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Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 12:53
Newb as in LF newb. If I'm shooting with any of my digital cameras I don't have a problem nailing exposure. Modern camera metering kicks butt. I shoot manual all of the time with the digital boxes. However, I recently (like yesterday and today) shot 10 rounds (my reloading life is leaking through) of Fujiroid B&W through my Linhof MT and getting the right exposure was not a walk in the park. Granted... the first 4 were eyeball (literally) and bracketed in. All of them were shot in bad light (4 stops on average). One was shot with the dark slide in :D That might have been the best of the lot come to think of it :cool: But... I used my Sekonics meter in spot metering mode. I chose f22 and the meter range was 1/125s on the sky to 1/2s on the barn. The barn was probably 85% or more of the exposure. I didn't expect to see the sky and barn both properly exposed. I also used my 1DsMK3 as a meter (70 - 200 lens @ 70mm gave me about the same image) and it told me 1/8s should work. To bring this to the point. Both 1/8s and definitely 1/2s were over exposed. I shot the very last sheet @ 1/30s and I probably could have stopped down 1/3 to 2/3 and been closer. Again- the sky was a loss no matter what I did if I wanted the barn to be right. If it hadn't been cloudy and high noon-ish I probably would had less exposure latitude to deal with. Once I was out of film I put the Sekonics in reflected light mode and starting at the barn, I walked away and measured exposure until I got 1/30s @ f22. As I expected, I was about 15' away from the barn toward the camera before I got to 1/30s @ f22 (ISO 100). I'm at a loss for how to meter a landscape image. I can't fire off a pack of fujiroid for testing purposes every time I want to shoot something. I need a way to home in on a good exposure setting for a given metering value.

^^ all of the above is leading up to the real question. Assuming that I'm not dealing with more exposure difference than film (or any sensor for that matter) can handle, what is the best way to meter a landscape image? Generally speaking. I realize there are a ton of unseen and site dependent factors in this question but there has to be some kind of starting point.

I had forgotten how much more there was to photography when shooting film... cool...

Peter K
15-Sep-2009, 13:19
^^ all of the above is leading up to the real question. Assuming that I'm not dealing with more exposure difference than film (or any sensor for that matter) can handle, what is the best way to meter a landscape image? Generally speaking. I realize there are a ton of unseen and site dependent factors in this question but there has to be some kind of starting point.
Exposure metering is an art of itself. Specially with a spotmeter one can get really nice results. But after working with many different exposure meters like Pentax spotmeter, LF-TTL-exposure meter like the Sinarsix or Profi-Select etc. an incedent light exposure meter like the Sekonic Studio (http://www.sekonic.com/products/Sekonic%20L-398A%20STUDIO%20DELUXE%20III.asp) is my favorite one. Light weight, no batteries and correct exposures with chromes and negs.

Peter

J_Tardiff
15-Sep-2009, 13:23
Exposure metering is an art of itself. Specially with a spotmeter one can get really nice results. But after working with many different exposure meters like Pentax spotmeter, LF-TTL-exposure meter like the Sinarsix or Profi-Select etc. an incedent light exposure meter like the Sekonic Studio (http://www.sekonic.com/products/Sekonic%20L-398A%20STUDIO%20DELUXE%20III.asp) is my favorite one. Light weight, no batteries and correct exposures with chromes and negs.

Peter

Funny coincidence, I purchased a Sekonic Studio about a month ago to replace the Digisix my eldest "accidentally" took back to college. Main use was for my TLR and as an adjunct to the meter on my M7II -- it's a stellar meter and I have started to use it more often with LF.

JT

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 13:28
My Sekonic (though battery operated) is an Incident / Spot meter. In studio, I used the incident meter, aimed from subject to camera, and trigger pocket wizards / studio lights for a reading. Handy... but... out in the fun world I'm at a loss for how to use an incident meter for landscapes. I get the idea of pointing it where I want to shoot and taking the reading but I'm not yet comfortable with the idea that it will work :)

I like the self powered aspect of the Sekonic Studio. Definitely something to add to the bag.

