LF Opinions: 4x5 Field Camera for approx $1000, used or new

[rugenius]

The majority of all photography I have been accomplishing over the last 23 years has been with a Rollei 3.5F TLR. In that time I've learned how to get the niche shots that are representative of my own style,... short focal, mostly people and landscape, compressed, short DOF, unreal imagery...
Anyway,... The time has come for a new adventure...
My wife and I have had other odd ball vintage cameras that we refurbished and used including a Speed Graphic. Nothing satisfying to date...

We would like to spend approx $1000 or less for a new or used LF camera system. Problem is.... soooo many darned choices, metal, and wood version,...
Being able to get into the field is essential.
Compactness is probably more important than weight to some degree.
Quality is an absolute. But that doesn't mean sacrificing practicality versus snooty.
The lens selection will likely be as follows:
80 mm wide to 300mm Macro/ perhaps 375mm tele.
Non-experienced with telephoto work. Most all work has been accomplished using macro and portrait lenses.
Film: Velvia 50, XXTechPanXX, Ilford PanF 50, TMax 400, Ilford 3200, have been favorite media.

We are ready to expand a bit and explore other techniques. Complete versatility and freedom of movement is highly desired. I have an R&D machine shop at work and could make widgets as necessary to complement the experience...

I have contemplated used versions of:
Toyo 45AII
Canham DLC 4X5
Ebony 45SU
ETC,...
New cameras we have glanced at are:
Chamonix
Shen Hao

In short,... I am dumbfounded by the multitude of forum responses and cannot see through the trees to get to the forest.
Please help.
Thx,
Bill
:)

[Ari]

I paid about $1000 for a Linhof Technika III (version 5) and a Fujinon 210. You will not find a more durable, well-built camera. It has limited movements compared to some other cameras, but it will last a lifetime.

[Robert A. Zeichner]

What were your objections to the Speed Graphic? I enjoy shooting with a Rollei 3.5f as well and have also done some limited work with a Graflex RB Super D 4x5 SLR (which I have up for sale on this forum btw). Working with any 4x5 field camera is going to be very different experience from a roll film TLR. Is your quest for a bigger negative or a more contemplative, slower process? The image below is one I made with the Graflex, handheld. 190 mm Kodak Ektar lens.

[Frank Petronio]

If you find a clean used Linhof Technika IV (the III with qualifications) they are the closest thing in a large format camera to your Rolleiflex, in terms of quality and "personality". You may need to budget for a new bellows on a 60-year old camera, and it is always nicer to find one already with a lens properly cammed to the rangefinder, so finding a good user for $1000 will require patience.

But all the cameras you mentioned are excellent and since people have to use a camera for a bit to decide whether it is for them, I recommend promiscuity, in the camera sense of course.

[eddie]

i consider my chamonix the end all cure all. my friend just got a super nice tech camera. that looks awesome as well. but i think he paid like $2000 for it. IMO the $700 i paid for my new chamonix gives it the edge.

down side of the Cham is you have to wait to get one or buy it used (both will run you about the same money.)

i have used 65mm lens (tight. oi would have loved a recessed lens board) and use a 90mm regularly. i have an extension piece that allows me to shoot longer lenses. at 3 pounds it is small, light and has plenty of movements. i can fit the camera, a small lens, and 4-6 film holders or a grafmatic, and my pentax spot meter into a tamrac expedition 3 backpack (an absurdly small 35mm camera sized bag).

hope this helps.

eddie

[Bob Salomon]

You are in Santa Cruz, very near Palo Alto as well as Monterey. A good large format dealer is in Monterey (Cameras West) and two are in Palo Alto (K&S and Bear Images). Rather then reading multiple personal opinions why not just take a drive and look at all kinds at these stores. Not only that, they all have people who know how they work so you can make a choice based on what you see and feel. Do note, it would be very unlikely that you would find a new camera at the price you want at a dealer but they will have lots of used ones.

[Brian Ellis]

I won't suggest a specific camera but rather an approach you might take to narrowing down the field.

