Where to get a good 4x5" drum scan? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Lenny Eiger

5-Sep-2009, 13:13

Tim, Preston is not looking for a scanner. Bill, I do not recommend Lenny Eiger. I do recommend West Coast Imaging. They won't scratch your work; they won't feed you BS at every turn; and they are currently having a sale:

https://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/services/more/specials.htm

Eric,

This is inappropriate. You and I had a disagreement. From my perspective you sent me a scratched neg and wanted to blame it on me. I don't feed anyone BS, you are the only person I have ever had a problem with in all the years I have been scanning, and if I had a similar problem with you I wouldn't put it out in a public forum, especially when people were asking for the specific kind of service I offer.

Not to mention that the scratch was so minimal that it was a piece of cake to fix it in Photoshop, less than 5 mines, which I had done for you, free of charge. I have dealt with other people's scratches, that are real scratches and that's another matter. You were petty, anal about a stupid scratch, that I didn't create, and rude. And I refunded the cost of that scan.

Lenny

c.carlson

5-Sep-2009, 13:25

Tim, Preston is not looking for a scanner. Bill, I do not recommend Lenny Eiger. I do recommend West Coast Imaging. They won't scratch your work; they won't feed you BS at every turn; and they are currently having a sale:

https://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/services/more/specials.htm
Well Tim, Lenny has never scratched a neg of mine in 5 years, I have seen him at his Aztec Premier Scanner working I can not imagine how a scratch would come out of his work flow. Accidents can happen, but with Lenny’s craftsmanship, a scratch would be quite rare. I trust Lenny to give me a great scan and advise, which for me is probably more valuable than the scan. Don’t look a gift scan in the mouth!
Craig Carlson www.craigcarlson.net - check out all of Lenny’s scans

Tim Povlick

5-Sep-2009, 13:44

Hi Craig,

FYI that was Eric who made the comment about the scratch.

Agree Lenny has never scratched any film I've sent him to scan either. With the drum mounting it would be rather difficult to do actually. I can speak from experience as I have an Aztec Premier also. If I didn't have one, Lenny would be handling my scans.

Concerning scratches I have been cutting Kodak PanatomicX-II into sheet film and an really surprised how much film can take before scratching.

_ .. --
TiM

bob carnie

5-Sep-2009, 14:26

Not really sure how a scratch would happen with Lenny's type of scanner.
What may be the case is that due to the high resolution of his unit , scratches not seen with other scanning methods are present with his higher quality scan.
I have seen this time and time again when printing for others, that when a negative is put in an enlarger, with glass carriers , condensor light source, and apo lenses, scratches never seen before rear their ugly heads. Lots of bad processing out there that usually is the root cause.

Tim, Preston is not looking for a scanner. Bill, I do not recommend Lenny Eiger. I do recommend West Coast Imaging. They won't scratch your work; they won't feed you BS at every turn; and they are currently having a sale:

https://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/services/more/specials.htm

Eric James

5-Sep-2009, 17:12

Tim and Bob, I don't believe that it was the Aztec Scanner that was responsible for damaging the slide. The operator admits to being overwhelmed by a three-hundred-scan order at the time he handled my transparency.

I'm on the fence as to whether or not my post was "inappropriate". Every time I see the image, every time I see Lenny Eiger's name on this forum, my blood boils. It's not "a" scratch. There is "a" 2mm scratch on the emulsion side; on the flip side there are dozens of hairline scratches. Perhaps these hairline scratches would be hard to see if he had bothered to clean the fluid off the slide after scanning, but he didn't because, in his words: he noticed the scratching and was afraid that cleaning the slide would make it worse, so he returned it to me covered in scanning fluid.

With respect to me being "anal": You have no idea what I went through to capture that image! Do I hold my breath when I'm inspecting a slide that is not in a protective sleeve - yes. Do I rest a loupe on a slide that isn't in a protective sleeve - no. Did I choose a scratched slide to submit for a $135 (!) scan - no. Am I anal about how my transparencies are handled - perhaps I am.

With respect to me being "rude": since I examined the slide upon its return I haven't spoken with him; I've looked back over the emails between us and I see nothing that could be characterized as rude, except perhaps for the salutation, "you should be ashamed of yourself". (In a recent thread he suggested/intimated that a respected forum member called him an "opinionated, self-important asshole", so he seems to have an irrational way of reading between the lines.)

With respect to West Coast Imaging: You can ship them a package and not worry about it sitting on the owner's front porch until he returns; you can go to their website and download a professional order form where you can specify your file size, color space and file type; and they won't manipulate your scans by careless spotting or unsolicited curves applications.

Ron Marshall

5-Sep-2009, 17:14

I have always been completely satisfied with the quality and service from Danny Burk:

http://www.dannyburk.com/

Lenny Eiger

5-Sep-2009, 18:03

Tim and Bob, I don't believe that it was the Aztec Scanner that was responsible for damaging the slide. The operator admits to being overwhelmed by a three-hundred-scan order at the time he handled my transparency.

Being overwhelmed doesn't mean I mistreat people's film. I'm a photographer as well.

Am I anal about how my transparencies are handled - perhaps I am.

So am I.

With respect to West Coast Imaging: You can ship them a package and not worry about it sitting on the owner's front porch until he returns; you can go to their website and download a professional order form where you can specify your file size, color space and file type; and they won't manipulate your scans by careless spotting or unsolicited curves applications.