JohnGC
15-Sep-2009, 13:49
I need a way to home in on a good exposure setting for a given metering value.

^^ all of the above is leading up to the real question. Assuming that I'm not dealing with more exposure difference than film (or any sensor for that matter) can handle, what is the best way to meter a landscape image? Generally speaking. I realize there are a ton of unseen and site dependent factors in this question but there has to be some kind of starting point.

I had forgotten how much more there was to photography when shooting film... cool...


I think the Zone System is what you are looking for. You can search here for info on using it. There are also several good books explaining The Zone System including Ansel Adams' "The Negative". He developed the system, so I found his description the most helpful for me.

Welcome back to film and manual exposures. What could be more fun!

venchka
15-Sep-2009, 13:54
Michael,

Use the incident meter. Stand in front of your barn. Aim the white dome at the camera lens. Take a meter reading. Use that as a starting point.

Down the road, you can try reflected readings from the lightest area in the scene you wish to maintain detail and open 2-3 stops from what the meter says. Then meter the darkest area that you wish to preserve detail and close 1-2 stops from what the meter says. Hopefully the two readings will be 5 stops or less apart.

Clear as mud?

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 13:55
(slaps forehead) I've got all three of Ansel Adams books... I'll check it out

Honestly... when I first set my LMT up this morning I got a little frustrated. I don't have a good dark cloth yet so I was dealing with a towel flopping around in the wind. Then there were the rise / fall adjustments to figure out. :D But... by the time I was done... a general calm prevailed. Very relaxing to do if you just slow down and enjoy moment. Einstein was wrong... you can slow time down... just shoot LF

venchka
15-Sep-2009, 13:56
ps: Get a small notebook so you can write down the various exposure settings from the various parts of the scene.

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 13:57
Michael,

Use the incident meter. Stand in front of your barn. Aim the white dome at the camera lens. Take a meter reading. Use that as a starting point.

Down the road, you can try reflected readings from the lightest area in the scene you wish to maintain detail and open 2-3 stops from what the meter says. Then meter the darkest area that you wish to preserve detail and close 1-2 stops from what the meter says. Hopefully the two readings will be 5 stops or less apart.

Clear as mud?


Did that post shoot. That was about 2 stops off (over exposed) from what the final version was.

Fujiroid isn't giving me 5 stops of latitude... not B&W anyway... maybe that's another factor in the poop soup...

JohnGC
15-Sep-2009, 14:08
If you're shooting b&w, you can use a filter to work with the sky, again ask A.A in "The Negative" Those first two books should be your L.F. Bibles until you get back into the swing of things. Also a book called "View Camera Technique" is great for learning to use movements.

I have a real dark cloth for my 4x5 but shoot 11x14 with a small blanket. I've seen guys use "T" shirts in a pinch...anything works.

I'll second the idea of writing exposure info down in a notebook. I started when I was a newb, and now have years of great notes to refer to.

venchka
15-Sep-2009, 14:27
Smacks his head hard!

Another thing I didn't give you two weeks ago. Dark cloth.

JohnGC
15-Sep-2009, 14:30
lol You guys need to quit beating yourselves up!

venchka
15-Sep-2009, 14:30
You're right. :eek: :D ;) :)

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 14:35
Chapter 4, The Zone System (2nd paragraph)

"You may well ask why anyone would go to such pains to produce consistent negatives when we have printing papers available in several contrast grades and other printing controls that allow us to compensate for negatives of differing scales. While every such control has it's uses, it is best to strive for the optimum negative to minimize dependency on printing contrast control, since the tones of the print may be nest achieved with the use of normal contrast paper"

That right there is profound... and as true now as it was then... if not more so thanks the to plethora of bang bang shoot-em-up instant cameras...

Brian Ellis
15-Sep-2009, 14:52
Exposing b&w film with a spot meter is very easy. Find the darkest thing in the scene that contains detail or texture you want in the photograph. Meter it with your spot meter. Stop down one or two stops. Bang. That's your exposure. Meter the brightest area in the scene in which you want texture or detail. See how many stops separate it from the shadow area you metered. Bang. You have your development time (after appropriate testing).