Since you seem to have a good idea of the lens focal length range you'll be using, that's a good place to start winnowing out cameras. For the 300mm lens you mention you should have about 15 inches or more of bellows extension so you could eliminate any camera that doesn't have at least that much (and for your macro work you might want even longer. For 80mm (75mm is actually much more common) you'll want a camera that will allow you to compress the bellows easily and still leave some room for movements, hopefully without need for a recessed lens board but the recessed board isn't critical, they're a little bit of a pain to use but not that bad in my experience. That's likely to eliminate any camera with a really long bellows (e.g. ones in the 20 inch and up range). Since you like wide angles, and might some day want to go shorter than 75mm, you could eliminate cameras that won't accept a bag bellows.

Since you do field work you might pick a camera weight and eliminate any over that weight. For me 6 lbs was about the most I wanted to carry and 4 lbs is better (you'll notice a 2 lb difference even though it's relatively small percentage of the total weight in a back pack).

Then think about features. What movements does it have (for the landscape and portrait work you mention extensive movements aren't needed but IMHO any LF camera should have front tilt, swing, and rise and back tilt and swing. That would eliminate some of the LF cameras that have no back movements. Does it come with a Fresnel lens on the viewing screen - if not, that could be an added expense down the road.

These aren't hard and fast rules, just a possible approach you might take to narrowing down the field. There are work-arounds for most of them. E.g. you can use a telphoto lens to reduce the 15 inch bellows length I mention so if you found a camera that had everything you wanted except 15 inches of bellows, you might go for it. I think the most important thing is to not get too hung up on your first LF camera. As Frank said, until you've used a LF camera for a while it's hard to figure out what's really important to you and what isn't. So your first one likely won't be your last if you find you really like LF photography and if you buy a used camera in excellent condition you should be able to sell it for about what you paid for it.

[Archphoto]

You want both a 75mm and a 300mm with macro and that cries to me "Monorail", but that is not what you want it seems....

A 75mm and a field: the Shen Hao's, any time: lots of mevements, low weight and solid build quality at the price of half of the Chamonix.
I got my almost new cased HZH45-IIA for € 500,- including shipping at the beginning of the year without a lens as an addition to my Sinar P2 8x10/4x5 set.
I did not and do not have the money for a Linhof Master Technika, and even then, the Shen has more movement front and aft compared to the Master.

Sinar versus Shen: the Sinar will handle both the 75mm and the 300mm in macro, but is a heavy studio camera, esp with the 300 in macro.
The Shen will give you lots of great shots outdoors, but keep in mind that shooting with LF is diferent compared to shooting with a Rolleiflex, I have a 2.8F Planar aswell.

Rethinking again I am afraid.....

Peter

[Don Hutton]

The image below is one I made with the Graflex, handheld. 190 mm Kodak Ektar lens.
On the west side of Cranbrook?

[tgtaylor]

Bill,

My recommendation would be to get a technical field - one that has rise, fall, tilt, swing and shift on the front standard, and tilt and swing on the rear standard. The Toyo is an excellent choice (I own and use one and can personally vouch for it) as well as a number of other makes.

The last time I was in Camera West they had a number of used 4x5's to look at and I imagine they also carry new models as well. Would be a good idea to take a hands on look at them before making the plunge. IMO, it's important that you like the looks of your camera as well as its handling and features.

This is a good time to buy used. Prices are cheap!

Thomas

[rugenius]

Bob Salomon wrote: A good large format dealer is in Monterey (Cameras West) and two are in Palo Alto (K&S and Bear Images)

Thx Bob,... I think that's a good idea, Palo Alto is just a skip away (40 mins)... even though I really hate using the retail shop as a test bed knowing that I'll be very unlikely to purchase from them. But it's not as bad as buying from Costco and returning the item after use...

The Rolleiflex, in all of it's wisdom and mechanical silk, is not something I'm trying to duplicate in large format. I'll admit,... I do want to get some unreal photos of people in unreal landscape at max aperture and perhaps that goes against the grain of typical min aperture large format landscape photography. But, it's just one "style" that I enjoy.
Larger native film format, and the ability to do so many things not possible within the limited scope of the TLR is what we hope to accomplish.
I'd like to get a lightweight/ precise yet sturdy camera. Traditional, or novel, it doesn't matter.
Sloppy fit and plastic is a complete turn-off, but heavy cast metals do not seem to fit the Field camera purpose either.
Conversely, I looked hard at a few used Calhan DLC 4X5 but I couldn't hold one in my hands. It is difficult to fathom how this camera holds up to wind and flex but I simply don't have the experience to substantiate the performance compared to a more beefy camera like the Linhoff.
Maybe that's a bad perception as well? The last time I held a Linhoff T3 it seemed heavy but mechanical like a Swiss watch...
On the "budget end", I've previewed the Chamonix and wonder if it is 80% or better on par with the Canhan in terms of field/ backpack sturdiness and ability to launch quickly into a shot as needed on the go.

