tiny Protar question

[Emil Schildt]

I looked around my lenses and found, that I am the happy (?) owner of a tiny Protar lens.
It is really small (look at the images attached), 100mm,F8, made by Krauss on Zeiss patent (I think).

(The size is shown on the last two images.)
Any of you know this lens? What was it used on (camera) - is it any good?

thanks in advance.

[IanG]

That's a big Protar :)

I have a Ross f16 (Protar) 151mm that covers 10x8 it's tiny :D It's not marked Protar as it's WWI vintage, Zeiss were actually technically paying Royalties to Ross up until WWI for EWA Protars as they used Ross Patented designs. But in practice up until WWI Ross & Zeiss worked closely anyway sharing technology.

Ian

[Dan Fromm]

That's a big Protar :)

I have a Ross f16 (Protar) 151mm that covers 10x8 it's tiny :D It's not marked Protar as it's WWI vintage, Zeiss were actually technically paying Royalties to Ross up until WWI for EWA Protars as they used Ross Patented designs. But in practice up until WWI Ross & Zeiss worked closely anyway sharing technology.

IanAre you sure that Zeiss used Ross patents? Prove it; no statement by H. Lynn Jones counts.

I'd always understood that Ross licensed designs from Zeiss, as did Suter, Koristka, Krauss (France), B&L, and no doubt others. Ross also licensed designs from Goerz.
And Beck licensed Steinheil designs; if I could get past their lack of coating, I'd like to try a Unofocal.

Not to denigrate the UK optical goods industry, which had many outstanding opticians and mads many fine lenses, but the only instance of a German lens maker licensing a UK firm's lens design that comes to mind is Leitz, who licensed a 6/4 double Gauss design from TTH.

Cheers,

Dan

[Ernest Purdum]

I'm feeling frustrated because I can't be sure if it has a "Series" identification or not,

I don't think it can be a Ser. IV or V, the proportions are wrong. I am guessing it is quite early and probably one of the less frequently encountered designs.

I'm also unable to tell just what sort of diaphragm it has.

[Emil Schildt]

I'm feeling frustrated because I can't be sure if it has a "Series" identification or not,

I don't think it can be a Ser. IV or V, the proportions are wrong. I am guessing it is quite early and probably one of the less frequently encountered designs.

I'm also unable to tell just what sort of diaphragm it has.

ernest: I think it has.. but the letters are so small, it is difficult to read clearly..

here is what I see written:"No 32514 Protar Zeiss 1:8 F100 mm B te sed(?)h(?)(The "h" could be a "II") E. Krauss Paris"

it has an aperture scale, but with no numbers written on it, and a slot for filter(?)..

hope that helps.

[IanG]

Are you sure that Zeiss used Ross patents? Prove it; no statement by H. Lynn Jones counts.

Dan

I'll try and find the details for you Dan. As far as I remember the main Ross design licensing related to the wide angle Protar which was itself then covered by a Zeiss Patent

Up until 1914 the tie up between Zeiss and Ross was the closest of all the licensing agreements mainly because it gave Ross the rights to manufacture & sell Zeiss designs in the whole of the British Empire. Ross were manufacturing a wide range of Zeiss designs as well as their own, they had a similar agreement with Goerz.

The outbreak of the First WW brought that to a close because Ross took then over a relatively new UK Carl Zeiss factory at Mill Hill, London which was producing Military binoculars as well as some camera lenses.

It's a poorly researched area but Ross & Zeiss had many agreements. Maybe some of the documentation is in a Record Office somewhere in the UK.

Ian

[Alan Rabe]

I always thought the slots on these old lenses were for Waterhouse Stops

[Dan Fromm]

Thanks, Ian, and good luck searching. Much of this stuff is pretty obscure.

When my Zeiss guru Charlie Barringer answers the phone I'll ask him if he's aware of Ross designs used by Zeiss. And if we're lucky Arne Croell will notice this thread; he may well be able to contribute solid information.

