Using enlarging lens to replace macro lens

[ShivaShakti]

I bought a 4X5" Horseman body to take architectural and industrial photos. I just realised the power of the large format.:eek: I would like to try the big magnification macro photography on 6X9cm or 4X5". I thinking about using a reversal position enlarging lens, because I dont want to use 4feet long bellows extension or something like this.
Colud you please write me some solution of using enlarging lens.. Is there any solution to put up the enlarging lens and a shutter? Or a normal wide angle lens can be used in reversal position? Thank you for your help.

[Donald Miller]

I bought a 4X5" Horseman body to take architectural and industrial photos. I just realised the power of the large format.:eek: I would like to try the big magnification macro photography on 6X9cm or 4X5". I thinking about using a reversal position enlarging lens, because I dont want to use 4feet long bellows extension or something like this.
Colud you please write me some solution of using enlarging lens.. Is there any solution to put up the enlarging lens and a shutter? Or a normal wide angle lens can be used in reversal position? Thank you for your help.

If I were considering something like this I would fabricate a blank lensboard out of available materials and then drill the lensboard to accept the lens that you wish to use. Since one needs to stop the lens down to get any depth of field at all and since magnification is another factor involved in exposure calculation, I doubt that you will need to be concerned with shuttering the lens.

[Dan Fromm]

Which enlarging lens to use depends on how much magnification you need. How to mount it depends on which lens you use.

FWIW, the 105/4.5 and 150/5.6 Schneider Comparons (suffix -ARON, not ONON, not ONAR) both are direct fits into #0 shutters. #0s, unlike #1s, are symmetrical, i.e., are threaded identically front and rear. So to use a Comparon in one above 1:1, simply put its rear cell in the front of the shutter and its front cell in the rear of the shutter.

According to Schneider:

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/cp_cpn_cpr.pdf (2/63)

Zur Schneider-Componon-Serie wird jeder Fachmann greifen, der das feinste Detail seiner Negative in Großfotos makellos wiedergeben muß. Die optimale Korrektion dieser Componon-Objektive liegt im 10-fachen Vergrößerungsbereich.

Die Schneider-Comparon-Serie ist zur Erreichung der allgemein geschätzten
Compononleistung im 2-bis 6-fachen Vergrößerungsbereich neu geschaffen worden. Bei der Comparon-Serie liegt die optimale Korrektur im 4-fachen Vergrößerungsbereich.

Selbstverständlich kann mit dem Componon z. B. 2- bis 6-fach oder
mit dem Comparon 8- bis 12-fach vergrößert werden, genau so, wie
man mit Aufnahmeobjektiven nicht nur bei unendlich arbeiten kann.
Außergewöhnlich hohen Anforderungen kann jedoch zuverlässig
durch zweckentsprechende Objektiv-Wahl entsprochen werden.


http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/componon_comparon.pdf (9/66)

Die Serie der COMPONON-Objektive ist auf die Bereiche um 10 fache Vergrößerungen
und mehr korrigiert. - Hier gibt ein COMPONON im Fach-Vergrößerer die feinsten Negativ-Details korrekt wieder.

Die Objektive der COMPARON-Serie hingegen erreichen die gleiche optische
Leistung in der 2-6fachen und optimal bei 4facher Vergrößerung, wie sie in
der Praxis am häufigsten vorkommt.

Selbstverständlich können mit beiden Objektiv-Typen - besonders bei schwacher Abblendung — diese Maximalbereiche weitgehend überschritten werden. Man wird dabei kaum einen Unterschied feststellen, ob nun mit dem COMPONON 2- oder 6fach bzw. mit dem COMPARON 8- oder 12fach vergrößert wurde.

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/cpr.pdf

The SCHNEIDER COMPARON series of enlarging lenses is designed to satisfy the
strict demands of professional photographers. To fulfill the requirements of
professional photography, the COMPARON with its four element, three component
design is optimized for 2x to 6x magnifications.

OP, I have no idea what magnifications you want to work at. In my experience working at high magnifications is somewhat painful.

