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View Full Version : Beutler-Pyro: a different formula



Harald Leban
29-Sep-2009, 06:30
for those of you who are not tired to try a new and really interesting developer.....
Itīs a simple advanced formula that Iīve created with respect to the famous developers of Willy Beutler (Neofin).
I use a fairly new additive to that kind of chemism : Ammoniumthiocyanate - as a stabilizer that keeps the working solution free from aerial oxidation and opens new possibilities to staining pyro up to stand-developing processes.
In fact this pyro formula does have no negative aerial staining, maximum film speed (Acros reaches up to 400 ISO) and a great potential in sharpness and contrast compensation.
Working procedure is the same like in other staining developers: a slightly alcaline pre - and after-bath seems necessary.
There is one formula for 35mm films up to ULF, tray-, tank-, rotation- processing or stand-developing (best results in tank and stand-processing)
For LF users it could be helpful to use the working solution No.II - that brings enough density for alternative printing, too.
Maybe this is only of interest for a handful of "Pyronthusiasts" but worth a try....

I also got amazing results on Efke IR820/Aura - maximum speed 200 ISO through 695nm filter

allthebest

Harald

IanG
29-Sep-2009, 08:10
The ammonium thiocyanate is a silver solvent so will act like the Soodium Thiocyanate in DK-20.

It may cause Dichroic fogging with some films, but with the Ascorbic acid it's hard to guess without trying it.

Like Sandy King's Pyrocat this is similar in some ways to a few older Ilford and Aga formulae, the difference is that they were used at far higher concentrations.

Those comments aren't meant as a criticism, I feel quite strongly that the pyro developers are neglected by mainstream manufacturers, and offer a very good way to achieve the optimum in sharpness, fine garin & tonality.

Ian

Harald Leban
29-Sep-2009, 13:26
adding the Ammoniumthiocyanate (together with the Iodide) came to my mind when thinking back the time I processed film in reversal development where I used a formula (D-72) as first developer which had thiocyanate and iodide added and showed maximum+ filmspeed and affordable grain - so I implemented it to the pyro formula, too. I know about the characteristic of thiocyanate as a silver solvent but in this case it acts as something completely differernt, it seems if it masks the pyrogallol against the aerial oxidation and keeps itīs other advantages too.

sanking
29-Sep-2009, 14:19
adding the Ammoniumthiocyanate (together with the Iodide) came to my mind when thinking back the time I processed film in reversal development where I used a formula (D-72) as first developer which had thiocyanate and iodide added and showed maximum+ filmspeed and affordable grain - so I implemented it to the pyro formula, too. I know about the characteristic of thiocyanate as a silver solvent but in this case it acts as something completely differernt, it seems if it masks the pyrogallol against the aerial oxidation and keeps itīs other advantages too.


Since you have the ammonium thiocynate as a third solution I gather that it is not possible to include it in either the A or B stock solutions?

Sandy King

Harald Leban
29-Sep-2009, 21:04
Since you have the ammonium thiocynate as a third solution I gather that it is not possible to include it in either the A or B stock solutions?

Sandy King

I think itīs better to keep it separate because you have to stock it in a high concentration if you add it to the A or B parts and cross reactions may be possible .
The way I use it I can keep the same concentration in the working solution No. I and No. II (1g per liter).

Harald

cariocakev
20-Apr-2010, 12:27
Hello Harald,

I just wanted to note that I mixed and tried the formula last night, developing a couple rolls of Efke IR820c (not Aura) and a roll of still unused APX 100. I was excited to find the formula as an old Neofin Blau AND pyro aficionado.

The APX is lovely, sharp and has nice gradation. Can't wait to try it on other emulsions. The IR820c, shot at 100 with no filtering at all as an ISO 100 daylight film, is extremely thin -- at least two stops under (developed or exposed depending on perspective). Any ideas?

I admit one bad mistake. I was mixing half the formula as the dilutions are high, and as I often do in the kitchen I forgot to divide one ingredient as I measured them out. Solution A has twice the bisulfite.

I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that I might lose a bit of acutance with this error and developed anyway. But could that be what is afoot with the IR820?

Kevin,

A better cook than chemist.

mcfactor
5-May-2010, 07:05
What type of EDTA is it? Photographs formulary lists a couple different kinds: tetrasodium salt, disodium salt, and Ferric Sodium.