So I am to be maligned because I have a home office? I wonder how many other experienced scanner operators have the same problem. Personally I'd rather work with an expert with a home office than a lab type atmosphere where you are just one more job that has to get out the door. However, it also means that I am right here, 99% of the time, just as much as a lab.

You want to air this out here, fine. No one manipulated your scans with careless spotting or unsolicited curves applications. Careless spotting doesn't ever happen here. I've been spotting for a very long time, silver, platinum and now PhotoShop. My rule is that anything attempted disappears entirely and totally. The giant scratch you reference I have seen plenty of times from a lab or other mishandling mishap. A grain of sand or other debris gets stuck in between. That and the other scratches were there when that piece of film got here. And - I spotted it out for you with one flick of the pen on the tablet. It was nothing. There is nothing that would have shown on any printer made now or in the future. The long scratches I spent a very long time trying to find. Finally located them up at 200%.

As to a curve adjustment, I often toss a very slight curve adjustment layer on an image when the client is a new one. I want to make sure I have done a good job and made a scan that is soft enough to have every tone available and to be able to be manipulated with slight adjustments to print perfectly in their style. Often clients are appreciative to they have something they can use to start with so I leave it there. It's easily thrown out. I never make an adjustment without a layer on anything.

Finally, you were worried that someone else who actually knows how to spot very well would ruin what? No one with even minimal experience with the clone tool would have had difficulty spotting that little ding. You don't have the equipment to analyze what you are talking about, you made some reference to spotting only at a certain percentage, in one direction or another. It's meaningless, you apparently don't have the experience to know when its easy. Further, you don't even have a printer. You send them out to be printed by someone else on a Chromira-type printer, with shiny stuff that isn't even as high resolution as an inkjet. The scratches would never have shown on a machine like that. certainly not the spotting.

it is rude. Your lack of knowledge and experience ought to make you second guess yourself just a bit before you malign someone else in public who is not only knowledgeable but was happy to fix whatever it was that happened to your neg. I was on your side, doing what I could and the scans were beautiful. I'm sorry your film got hurt, but it didn't happen here. We don't have to agree. Maybe the tooth fairy got mad at you - maybe something in the packaging slid in there - it doesn't matter. Your sunset image had some nice colors, I'm sure you feel it may never be there again, but at least you got a nice scan, presumably you had someone print it and I hope you got a nice print.

Lenny

jhogan

5-Sep-2009, 18:06

I'd like to recommend Larry Stein at Warp 9 imaging in El Cajon (San Diego area); he is very skilled on his Aztek Premiere. In addition to being a nice guy, Larry is a talented photographer who really cares about the finished product and, best of all, his prices are very competitive:

http://www.w9imaging.com/scanning.php

Rick Russell

5-Sep-2009, 21:20

I heartily recommend Joseph Luppino of www.pixelnation.us. Although I reside in the Los Angeles area I send my scan work to Joseph, who is located in Pennsylvania. Joseph also uses the Aztec Premier, which I understand is the state of the art in drum scanners.

Rick Russell
richardrussell-1@ca.rr.com

Tim Povlick

5-Sep-2009, 21:46

Hi Eric,

I am sorry that you have a scratched piece of film but from Lenny's description he's pulled all the data off the film, and hence it's fully recoverable. Personally, If I had a film with a 2mm scratch on it and had a full scan with correction, I would not give it a second thought.

Tim and Bob, I don't believe that it was the Aztec Scanner that was responsible for damaging the slide. The operator admits to being overwhelmed by a three-hundred-scan order at the time he handled my transparency.

That is my point exactly, the procedure for drum scanning makes scratching film virtually impossible. There is no movement / friction between overlay / drum / film.

I'm on the fence as to whether or not my post was "inappropriate". Every time I see the image, every time I see Lenny Eiger's name on this forum, my blood boils. It's not "a" scratch. There is "a" 2mm scratch on the emulsion side; on the flip side there are dozens of hairline scratches. Perhaps these hairline scratches would be hard to see if he had bothered to clean the fluid off the slide after scanning, but he didn't because, in his words: he noticed the scratching and was afraid that cleaning the slide would make it worse, so he returned it to me covered in scanning fluid.

I feel this post in not appropriate on several levels. Lenny has handled a lot of film over the years w/o mishap, you even mention he was working a large 300 count film scan. I am not hearing any complaints from that job nor any others. Even if I knew absolutely / positively he was responsible for the scratch I wouldn't air this in public as I learned a long time ago not to mess with a man's / woman's lively hood. I would just say be more careful next time.

Home office / pro-lab / fancy download forms: I've used both Lenny / pro-lab with fancy forms. Well, Lenny always beats the pro-labs. Recent experience with two different pro-labs bears this out. He's printed some difficult astro-photography for me and did s brilliant job. Also, if there is any question about the work, he's on the phone with me checking into it.

Take Care,

Tim

Bill L.

7-Sep-2009, 05:05

Thanks for all the recommendations! Looks like I've got a lot of places to start checking out. I'm really looking forward to seeing what a drum scan can do compared to the 750!

Bill

Peter De Smidt

7-Sep-2009, 07:59

A good judge of a service provider is how they respond when an issue does arise. Lenny did the right thing in this case, whether the scratch happened in his care or not. I'm more likely to send Lenny some work as a result of this incident than I was before I read about it.

mandoman7

15-Sep-2009, 20:17

Back in the old days when I shot a lot of commercial film the lab that I used routinely scratched transparencies, and they were the best in town, frustratingly (hinterlands). I had other labs do amazing things, too. One lab had the temerity to burn down with the film from the biggest shoot I had had to date (involving models and an airplane on a tarmac).

