Thoughts about P&S

[Ari]

Hi all,
I work mostly in B&W portraits, and I'm thinking of buying my first point and shoot digicam; I thought to use it as a light meter as well as a gauge of how the light is falling on people.
I have a 5D I could use as a meter but it's a bulky thing to tote around; I do shoot the occasional 'roid, but I am looking to lighten the load anywhere I can.
My thoughts veer toward the Lumix cameras because of their nice large screens and decent lenses.
Does anyone here use a digicam as a light gauge/meter, and do you have any recommendations as to make/model in the $200 range? Are any particularly suited to skin tones?
Thanks very much.

[Ben Syverson]

The new Canon S90 looks pretty interesting. Very tiny, yet has a full manual mode, shoots RAW, has dedicated adjustment rings, etc...

[Greg Lockrey]

It's been done and there are threads on the subject. Keep in mind that digital camera exposure factors are more linear than film which depending on the film is shaped like a toe.

[rdenney]

It's been done and there are threads on the subject. Keep in mind that digital camera exposure factors are more linear than film which depending on the film is shaped like a toe.

Yes. If you meter at Zone V (middle gray), the Canon's meter matches any other meter. But if I place that tone on Zone VIII, the digital camera isn't going to record it as Zone VIII. I keep thinking I'm going to conduct serious tests to understand how the zones fit into the 5D's histogram, but frankly I find the histogram more useful than the Zone System when I'm using that camera. Making it go the other way would require as much testing.

Rick "who just conducted some comparisons this evening with the 5D and the Pentax Spot V" Denney

[Ben Syverson]

The histogram is very useful, but you have to know what you're looking at. A shot that doesn't look clipped on the RGB histogram very well may be clipped on Velvia. By the same token, a shot that looks way overexposed on the histogram may still be within the linear segment of a B&W negative's response curve. The relationship will change from film to film.

Also keep in mind that the histogram is NOT linear; it's representing the distribution of values AFTER the image has been given a perceptual gamma adjustment (to sRGB or Adobe RGB). You would think that each "notch" in the histogram would represent a stop, or a fraction of a stop, but there is not a linear relationship between stops and the X axis.

In other words, if you photograph a grayscale EV wedge chart with 1 stop increments, you will not see a regular progression of "spikes." What you will see is something similar to the attached image. Darker stops are clustered around the toe, and then they spread out toward the highlights. That's why people like to "expose to the right" (ETR) -- more data will be recorded, as long as you don't clip.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from referencing the histogram when shooting film; I use it all the time. Just wanted to give a heads up.

[BradS]

....what is this Heresey?!?!?!

Is it not an absolute requirement that everybody here own, carry and use a zone VI modified spot meter?

next you guys will tell me that we don't all have to keep our film in the freezer either....:rolleyes:


sheesh!



PS: I don't do either! I meter with a simple hand-held incident light meter or an old Nikon FA (35mm SLR)....and mostly store the film in the china cabinet in the dining room!

[percepts]

Canon G10 but maybe too expensive.

[Ari]

Thanks to all for the input; I'll be making a purchase soon, and if anything of interest happens, I'll post it here.
Good shooting!

[Frank Petronio]

I've had the cheapest little Panasonics, the $120 XXJJDSRYER-mark 2 or whatever dumb name they have, for family members-- and they all have been champs, I steal them all the time. They are one of the only cheap little digis that display a histogram, ISO, speed and aperture constantly while shooting.

I generally try to get a nice upside-down U - mountain shaped histogram and shoot for that, rather than trying to place Zone values. True you can catch a little more highlight on B&W film but usually you get a nice exposure.

[VictoriaPerelet]

Modern PS are quite adequate depending on what you do. Things to watch:

1. On most PS aperture goes only to ~F8 (which is plenty of DOF for tiny sensor),
if you're in to brassies or "wide open" that's ok, otherwise you will need one that has filter mount to add ND's. Canon G series have build in 3x ND.