Has anyone else used this developer? im thinking about trying it out. I currently use Beutler's High Acutance Developer and am very happy with the sharpness. If I can keep the acutance and gain (or rather lose) some grain, this might be the perfect developer for me.

mcfactor
7-May-2010, 07:57
anyone?

cariocakev
7-May-2010, 08:04
I used the tetrasodium, which I understood to be functionally no different from the disodium. The ferric sodium I had never seen in a formula and assumed it to be for more rare purpose if it is functionally different.

cariocakev
16-Nov-2012, 20:40
So here's a followup two and a half years on. I have really come to appreciate this formula, particularly because it is the only developer that delivers true box speed for the Fomapan emulsions. Full speed for the Foma/Arista 100 and 400.

The developer has remarkable keeping qualities in half-full bottles. I am STILL using the original batch I mixed in May, 2010. It shows no signs of deterioration in that time, has not changed color nor lost its developing strength.

Regarding a couple of my notes above, i did eventually determine that the poor result from the Efke IR 820 (may it rest in peace) was due to old film, not a problem with the developer. And I note that in this time it is the same batch I mixed with accidentally double the bisulfite. Not sure if that has influenced either the good shadow detail in the Foma emulsions, or the keeping qualities. The next batch will be mixed to Harald's instructions and if I find a difference I'll update here.

But anyway: Thank you for sharing Harald!

marfa boomboom tx
17-Nov-2012, 03:14
the download (generated by foxit) is illegible; hence the formula should be reposted...

well, the iterweb found this:
Part AМетол 50гМетабисульфит натрия 8гПирогаллол 50гАскорбиновая кислота 10гЙодистый калий 1.5гВода 1лPart BТрилонБ 10гКарбонат натрия б/в 75гВода 1лATC50% р-р ammonium thiocyanate Рабочий раствор 10мл А 10мл В 960мл воды 2мл ATCВремя проявления25-50ASA 8.5min100-200ASA 10min400ASA 12min

obviously some CRs needed.

cariocakev
17-Nov-2012, 06:59
83717Here's the formula generated by Adobe Acrobat from Harald's file. It should be readable by Acrobat from version 4 up.

marfa boomboom tx
17-Nov-2012, 15:22
nope... the files come down as tiny tiny tiny tiny font .... useless...

mac 10. who the hell cares...

but of no consequence to me... I've got the formula... first stub is hanging...

marfa -- dust don't stand still around here.

cariocakev
17-Nov-2012, 21:13
In case of future problems:

Part A:
Metol 50g
Sodium bisulfite 8g
Pyrogallol 50g
Ascorbic acid 10g
Potassium iodide 1,5g
dissolved in 850ml water – filled up to 1 liter

Part B:
Sodium carbonate (anhydrous) 200g
EDTA 10g
dissolved in 850ml water – filled up to 1 liter

Stabilizer:
Ammonium thiocyanate (ATC) 50% sol in water

Working Solutions:
No 1: 10 ml a + 10 ml B + 960ml water +2 ml Stabilizer
No 2: 10ml A + 20ml B + 2ml Stabilizer

Process temp 22 degrees C agitation every minute

Times:



ISO
No. 1
No. 2


25-50
8.5 min.
6.5 min.


100-200
10 min.
8 min.


400
12 min.
10 min.


Efke IR820
10 min.
8min.

Keith Tapscott.
22-Nov-2012, 07:28
What does this formula do what PMK or Pyrocat doesn't do?

cariocakev
22-Nov-2012, 09:44
Harald could probably answer that better than I. But as I've said earlier in the thread, it has unbelievable keeping qualities (better even than the remarkable 510-Pyro and without the less-than-fun syrup mixing). It has better activity with the Foma emulsions that I can still get for my 2X3, less aerial oxidation so it does well with stand and rotary development. It has a good image-specific stain vs general stain ratio like other modern pyro devs. It appears to me to have very good acutance without excessive grain. Attached is an image from the Foma 100 (sold in 2X3 by Freestyle as Arista EDU Ultra). This is a scan from the negative. In the print the grain is of course less pronounced. (The scratch along the bottom is from the end space in the Nikor rack. Learning moment.)

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