There's usually no reason to meter anything but the aforementioned shadow and highlight. Those are all you can control. Everything in between is just going along for the ride. Occasionally you might want to meter something in between that's critical to the photograph just to see how it's going to look if you use the exposure determined from reading the darkest important shadow but not too often. You can go batty if you start reading a whole bunch of things other than the darkest important shadow and brightest important highlight.

Read the zone system chapter in Adams' book The Negative which you say you have. It explains the above in much more detail than I have but the above is what it all boils down to.

Incident meters are great for a studio, IMHO not so great in the field though many people like them there too, I just never have. It's so easy and simple with a spot meter in the field.

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 15:36
Exposing b&w film with a spot meter is very easy. Find the darkest thing in the scene that contains detail or texture you want in the photograph. Meter it with your spot meter. Stop down one or two stops. Bang. That's your exposure. Meter the brightest area in the scene in which you want texture or detail. See how many stops separate it from the shadow area you metered. Bang. You have your development time (after appropriate testing).

Does this hold up for color negative as well?

Michael Lloyd
15-Sep-2009, 15:39
Michael,

Use the incident meter. Stand in front of your barn. Aim the white dome at the camera lens. Take a meter reading. Use that as a starting point.

Down the road, you can try reflected readings from the lightest area in the scene you wish to maintain detail and open 2-3 stops from what the meter says. Then meter the darkest area that you wish to preserve detail and close 1-2 stops from what the meter says. Hopefully the two readings will be 5 stops or less apart.

Clear as mud?


Did that post shoot. That was about 2 stops off (over exposed) from what the final version was.

Fujiroid isn't giving me 5 stops of latitude... not B&W anyway... maybe that's another factor in the poop soup...

Sometimes I type the dumbest things... Sorry about that Wayne. I ended up where you said to go through trial and error :D

h2oman
15-Sep-2009, 16:09
Is it possible you are not shooting at the correct film speed? I'm pretty new to this whole business as well, but most people seem to use an actual film speed of about half the manufacturer's suggested.

I used a simple system compiled from bits and pieces I gathered. I first went out with my film and shot something in the shade that I would want to be dark but show a fair amount of detail if it were in a larger scene including bright areas. (What I intended to be Zone III) I shot at ISOs of 200 to 400 by 1/3 stops (what is that, 200, 250, 320, 400?) and developed all of them. I preferred the look from the sheet exposed at 200, so I've been using that as my film speed.

I then shot multiple sheets of a bright are that I would normally want to be bright but show plenty of detail (Zone VII) and developed for different times to determine developing time. I've pretty well nailed down my normal (N) developing time, but have not figured out my N-1 and N+1 yet. Still, I've shot a bunch of things that came out fine with normal developing.

I expect I might fine tune this as time goes on, but it is serving me well so far. My favorite reference for the zone system as a beginner was Steve Mulligan's "Black and White Photography: A Practical Guide". I checked out Adams' "The Negative" and Fred Pickers "Zone something Workshop" and didn't care much for either as a beginner. I got Mulligan's book through an interlibrary loan and liked it well enough to buy a used copy through Amazon. His description of the zone system was very easy for me to follow.

Good luck!

h2oman
15-Sep-2009, 17:40
Maybe most of my previous post was irrelevant, now that I think about it. I'll still stand by the recommendation for Mulligan's book thought.

ki6mf
15-Sep-2009, 19:09
I agree with venchka on the zone system. A spot meter always is reading a zone 5 18% gray card regardless of how light or dark the subject is. Meter the darkest part of you scene and change two stops/zones. For example assuming F32 @ 2 seconds I would change shutter speeds two stops to 1/2 second at f32. Faster shutter meas less light will make everything lighter and more importantly get the right exposure for your shadow areas. If you research the zone system what you then end up doing is film speed test and development time test. Use developer time to increase or decrease contrast based on development time tests, calibration tests, and what the highlight meter reading says. Check this forum for how to do the calibrations.

Leonard Evens
17-Sep-2009, 06:48
On a clear day, a spot reading high above the horizon should come close to Zone V. So if you use that to set your exposure, you should come pretty close.