2. Filter mount again, for extra ND's polarizers etc

3. Most PS have min focal length ~24mm (recalculated to 35mm), if you are using 4x5 lenses shorter than 90mm - you need "wide angle" add on-lens for PS. "Wide angle" add-on will add couple of extra stops.

4. Hot shoe to hold radio flash trigger to fire strobes

5. Very few PS have bulb shutter mode and max exposure time is 15sec.

6. Very few have white balance setting in Kelvins.

[Archphoto]

I checked my compact P&S, a Samsung D830 that has a manual.... a limited one, too limited.
On the other hand a compact DSLR could do.
I have an Olympus E410 (now E450) that has full manual, WB in Kelvin and a lens range that goes beyont that of most 4x5 sets in a relative small package.
I am thinking of an Olympus E450 with 9-18mm and 14-42mm that would give 54-250mm on 4x5 and would cost around $ 1000,- as a set.

Having said that: a small screen on the back of any digital camera is no match to the old Polaroid, (it is less than half a 4x5 ) but it can be a help under circumstances.
A better way would be hooking the DSLR to a small laptop to get a better indication of the final shot on LF, but it would be like putting a studio envoirement on location.

Will it replace a lightmeter and a color temperature meter ?
It can, but it will be quite cumbersome: I did it the other way around some weeks ago where I used my light and color temp meter to set-up the digi DSLR properly for product shots that were needed, so the answer is basicly NO, not for me anyway.

I have to try this when I am back in Holland again with my beloved 4x5 and 8x10.

Peter

[Acheron Photography]

Given I have been using a Pentax 67 as a meter for a while, anything would be an improvement on bulk... I do really like the idea of using something like the new Canon G11 though, given I'm almost certainly going to buy one anyway.

David *who is scurrying away to look at the old threads*

[nathanm]

The problem I quickly found with the digicam-as-meter approach is that the settings don't line up with what you've got on your LF lens. Mine was completely stopped down at ƒ11 whereas my nice glass went to ƒ45 or ƒ64. In my opinion, with a proper meter your mind will be completely in LF mode and not distracted by this other camera.

[oris642]

I use my Ricoh GX100. Seems to work fine unless it gets really dark. To extrapolate the values off the GX100 (f-stop only goes to about f8) I use the exposure calculator that I removed from a broken Pentax Spotmeter that I got off Ebay. The GX100 is also good for a composition test shot for contemplation before returning when the light is more "golden".

[falth j]

I too, have used many conceivable methods for light metering, in the end, the cheapest and most accurate method in the long run, was to buy a modern, compact dedicated digital light meter...

[Daniel Moore]

I wonder if it's possible to hack digicam firmware, ala CHDK (http://chdk.wikia.com/wiki/CHDK), to convert histogram data to a film preset /characteristic curve. I'd pay a neat sum for that utility. I'll post the suggestion on their forum.

[Archphoto]

If you want that you might go the route of theadered shooting, that is connecting the camera to a laptop (10 inch) and make a plug-in for one of the programs.

An open program like Gimp 2 might be suitable, don't ask me to do it for you: I am a photographer, not a computer scientist......

Peter

[Ari]

Hey, thanks for all the input. In the end my attempt at using a P&S failed miserably, because, as Nathan M accurately predicted, I was running around with too many toys, and couldn't focus on the task at hand enough to do anything right. And, true enough, everything went wrong that day, I even dropped my GG holder, luckily it didn't break.
So I'm back to my Minolta IVf meter.
Maybe if I had two assistants (willing to work for free) doing the grunt work, I could concentrate solely on the people in my viewfinder.
Thanks again, everybody.

[mandoman7]

Simplification has its benefits, particularly with creative efforts.

[VictoriaPerelet]

During recent trip to Seattle I got around to take some sample location pics metered with Canon G7 P&S.