Cheers,

Dan

[Emil Schildt]

I always thought the slots on these old lenses were for Waterhouse Stops

me too, but as this lens has a multibladed aperture, then it might be for a filter..

(but there was a reason why I added the sentence with a question mark..:o )

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Ian, Charlie called me back. He denies having special expertise, also is unaware of any use of Ross designs by CZJ.

[Ole Tjugen]

ernest: I think it has.. but the letters are so small, it is difficult to read clearly..

here is what I see written:"No 32514 Protar Zeiss 1:8 F100 mm B te sed(?)h(?)(The "h" could be a "II") E. Krauss Paris"

it has an aperture scale, but with no numbers written on it, and a slot for filter(?)..

hope that helps.

1:8 matches with a Protar Ser. II a, which seems possible. 75 degrees image angle, 5 elements in 2 cells. it seems to just barelt have survived through the name change from Anastigmat to Protar.

[Ernest Purdum]

I think Ole has solved the basic question. Ross and Zeiss? That's another matter

[Uli Mayer]

There is an overview of the various original Zeiss Protar series, together with tiny pics showing their lens design, and in which mountings they were offered:
http://www.archive.zeiss.de/hzeig.FAU?sid=D3ED62A916&DM=2&IND=1&ZEIG=Protar

[IanG]

Um, Ian, Charlie called me back. He denies having special expertise, also is unaware of any use of Ross designs by CZJ.

A few years ago I came across quite a lot of data about Zeiss, Ross and the Mill Hill London) optical works which Zeiss set up, it was siezed by the British Government in the war and taken over by Ross. This factory assembled a few camera lenses as well, there was a Zeiss, London Tessar for sale on this forum a year or two ago.

I would have saved the data, but I had a large hard disk fail about 3 years ago, luckily I managed to change the control circuitry over from another identical drive last time I was in the UK, so I'll search next time I'm there.

Ross made & sold a very wide range of Zeiss lenses around 1900 so that would require a very high degree of co-operation, I should have a scan of a 1902 Ross advert on DVD here (I'll post it as a new thread when I find it).

A very different perspective of Zeiss & Schott was taken by the British Government during the First WW. All the specialist optical glass used by British lens manufacturers had been imported from Germany, the war meant there was a huge problem, so British glass manufactures were asked to fill the void and research & produce optical glasses.

This is why Pilkington's are now the major world supplier of the specialist optical glasses used in lenses. Hoya blend Pilkington's specialist glasses with their own to produce the blanks used by most Japanese manufacturers.

Ian

[Steven Tribe]

"Not to denigrate the UK optical goods industry, which had many outstanding opticians and made many fine lenses, but the only instance of a German lens maker licensing a UK firm's lens design that comes to mind is Leitz, who licensed a 6/4 double Gauss design from TTH."

Sorry. Dan - but you have forgotten that poor Voigtländer were excluded from the Goerz/Zeiss anastigmats and licensed the Cooke Triplet until their design department caught up - with a vengence too! I think there was another German licencee too - have seen a non-voigtländer with super engraving "Cook" mistake!

I think the idea that Ross contributed to Zeiss's optics development (1893 onwards) is an interesting one and has a deal of logic in it. VM lists major differences in apparently similar series nomenclatures and both has something to gain for mutual development (Ross had size, production resources, reputation and Zeiss had direct access to the new glass).

As far as this 100mm protar. It looks like a series II(f6.3). I wouldn't take much notice of the F value as Krauss only made lenses for the French market with their very different aperture scale. It has probably been used as a process lens (horizontal enlarger type) although the additional slit looks very much a workshop hacksaw job.

[Pete Watkins]

I've got a couple of TT&H lenses with both apertures and slots. The lenses are clearly marked as process lenses (one is in a laquered brass barrel) so I can only assume that this type of lens has the slots for the Waterhouse stops (not always circular) used on process cameras.
Best wishes,
Pete.