Bottom line is I tend to stick with a selection after careful homework.
I do not want to experiment with several camera versions until I "get it right".
We'd rather investigate the product wisely, purchase it, and explore it.
The brunt of money will not be spent on the bare-bones camera anyway.
Within the current budget, the cornucopia of desired lenses will be the largest stumbling block for sure, + accessories.

Keep the comments rolling,... much appreciated.

[Bob Salomon]

Then you should look at Linhof's field camera. The TK or the current TKs. Cameras West had used ones in both of their stores last time I was there. Bear Images also had some.

[Drew Bedo]

My 4x5 kit is a Zone VI field camera (wood) with 90, 150 and 210 mm lenses. I bought the whole outfit along with the accessories needed to shoot with all packed in a LowePro backpack for $1300 and a hand-shake at a camera show in 2000. Similar outfits show up on e-bay from time to time for about that, give-or-take. Used gear is the way to go untill you have worked in large format for a while, and know what you really want.

[Darren Kruger]

Thx Bob,... I think that's a good idea, Palo Alto is just a skip away (40 mins)... even though I really hate using the retail shop as a test bed knowing that I'll be very unlikely to purchase from them. But it's not as bad as buying from Costco and returning the item after use...

Keeble & Schucat has some LF cameras available to rent so you can try before you buy with no guilty conscience. They list (http://www.kspphoto.com/media/rental_pdfs/rental-brochure.pdf) a Toyo Field AII and a Sinar P2 4x5 (monorail) and have lenses from 47mm-300mm. Not quite the models suggested by others above but they should give you an idea.

If you want to go this route you should call them at 650-327-8511 and check availability of the equipment.

-Darren

[Robert A. Zeichner]

On the west side of Cranbrook?

You've got a sharp eye Don. Did you ever receive Elmar?

[Dave Wooten]

Wisner Tech field should fit your criteria.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

To shoot environmental portraits, you need press or technical field camera with an accurate rangefinder. As well as a low end Technika, you might look for a Meridian or a Super Graphic. All have rotating backs, and will be within your budget.

[venchka]

Based on the shopping experience of myself and a friend: He bought a Shen Hao with narry a mark on it and I bought 125mm and 250mm Fujinon-W lenses for $825 total. Add a 90/8.0 S.A. for $200. All within the last year.

That said, I'm sitting here with a Linhof Technika V minus the cams for the rangefinder, gripless and it still amazes me. It is very much the equal of other German brands. Said by the owner of 2 M5 bodies. There is something different about German cameras. Even old ones that weren't treated nicely.

Good luck.

[Glen Krueger]

I'm selling off my recently deceased father's Plaubel Peco Profia (and many lenses, etc.) on eBay right now. This includes a complete camera with case as one of the items, and no one has bid on it yet at $300.00 starting price. But it's no lightweight: the case and camera weigh about 50 lbs. I believe it meets all of the above recommendations and descriptions, and then some. Except being lightweight, compact and easy to handle, of course.

[Frank Petronio]

I saw that auction -- it is a really nice system, although Plaubel wasn't popular in the USA it is as well made as any of the top European cameras (Sinar, Arca, Linhof) and that is a very complete kit so you wouldn't need some oddball piece... and Glen is a long time regular, a good guy to deal with...

Don't forget lensboards, I am not sure if I saw them listed.

[rugenius]

Well,...:cool: :cool: :cool:
I followed through and purchased the used Chamonix 045N that was for sale in the Large Format classifieds.
There were so many positive comments about this camera make in multiple forums.
Initially, I was reluctant to purchase a Chinese "spin-off" of some other camera. This was especially true for the Shen Hao version.
Over a period of time, looking at the reviews, user demand, forum comments, photographs, and physical data... I realized this camera is certainly excellent quality and meets the utility requirements I was searching for in a collapsible 4X5 field camera.
Even though the manufacturer is going to stop production of this model and make some new and improved version I feel comfortable that it is no less in utility, construction, and reliability than other "brand" cameras in the same price range of $1000 give or take (new and used).

Thanks for all the forum advice!
I'll be back...

Bill English