Before you spend money on equipment, you should buy a book on technique. For recommendations see, e.g., this thread: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=48325&highlight=lefkowitz

You should also use the forum search feature to look for lefkowitz.

[Glenn Thoreson]

The Polaroid MP-4 lenses by Tominon can be had at very good prices. They are made for 4X5 copy and macro work and are quite good. Focal lengths from 35mm to 135mm in Copal 1 shutters. The shutters they used for these can be quirky. They aren't the best but you would only need one or two to be in business. These also make good enlarging lenses. I use a few for that.

[Ernest Purdum]

There is an article amongst those listed at the bottom of the home page that discusses this subject and might be of use to you.

[Don Dudenbostel]

I used a 150 componon s in a copal 0 for copying paintings on 4x5. Most paintings were 20x30 inches or smaller. It made a perfectly fine close up lens. When you think about it you're just reversing the direction that light passes through it while working at the repro ratios it was designed for.

[Alan Davenport]

The Polaroid MP-4 lenses by Tominon ... Focal lengths from 35mm to 135mm...

...and 17mm

[FilmIsNotDead]

The Polaroid MP-4 lenses by Tominon can be had at very good prices. They are made for 4X5 copy and macro work and are quite good. Focal lengths from 35mm to 135mm in Copal 1 shutters. The shutters they used for these can be quirky. They aren't the best but you would only need one or two to be in business. These also make good enlarging lenses. I use a few for that.


...and 17mm

The 17's are around but fairly difficult to find. I never had any issues with the shutter... quite good IMHO. The Polaroid Tominons are designed specifically for flat field copy work (or macro)... no need to reverse-mount them vs. using enlarging lenses.

[Dan Fromm]

The 17's are around but fairly difficult to find. I never had any issues with the shutter... quite good IMHO. The Polaroid Tominons are designed specifically for flat field copy work (or macro)... no need to reverse-mount them vs. using enlarging lenses.
I agree with you somewhat on Tominon macro lenses for the MP-4 and on the MP-4's Copal #1 Press shutter. 17s are uncommon, not as good as 16 Luminars but also a lot less expensive; 35 and 50 Tominons are ok, not great but are great buys. 75 and longer MP-4 Tominons aren't, in my experience, so good. But the MP-4 shutter is very useful. So is the #1 Press delivered with 127/4.7 Tominons, and those lenses are really very good, at least on 2x3, from close up to infinity.

But and however, the MP-4 Tominons are supposedly all optimized for magnifications > 1:1, not for enlarging, should be reversed for enlarging.

I don't agree with you that all enlarging lenses need to be reversed to perform well above 1:1. You're right in general, but there are exceptions. For example, my 4"/5.6 Enlarging Pro Raptar oriented normally, with trim ring facing subject, is as good as a 100/6.3 Luminar at all apertures from 1:8 to 4:1. The Luminar is a triplet, isn't symmetrical, the EPR is a 6/4 plasmat and also isn't symmetrical.

When in doubt about what a lens can do, ask the lens. Theory is fun but actual lenses don't always behave as predicted.

Cheers,

Dan

[FilmIsNotDead]

I do tend to generalize too often. There are indeed exceptions to my statement and I should have written, "...no need to reverse-mount them (Tominon copy lenses) vs. using 'most' enlarging lenses.

[Ernest Purdum]

Besides being more expensive, the 17mm is also more difficult to use. That's not a fault of the lens, just that difficulty increases when magnification does.

Dan, I'm guessing you were thinking of only the 17, 35 and 50mm MP-4 lenses regarding "> 1:1". They would be the only ones that would help ShivaShakti achieve his "big magnification macro photography" intent anyway. 75mm is a nice length if you've got a whole bunch of bellows, but since the MP-4 version is an unreversed Tessar like the longer ones, I wouldn't expect it to be useful at macro distances.

[FilmIsNotDead]

A reverse adapter was included in the lens kit that came with the MP-4 for odd situations but it's not worth mentioning, IMHO, because I consider it a pain to use. It screws into the back of the shutter so there's no access to the aperture ring for adjustment without pulling the lens board just before exposure.