Not to make light of the situation, but, things happen when you hand your negs over to another person. It'll drive you nuts but it going to happen occasionally. If the service provider is a quality person, it could be an opportunity to form a bond around the civility that's maintained.

bob carnie

16-Sep-2009, 06:14

Probably some of the best advice I have read here and on other sites in a very long time.

Back in the old days when I shot a lot of commercial film the lab that I used routinely scratched transparencies, and they were the best in town, frustratingly (hinterlands). I had other labs do amazing things, too. One lab had the temerity to burn down with the film from the biggest shoot I had had to date (involving models and an airplane on a tarmac).

Not to make light of the situation, but, things happen when you hand your negs over to another person. It'll drive you nuts but it going to happen occasionally. If the service provider is a quality person, it could be an opportunity to form a bond around the civility that's maintained.

Brian_A

20-Sep-2009, 19:39

Bill L,

Chrome in Georgetown does great scanning work. Up in Baltimore there's a place called Full Circle and I think he does drum scanning there.

http://www.chromeimaging.com/home.html

-Brian

Michael L

22-Sep-2009, 00:22

I had some 4x5 drum scans done by www.nancyscans.com, located in Chatham, NY.

They were perfect.

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 13:43

I had some 4x5 drum scans done by www.nancyscans.com, located in Chatham, NY.

They were perfect.

There are many really good scanner operators here on this list. That's just insulting. Nancyscans made their mark by offering $20 scans.

I'm glad you think they're perfect, but there is another level available - that are done by experienced operators, almost always also photographers, a number of whom have been mentioned in this thread.

Lenny

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 14:29

Lenny,

What Michael wrote was not insulting. He was simply relating his experience. The NancyScan operators might have tons of scanning experience.

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 15:02

Lenny,

What Michael wrote was not insulting. He was simply relating his experience. The NancyScan operators might have tons of scanning experience.

In one sense I don't disagree at all with your view. I don't for a moment believe he was trying to be insulting. When I look at it from another perspective, it mirrors the conversation a while back about how great Costco or Walmart's printing was. There are world-class printers on this list.

What if you are standing next to the world's top heart surgeon. Someone says - hey, this special red tea can fix all heart problems. It might be helpful to reduce cholesterol, but, no it can't fix all heart problems, sometimes you have to do surgery. It doesn't appreciate the knowledge and experience this person would have spent years and years acquiring.

Or you are standing next to Michael Jordan and want to suggest some high school kid is going to break all his records - he had better be pretty good.

They have a school cafeteria where my daughter goes to school. What if some kid says wow, great pasta! They are reporting satisfaction just as the poster did. However, you and I both know that what they are serving is disgusting Kraft garbage macaroni and cheese. The kid doesn't know what kind of food is good for them, or apparently even what good food actually tastes like. There's a level mismatch. If I suggested that the food was great - to someone who cooked at a very good restaurant and compared them - it would be insulting.

I'm clearly struggling at trying to describe this concept. I don't thinking I am communicating very well. Doesn't help I have a whopping headache. I apologize if this is rambling....

It's always possible that there is someone at Nancyscans that knows how to use their machine. It's highly unlikely that they are a photographer, it's more likely that its some underpaid tech who is told "get it out the door" and "there isn't that much margin in this, get it moving". On the other hand, we have Sandy King, Bruce Watson, Tyler Boley, Luppino might be around, Larry Stein (I think), I'll include myself, and a whole host of other folks I don't know personally who do great custom work that's a level above - whether you want to talk about Nancyscans or scans from India, or Walmart.

Lenny

Brian_A

23-Sep-2009, 15:38

I wouldn't go knocking any companies scanning abilities, even if you do go above and beyond, until you've had personal experience with them. How do you know that they don't provide high end quality? Have you seen their work for yourself? (I'm just curious, I've never dealt with either you nor them.) If you have, then feel free to unload, but until then I wouldn't slander someone just because they offer lower prices. Walmart offers lower prices (somtimes) on the same thing I that can buy at Best Buy. Is it any better or does the product work any different? Nope.

And for the record, I've eaten at some pretty high priced eateries that feature in-demand chefs and could easily say that some of the dishes were better at street markets in Singapore for far less money. Maybe I'm just crazy or my palette is haywire. That said, nine out of ten of the dishes I'd say I really enjoyed at the higher priced place - but I went there because other people said it was good, not because it was high priced - figuring I'd get more quality.

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 16:01

Lenny,

You're surgery analogy isn't very accurate. I've talked to a number of accomplished photographers who say they have gotten great scans from NancyScans, and so there's evidence that they do good work. In your example there isn't good evidence that the tea will give the required result. (I've never used NancyScans.)

The Michael Jordan example isn't very good. Everyone acknowledges that he was one of the best basketball players ever. There's no similar consensus about scanning operators and equipment.

Regarding high school cafeteria food versus high cuisine, there's no reason for anyone to be insulted. The opinion might be do to ignorance or reflect a subjective taste. You tend to be rather dogmatic about what counts as great art, as you were when you asked someone if Stieglitz would've liked it. Well, Stieglitz wasn't all that impressed with Weston. It seems that knowledgeable and reasonable people can disagree about artistic matters.