Overall setup Linhof TK S, Canon 580 flash unit on ministand triggered from Elinchrome Skyport radio trigger. Whole setup easily fits in Lowepro CompuTrekker back pack. Tmax 400, HC110 developed in hotel bathroom.


Here's example of balancing sunlight/tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_1-3-2.jpg

Tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_15-18-1.jpg

Dark basement with 2 tungsten bulbs and flash:

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/AnnMari/big/am_5-8-6.jpg

Flash adjusted manually, aperture set to 5.6 exposure numbers picked up in M mode on P&S and directly transferred to Schneider 210mm APO lens.

PS. I've seen some people trying to use DSLR/P&S in auto mode to get exposure - IMHO it is silly, you need to use digicam M mode to get #'s right.

[Frank_E]

During recent trip to Seattle I got around to take some sample location pics metered with Canon G7 P&S.

Overall setup Linhof TK S, Canon 580 flash unit on ministand triggered from Elinchrome Skyport radio trigger. Whole setup easily fits in Lowepro CompuTrekker back pack. Tmax 400, HC110 developed in hotel bathroom.


Here's example of balancing sunlight/tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_1-3-2.jpg

Tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_15-18-1.jpg

Dark basement with 2 tungsten bulbs and flash:

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/AnnMari/big/am_5-8-6.jpg

Flash adjusted manually, aperture set to 5.6 exposure numbers picked up in M mode on P&S and directly transferred to Schneider 210mm APO lens.

PS. I've seen some people trying to use DSLR/P&S in auto mode to get exposure - IMHO it is silly, you need to use digicam M mode to get #'s right.

Victoria, I am very impressed both by the images and your ability to process the negatives in a hotel bathroom. Can I ask what tanks or other implements you used to process the film.

[VictoriaPerelet]

Frank,

As of equipment - Jobo 2521 tank with rubber lid, Jobo hand roll base and plain black changing bag. I use Grafmatic film holders - one holder per one tank load. When you have controlled light & reliable metering (aka P&S digicam:)) - no need to individually develop every sheet.

Film & chemicals - if I can I buy on location, this time I was lucky to get everything from Glazers camera in Seattle, otherwise I order B&H to ship. For mixing HC110 & Stop - near by Wallmart or Walgreens has cooking syringe & graduate. Kodak fixer - one gallon of distilled water bought at same store:)

I never liked idea of getting undeveloped film thru airport security.

[Mark Sawyer]

Am I the only one who read "Thoughts about P&S", and thought, "oh, a Pinkham and Smith thread..."?

[Jim Galli]

Am I the only one who read "Thoughts about P&S", and thought, "oh, a Pinkham and Smith thread..."?
Great minds think alike.

[Jan Pedersen]

Am I the only one who read "Thoughts about P&S", and thought, "oh, a Pinkham and Smith thread..."?

No. Went in with a lot of anticipation too :o

[Ari]

Sorry to disappoint you all...:)

[David Hedley]

During recent trip to Seattle I got around to take some sample location pics metered with Canon G7 P&S.

Overall setup Linhof TK S, Canon 580 flash unit on ministand triggered from Elinchrome Skyport radio trigger. Whole setup easily fits in Lowepro CompuTrekker back pack. Tmax 400, HC110 developed in hotel bathroom.


Here's example of balancing sunlight/tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_1-3-2.jpg

Tungsten and flash (hotel room):

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/Ileana/big/Il_15-18-1.jpg

Dark basement with 2 tungsten bulbs and flash:

http://www.victoriasphoto.com/models/AnnMari/big/am_5-8-6.jpg

Flash adjusted manually, aperture set to 5.6 exposure numbers picked up in M mode on P&S and directly transferred to Schneider 210mm APO lens.

PS. I've seen some people trying to use DSLR/P&S in auto mode to get exposure - IMHO it is silly, you need to use digicam M mode to get #'s right.

Excellent, Victoria, especially the second one.