It's irrelevant whether the scanner is a photographer. I know a couple of photoshop operators who aren't photographers. However, they are first rate photoshop pros, mainly because that is all that they do. I'd match up their PS skills against any of the photographer/photoshoppers here. It's the same thing with scanning. It's possible that all NancyScan drum scanner operators do all workday is make drum scans. If so, I bet they're probably pretty good.

I know that one of your reasons for posting is to promote your business, and that's fine. But sometimes it's a bit like a MacClaren dealer butting in to every discussion about sports cars saying something like, "Sure, a Porsche 911 is a pretty good car, if you're satisfied with that sort of thing, but there are cars at a much higher level out there when you're ready for some quality."

Jim Graves

23-Sep-2009, 16:13

I've had one experience with Lenny. It was at the PHOTO3 conference last year in Colorado. Lenny was there with his scanner offering free scans of large format negatives as a demonstration. I had always been very skeptical about the high price of drum scans ... having used Epson flat bed scanners and gotten good results.

I took a difficult 4x5 negative to Lenny to try the free scan. He literally spent 45 minutes with me demonstrating the process (the total time exceeded an hour - including the final scan run.) He did sampling scans to make quality adjustments from several areas in the negative and other adjustments that today I cannot recall. The scan times were considerable in and of themselves ... even without the sampling and adjustments.

I came away from that experience a true believer in the quality ... and reasonableness of the high cost of drum scans. The scan I received was so far superior to the flat bed scans I was used to that I went down the next morning and gave him a check for his usual fee.

Having seen the full process ... the time, effort, equipment, and judgment involved it is hard to believe that anybody can give that level of service for $20. It may be that you can do a drum scan for $20 ... and maybe you can get "passable" results for the average person for $20, but if you are really looking for the level of service Lenny (and, no doubt some of the other scan providers mentioned above) are offering I don't think that is possible.

If you ever get the chance ... go watch one of these guys work ... then maybe you can understand some of the frustration in some of the posts above.

Brian_A

23-Sep-2009, 16:27

I'm sure the guy does wonderful work. My point is, is that some people can afford to do it cheaper when they have bulk and capability. Until I see a 100% crop of each one, side by side, the argument is purely superficial to me. Talk is all nice, but I want to see the difference. Unfortunately I'm not going to drop $200+ to figure it out... At least right now. Maybe we can get Lenny and Michael to post some test crops for us to see? I guess one really couldn't compare that much if they were different negatives. Maybe Lenny will scan said negative for testing purposes? :D

-Brian

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 16:42

But NancyScan drum scans aren't $20. 16 bit files up to 200 mb are $79. For bigger scans, you have to call for a price.

bob carnie

23-Sep-2009, 16:44

WOW

Nancy Scans has been around for quite awhile, with experience galore, and years back were in the same league as Repro Scans that is now part of National Geographic.
If fact I do not think they ever left that level that level of competence.
This company set the mark for scans for years and I believe that their experience level is probably beyond most if not all on this site.
I am sure they are world class and have the thousands of scans under their belt to prove it.
This company IMO is a solid bet, and I find it offensive to downplay their role in the scanning market. Thousands of satisfied clients prove them to be a top notch organization and I would have no problem sending any work to their organization.

Aahx

23-Sep-2009, 16:57

As the topic made me curious I went to Nancyscans site and there prices are a bit higher than $20 a scan fyi. It seems to depend on the megabite size of the scan (cheapest being $50 for 100 meg or less file). And anything over 200 megabites is a call for quote price. So they very well could be in the same price range or even higher than some of the others listed her at the larger file sizes that large format scanning tends to produce. Mind you I am not endorsing them, just stating what I have observed by looking at there website. And while I do understand what Lenny is trying to convey, venting frustrations on a public forum tends not to be good for a company's PR image <hint, hint>. Also please take my remarks as constructive critisim only.

Bruce Watson

23-Sep-2009, 17:14

It's irrelevant whether the scanner is a photographer.

I was actually trying to stay out of this thread. So much for my intentions. :rolleyes:

I'll have to disagree with this idea. I think it matters a good deal if the scanner operator is a photographer. And I'll tell you why.

When scanning, the operator gets to make choices. Actually, quite a few choices. They all skew the results of scanning in some direction or other. If you don't have a good idea what the photographer is trying to accomplish, you'll likely take the middle road for most choices. You won't be wrong. Than again, you won't be right either. And the photographer can probably use Photoshop to get from your scan file to their vision in the print with more or less success.

If you are a photographer however, it increases your odds of understanding what the client is trying to do with a photograph. You can therefore push the resulting scan file toward that goal, and make the client's job of moving from the scan file to the final print a little easier, and the final print quality a little higher.

And since we are making and shooting down analogies... An engineer can design a tennis racket. If he/she doesn't actually play tennis, the resulting racket will likely do everything acceptably but excel at nothing. If the engineer plays tennis and therefore has some experience actually using a racket, it will probably do everything acceptably but some things better than others, because a tennis player understands how a tennis racket can help a player's game along.

I'm just sayin' that applicable knowledge and experience are good things, and can add value if used well.

Brian_A

23-Sep-2009, 17:28

Yes, but then again someone brought up how Stieglitz didn't like Weston's work. Everyone photographer has a different eye for things. What I may like in a scan may be different than what you do. Although I do think the scanner operator being a photographer is a very relevant thing, I don't think it's a requirement if they are an established company. Who's to say the people on their staff aren't photographers?

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 17:39

I know that one of your reasons for posting is to promote your business, and that's fine.

Peter, I do think that being a photographer is a good asset, not necessarily 100% necessary. However, knowing what someone is looking to create helps the scanning process immeasurably. There's a lot of variables. I have long been in favor of using someone who has a small business that does guaranteed scans, that takes the time to do it right, no matter how many times it takes vs a business where they have to get it out the door. I know that they can get it right on occasion, where I used to live there was a saying - "even the blind chicken gets some feed."

It's true that I have a scanning business and I make sure to be active here to let people know I exist. The truth is I have a very small handful of clients from here - it isn't a living. Regardless, I am careful to never make a post that is self-serving - that isn't who I am, and I think you know that. If I take the time to say something, to contribute to the conversation, it is never because I am trying to one-up or promote myself. Everyone can see my signature, and decide for themselves.

When I have had something specific to offer I put it in the announcements or new products...

No one who responded got my point. I'll just chalk it up to lack of communication skills for today. I've made a number of posts that suggested it was a good thing to get better at things, read a little, study PhotoHistory, use the best film and paper one can get one's hands on, etc. That's my gig - I'm interested in quality. Both for myself and to suggest that possibility to others. It isn't because I want them to buy scans from me - it's because I want to live in a better world. These comments have been met with a lot of resistance - we just want to photograph, we don't want to think about it, etc. I'll grant that some of my points could have been made better by someone with better writing skills - and this is an imperfect medium, to be sure. I think the community will be healthy if there is a striving for excellence, whatever that looks like to each person, rather than a commitment to just going along, mediocrity, or the cheapest whatever. I think the community needs to be aware of what will attract people that will answer their questions in a correct manner - what film, what developer, techniques, etc. I got off of APUG initially because some guy who had been doing photography for 3 weeks answered one of my questions in a very authoritative way (incorrect, of course). I'm not demanding respect, I'm suggesting it as a possibility, and not for me specifically. I think its an important thing when one is cognizant of who one is talking to, in any arena. I often make the point that we have experts here, and I am constantly getting the rejoinder that their skills, their equipment, their commitment doesn't matter - one can just use duct tape. I like duct tape, too, but it isn't always the right answer.

As to Nancyscans, I didn't say their high-end scans were $20, I said they made their mark with $20 scans. A $20 scan is a piece of junk - there is no margin in the price to do anything properly, on any scanner. I know what a Tango can do, in the right hands, I've done tests with Cramer - he's amazing. $80 for 200 megs is a joke, I mean why bother. For a 4x5 I deliver 1.7 GB - and so can anyone else whose scanner does 4000 ppi (every drum). I scan the film then move it over to my Mac where I pull it up and look at it before I take the drum off the scanner. If I don't like it I do it again. Every other top operator does the same. Nancyscans is a commercial business, in and out, not someone taking care with your film. They have overhead, employees, etc., and they have to do a lot of $80'es to be successful. Further, the Tango can't do negatives, they are fixed at 11 microns, which will make a mess. There's a difference, with someone who will work with you, do their best, share their info with you, try and help you be successful with their work. If you don't want it, or your work doesn't need it, that's fine. Yet these are people we are talking about, and we are all benefitting from their knowledge - how many posts, taking their sparse time to help others, have Tyler, Bruce and Sandy made in the last year (I apologize to everyone else whose name is not coming to me at the moment)? What did they get? Not even an appreciation that what they offer is a higher level than a commercial lab, regardless of whether they need it every time? I think its worth considering.

Lenny

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 18:10

...
When scanning, the operator gets to make choices. Actually, quite a few choices. They all skew the results of scanning in some direction or other. If you don't have a good idea what the photographer is trying to accomplish, you'll likely take the middle road for most choices. You won't be wrong. Than again, you won't be right either. And the photographer can probably use Photoshop to get from your scan file to their vision in the print with more or less success....

Well, if you are scanning to get a specific artistic interpretation, as opposed to getting as accurate a scan as possible, then of course one needs to know what the intentions of the photographer are. Learning these intentions, though, doesn't require that the operator be a photographer. Rather it means that the operator has to communicate effectively with the operator and be sufficiently skilled to get the desired end result. I saw this at work all the time. The photographers would talk extensively with the Photoshop operators and check proofs. So while the PS operators weren't photographers, they didn't need to be. With that setup each group specialized in one thing, either photography or post production work, and I'd argue that they were better for this specialization. There is no substitute for doing the work, and if you do more than one thing, you will not be doing as much work in a given area.

Personally, though, I prefer to get as accurate an archival scan as possible, one that gives a great range of possible alternatives.

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 18:16

Brian_A

23-Sep-2009, 18:27

Lenny, I think that you may provide superior service, but it comes down to the end product. Again, I'd love to see comparison shots, but that's just me. I let the work do the real talking. I don't have any experience with you or them so it's kind of hard to say. If it were me on a budget, I'd select the best bang for the buck. I can get two images scanned for the price of yours elsewhere. Now, that's not to say that I'm not going to end up with a better final product from you. But do you know from experience that they aren't photographers or that you can't call/email them and explain to them what you're trying to get out of a scan? I'm not trying to knock you by any means here, but I'm just seeing if you've ever used these guys just so you could compare your services to them. I'd love to see the difference that way I really know who to go to when I do need this type of service done.

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 18:52

Lenny, you're making Straw Man arguments, and you're taking broad, unjustified swings at NancyScans. As Bob said earlier, they have a long reputation for producing outstanding work. Yes, I appreciate info I've gotten from many people on various forums. I try to help out when I can as well. Maybe the people at NancyScans are too busy making scans to argue with folks on the Internet?

Peter,
You're missing my point.
The issue for me isn't Nancyscans and whether or not they have someone who can scan, however unlikely that may be in my small mind. (I don't buy Bob's analysis - an $80-200 meg scan is not impressive. They are a company that has been around for a while, but this is a big business. It's always been quantity over quality with them.)

The point is that there is something else. I live in a small town of about 60,000. If I have a choice of getting something at a supermarket, or the farmer's market, I would rather choose the farmer's market. It supports the local economy, I get fresher produce, etc. Most of the time there is a difference, tho' not always. On occasion there is a farmer who is really into doing it right. If I had to buy my scans from some place, I would rather buy them from a good operator with whom I could develop a relationship than some larger corporation.

I once attended a lecture by William Edwards Deming, often referred to as the father of quality. He invented statistical process control, the reason that Japanese cars are as good as they are. He promoted a concept called single supplier. The class (about 60 students) came up with about 50 different characteristics of xerox copy paper. We missed a few, one critical one. His point was that you can't always specify every little thing. Rather than the usual 3 bid process we do here for purchasing, he suggested that one make a long term contract with the paper supplier. If the paper didn't work in the copier, this supplier would just take the whole palette of paper back and get them something that worked. Whatever loss from shipping charges or whatever there was would be offset by the long term gains over time.

You are getting lost in the detail, of whether or not Nancyscans produces a great scan. I would rather recommend one of our community here, even if the quality were equal, which their business model does not allow.

It sounds like you don't believe that there is a difference between an ok scan and one that is dialed in. I am not saying that everyone needs a great scan. Not everyone needs a Stradivarius or Guarneri. It's nice to know they are there. If I was a violinist I might drool after one (I'm not). I certainly wouldn't imply to an owner that I could do just as well with the violin I got from the local Target. I met a local violin maker - his work was exquisite. He played one of them for me and I thought I was going to explode from the sheer beauty of the sound. I wouldn't tell him about the Target violin, either.

Lenny

Peter De Smidt

23-Sep-2009, 19:06

It sounds like you don't believe that there is a difference between an ok scan and one that is dialed in.
Lenny

Nice shot there Lenny. We've talked about this ad nauseum. There's no need for me to explain myself again.

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 19:11

I don't have any experience with you or them so it's kind of hard to say. If it were me on a budget, I'd select the best bang for the buck. I can get two images scanned for the price of yours elsewhere.

As I said above, the issue isn't really about Nancyscans. They are the McDonald's of scanning, I'm just some local guy.

And you can't get 2 scans for the price of one. Those are 80 meg scans. Waste of money. Mine are 1.7 Gigs. That's quite a bit more data (and time). If you want to compare that scan to the one I can deliver I will beat it every time, on a number of criteria. FWIW, I am have completed my scan for Leigh Perry and you will be able to see that soon... when the post makes it to Australia. Neither of the Tango scans posted at the site compare to what my scanner produced.

Now, that's not to say that I'm not going to end up with a better final product from you.

I appreciate the vote of confidence. It's been a while since I had a Nancyscan here. I don't even remember whose it was. It was awful, and tiny. Maybe they hired a good operator since then, for all I know.

I don't want to sit here and say "my scans are better than anyone else's." I'm not going to get pushed into that, and it is not the point. I don't know how I can say that strongly enough. What I can tell you, is that, as an expert, there is a difference between what the top scanner operators can do for you and what others do. Every discussion on the Scan HighEnd list has appreciated the value of the operator in the mix, on every scanner. It's a huge factor. What Cramer can do on his Tango, for example, is way beyond what most scanner operators can do on any scanner - even better scanners than the Tango. There is a group of small companies where you can go to get the absolute best scans, on top machines. They aren't in the Himalayas somewhere, they are right here, some of them. They advertise in magazines you read, and contribute to forums where people who use film are likely to be. Very few of the top operators are at the big houses, or at photolabs. It's not impossible, just less likely. Bigger companies have less tolerance for running scans a second or third time, or for taking the time to do the research required.

There is no book on high end scanning. There are only people trying different things to get it right, often for their own curiosity - or to meet a need in their own work.

Lenny

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 19:13

Nice shot there Lenny. We've talked about this ad nauseum. There's no need for me to explain myself again.

Please don't take it as a shot. I didn't mean it that way. I was frustrated that you didn't get my point - or at least I didn't think you did.

Lenny

Brian_A

23-Sep-2009, 19:20

One day I'll be able to afford to find out what it's like to have a high end scan done. Until then I'll be running from what my V750 can do. (Yes, I know there's no comparison in quality, but it's what I have...) I guess when you're on a limited budget, an $800 scanner seems like the best thing since sliced bread. But I'm no Kirk Gittings, getting paid the big bucks, so I'll have to slum it with the V750. I'd love to see what some of my 4x5's and 6x17's would look like with a scan by Lenny or the likes. I guess when it comes to it, I'd probably end up using someone like Lenny over a lab for a few bucks more when I know that if I don't like what I get, I'm fairly sure he'll make it right until it is. (Within reason...)

-Brian

Lenny Eiger

23-Sep-2009, 19:47

One day I'll be able to afford to find out what it's like to have a high end scan done.

There's nothing wrong with using the tools you have, especially when one considers the size, type of printer, etc. Most of us started with smaller cameras. What I recommend is that when you have an image that is your best, and requires some great resolution and depth, maybe the 750 hasn't given you what you want, give it a try. Send it to someone who will scan it until its perfect (or as close as one can get).

Then you will have sent one scan off, it will be one worth investing in, and you'll have your comparison. A lot of folks imagine a high end scan for every shot, and end up scanning none. Use the scanner you have for all the grunt work and scan only the best ones and its a lot less.

Lenny

bob carnie

24-Sep-2009, 06:17

Without the owner of Nancy Scan's here and being able to respond to this silly thread , I think it would be fair to close this thread until they have a chance to respond.
Almost every fine art COMMERCIAL PHOTO LAB or Scan House that is competing on a world platform has photographers in their organization with thousands if not hundreds of thousands exposures to film, or paper.
Metro , Picto, Lamount, Duggal, Modernage, Nancy Scans, Dalmation Labs shit the list goes on and on , Not only do the owners bring years of photography to their respective company , they also bring their appreciation of the whole process of photography.

The argument that the operator should be a photographer is well noted and is a given in most high end labs.
If you compete in a heavy populated area with a large photographer or artist base, you will last only a few years if as a PROFESSIONAL PRINTER if you put your vision on others work.
The very best PROFESSIONAL PRINTERS that I know and admire are chamelions.sp.
Their best attribute is to listen to their CLIENT, make a few test prints(scans) and discuss how the CLIENT feels about the paper , contrast, density, tone . And then and only then do they move forward.
I know PRINTERS who demand to put their stamp on every print, or at least I use to know them , but I can assure you they are not doing business in my town any more.
I would really like the owner of NANCY'S SCANS to have the ability to chime in here, but as someone offered they are probably pretty busy serving their clients.

Lenny Eiger

24-Sep-2009, 10:18

Without the owner of Nancy Scan's here and being able to respond to this silly thread , I think it would be fair to close this thread until they have a chance to respond.

You want to make this about Nancyscans, knock yourself out. You'll miss the point. The point is quality - and whether there is a desire for excellence left in photography or whether it is just commodity. I say there is too much focus on "how cheaply can I do this." A further point is whether one recognizes who it is they are talking to. We have Yehudi Menhuin, Yasha Heifitz, Itzaak Perlman and Yoyo Maa here and people want to talk about the Jonas brothers, the latest kid band.

Lenny

Peter De Smidt

24-Sep-2009, 10:34

Lenny,

Are you sure you're putting yourself in with the right company? You might be short-changing yourself.

bob carnie

24-Sep-2009, 10:43

You want to make this about Nancyscans, knock yourself out. You'll miss the point. The point is quality - and whether there is a desire for excellence left in photography or whether it is just commodity. I say there is too much focus on "how cheaply can I do this." A further point is whether one recognizes who it is they are talking to. We have Yehudi Menhuin, Yasha Heifitz, Itzaak Perlman and Yoyo Maa here and people want to talk about the Jonas brothers, the latest kid band.

Lenny

bob carnie

24-Sep-2009, 10:48

I did not bring Nancy Scans into this discussion, and since it is a public forum where potential clients may see what is written, lets just give the owners of Nancy Scans a chance to defend themselves.

sanking

24-Sep-2009, 10:57

How about 29 cents USD a pop for 3000 dpi scan of a 35mm negative?

Or 39 cents for the "pro" quality scan, tiff file.

Sometimes you need to listen to Isaac Albeniz, other times the Dixie Chicks sound real good.

Sandy King

http://www.scancafe.com/services/negative-scanning?cid=GOOG&ovchn=GGL&ovcpn=Scan&ovcrn=sr3_101724079_go+film+scans&ovtac=PPC&SR=sr3_101724079_go&gclid=COLogt3mip0CFRRlswod2WRy2w

Peter De Smidt

24-Sep-2009, 11:20

John Olsen from NancyScans asked me to post the following:

"NancyScans doesn't have "operators". My partner, company President, Nancy Olson does every Tango scan herself. I can't tell you how often she does a scan 3 or 4 times to extract the best results possible. Her customers never know the effort she goes through. She does it because it is in her nature to do the best job possible. At the end of it, we gross $50 and, if we are lucky, net a few dollars. If she gets 20 done a day, its a lot as everyone get treated specially.

What I find interesting, after 15 years in business, we seldom get a complaint about our scans. And, we've never lost a chrome nor has she ever damaged an original."

Lenny Eiger

24-Sep-2009, 11:33

Lenny,

Are you sure you're putting yourself in with the right company? You might be short-changing yourself.

You can pick out the essence of what I was trying to say, or you can try to find something to be critical about. You are apparently choosing the latter.

WR to Sandy - thankfully I don't need 29 cent scans. And the Dixie Chicks are quality, whether one likes them or not, whereas the other is garbage, pop fluff for pre-teens.

If no one wants to get it, that's fine. I'll stop.

Peter De Smidt

24-Sep-2009, 11:54

The original poster asked people to recommend good drum scanning services, preferably ones local to him. Michael chimed in that he really liked the scans he had done by NancyScans, a perfectly appropriate response to the original question. As a result, Lenny jumped down Micheal's throat claiming that by relating his experience Michael had insulted Lenny, and Lenny went on a diatribe about craftsmanship, supporting forum members, and he denigrated NancyScans. IMO Lenny's behavior was way out-of-line. He could've simply added to the thread saying, something like "I run a scanning service. Here's the equipment I use, and [an explanation about why someone should choose his service]." There was no need to be insulted, cast aspersions about other services, or engage in any self-aggrandizement.

James Beck

24-Sep-2009, 12:24

Peter, how's this?

"I run a scanning service. I use a Tango, and I have 25 years scanning for photographers, artists and individuals".

BTW the Tango has twenty-five apertures, not the fixed 11 micron aperture stated in these forums.

Respectfully,
Jim

www.jamesbeckdigital.com (http://www.jamesbeckdigital.com)

Peter De Smidt

24-Sep-2009, 12:44

Jim,

Sounds good to me! :)

Peter

redrockcoulee

24-Sep-2009, 13:38

I followed this thread as I too may need some 4X5 scanning (see 6X9 thread) for my wife's work. It sure does not sound as simple of a dispute as Peter makes out. From reading it looking for a possible scanning service I read that NancyScan may be a run of the mill scanner and Lenny is neither careful with one's slides and may not be dependable cause he works out of his home.

From reading all the postings neither of these statements seems to hold water and other posters have taken sides. Peter, if Lenny was out of line than so was Eric for stating not to use Lenny's service . I could come away from this forum thinking I should consider neither place. Is this good advise? Is this the message that the posters want to present?

I have no dogs in this fight (my dogs have been Brittany Spaniels so no fight in the dogs either) but am curious about my options as was the OP.

Peter De Smidt

24-Sep-2009, 14:36

Hi Redrockcoulee,

I agree about Eric's post, and I said so in this thread.

I've not used NancyScans, I do not have a stake in their getting business, nor am I recommending them, as I haven't used them; but a Heidelburg Tango is not a run of the mill scanner. New, they cost about $100,000dollars, much more than a Premier, and when scanning was an integral part of the professional pre-press workflow, it was considered the Rolls-Royce of scanners. As Lenny has said, a Tango in the right hands is capable of outstanding scans. Moreover, as Bob said, NancyScans has an excellent reputation in the professional community. Does this mean that they are better than some of the other options? I have no idea, and the only way to tell would be to compare some scans, along with prices, service, and public demeanor.

Dennis P

4-Jan-2011, 08:20

hello lenny, I do not have a scanner and need some 4x5 scans done on a regular basis, can you do these for me. Also please send me your email address so i can contact you. thanks Dennis p

Dennis P

4-Jan-2011, 08:24

Eric,

This is inappropriate. You and I had a disagreement. From my perspective you sent me a scratched neg and wanted to blame it on me. I don't feed anyone BS, you are the only person I have ever had a problem with in all the years I have been scanning, and if I had a similar problem with you I wouldn't put it out in a public forum, especially when people were asking for the specific kind of service I offer.

Not to mention that the scratch was so minimal that it was a piece of cake to fix it in Photoshop, less than 5 mines, which I had done for you, free of charge. I have dealt with other people's scratches, that are real scratches and that's another matter. You were petty, anal about a stupid scratch, that I didn't create, and rude. And I refunded the cost of that scan.

Lenny
Hello, Lenny, what is your cost for 4x5 scans about 50MB thanks Dennis P Also what is your email address and where do you live

Dennis P

4-Jan-2011, 08:35

I have always been completely satisfied with the quality and service from Danny Burk:

http://www.dannyburk.com/
Hello , wanted to know if you were happy with the 4x5 scans and approx. how long from sending in your scans to danny to getting back scans did it take. thanks Dennis.

Lenny Eiger

4-Jan-2011, 11:40

Responding to Dennis privately - but just in case other photog's want this info, or just want to call up and yell at me, or talk shop (I love to be distracted), here's some direct contact info...

EigerStudios
7 Raffles Court
Petaluma, CA 94954
707-763-5922
eiger@eigerstudios.com

Kirk Gittings

4-Jan-2011, 12:21

Not to make light of the situation, but, things happen when you hand your negs over to another person. It'll drive you nuts but it going to happen occasionally. If the service provider is a quality person, it could be an opportunity to form a bond around the civility that's maintained.

I worked in an E-6/Cibachrome lab for a few years. No matter how careful you are, despite your best efforts, stuff happens. I don't believe there is a lab in the country that has never damaged somebodies film-thats what all the disclaimers are for. Putting your film in the hands of a third person has inherent risks that are just part of being a photographer. Hell, I have damaged a fair amount of my own film-fire me! It always is a serious loss, but it is an unfortunate part and parcel of the business. Film is a very fragile and delicate object.

As a commercial architectural photographer, I have had probably thousands of transparencies scanned over the years for books and magazines. Some of my the most widely published images (repeated stock sales) are trashed from repeated handling by even competent labs.

FWIW, These days for my art work I try to get the best scan at the highest resolution and then stick the neg in my safety deposit box. These negatives have tremendous potential value both financially and historically-many of the pristine landscapes and buildings that I photograph don't exist anymore. Personally, though I have not tried many of the shops mentioned here, I have been very happy with Lenny Eiger's treatment of my negatives and the quality of his scans. There is no-one here locally that I am aware of that can begin to match his craftsmanship.