Lodima Fine Art Silver Chloride Paper Update #2 7/26/09

[Michael A. Smith]

Lodima Fine Art Silver Chloride Paper Update #2 7/26/09

Lodima Fine Art Silver Chloride Paper will be coated in August. If you have already placed an order, we will be depositing your check or charging your credit card. If you are living outside of the United States and will be wiring payment, we will send you our bank transfer information. This charge is exclusive of shipping charges.

The manufacturer of the paper agreed to coat the paper even though we have not met the minimum quantity they require. As a result of their extensive R&D costs not being recovered, the manufacturer is raising the price of the paper to us.

Because we have made a commitment to those who have ordered paper at our announced price, we will keep the price the same for those who have already placed orders. And we will keep this price until August 7. For all orders places after August 7 there will be new prices.

Size and Quantity Current price Price after August 7
8x10-100 $139.95 $149.95
8x10-250 $324.95 $349.95
9x11-100 $174.95 $189.95
10x12-100 $209.95 $224.95
11x14-100 $269.96 $289.95
8x20-100 $279.95 $299.95
14x17-50 $254.95 $274.95
16x20-50 $279.95 $299.95
20x24-50 $419.94 $449.95
Rolls 60cm x 25m $409.95 $439.95

Now is the time to place an order or to increase the size of your order.

A number of photographers have ordered only one grade of paper. We know of no one who makes negatives so consistently that they need to print on only one grade of paper. Even Ansel Adams with his zone system needed more than one grade of paper. We cannot imagine anything more frustrating than being in the darkroom and finding that we do not have the right grade of paper. Lodima Fine Art comes in grade 2 and grade 3. We advise everyone to order at least one box of each.

As we go forward, we will be stocking paper in both grades, but only in the following sizes.

8x10-100 sheets
8x10-250 sheets
11x14-100 sheets
20x24-50 sheets

We will not stock the other sizes. If you have ordered paper in a size other than those that we will stock, you might want to add to your order at this time.

There have been so few orders for some of the sizes (14 x 17, for example) that we may incur substantial additional set-up charges. If we do, we will let you know, and you might want to change your order (from 14 x 17 to 16 x 20, for example). The set-up charges are likely to be considerably more than the additional cost for a slightly larger size.

Thank you for your interest in and support of Lodima Fine Art Silver Chloride paper. We could not have done this without you.

Michael A. Smith and Paula Chamlee

[John Bowen]

Michael,

Great News!!! I'll review my previous order and see if I need to increase it!

[Michael A. Smith]

There is a typo in our announcement.

In the list of sizes and prices, the second listing for 8x10-100 sheets, should read 8x20-100 sheets.

Michael A. Smith

[Kirk Gittings]

I corrected the typo. Also as many people have pointed out this is a product announcement and should be in the New Products forum, where I moved it too.

[Michael Kadillak]

Is there a problem with allowing this post to reside in both categories? Considering the fact that Michael and Paula for all practical purposes found a way to bring to the market a product that had to be created from scratch with a brand new formula for a silver chloride paper that is actually better than the original paper that it is replacing is an absolutely phenomenal event that should be highlighted on the forums headings as opposed to being relegated to a relatively obscure heading.

Lets face it. Rarely in the conventional markets for photographic materials are new products brought into the market let alone a new B&W paper and as a result few people will investigate this topic. I had to look to find this topic because I did not even know that it was there. I feel that it should not is not causing anyone any heartburn to be so &#$%& politically correct in this instance. Come on. Entrepreneurial activities should be promoted to the fullest intent on this forum and the moderators should stay away from this subject in this instance. Nobody said anything objective or offended anyone in any way shape or form.

Sometimes the best course of action is no action.

[Kirk Gittings]

Is there a problem with allowing this post to reside in both categories?

Yes, the Darkroom, Film Processing, Printing Forum is not ever for selling items. Product announcements belong in the New Products Forum and sales really should be only in the For/Sale Forum.

[Turner Reich]

At $150 doesn't this make it the most expensive paper in 8x10? I wonder what it would have cost if the minimum had been made and the "R&D" costs had been recovered. Was it a rush to market or a compromise for demand? What was the last price for AZO 8x10 before it was gone? If something should happen to the Smiths, God forbid, what will happen to Lodima? I remember Fred Picker and Brilliant paper, there were high hopes and it lasted for a time. Best of luck with the venture, maybe the price will go down a little after it takes hold, only time will tell.

[Michael Kadillak]

Considering what paper stock goes for (after most of the competitors have stopped making it) and that this is a brand new "modern" formula that was made from scratch it is a screaming deal.

Course if you want to ignore the realities of the marketplace and just want to pitch a bitch so be it. IMHO the price of admission even in this market is superior to the alternatives.

Costs are relative. If you want something bad enough there is always a way.

Cheers!

[Michael A. Smith]

To Turner Reich, who objects to the price of the paper:

Not only does the manufacturer have to recoup their costs, including their R&D costs, we do, too. We have been working on this for over five years (since before Kodak discontinued Azo) and it has cost us more money than we had ever imagined, or that you or anyone else can imagine.

We have enough Azo to last us, if not a lifetime, then for another twenty years, which, considering our ages, might be a lifetime. We did this for ourselves, sure, but also for the others in the LF community who want to make the finest possible silver contact prints.

We are not wealthy and can not afford to be a patron to the LF community by subsidizing the paper and taking a loss. Is that what you would like us to do?

If the paper is too expensive for you, don't buy it. But don't complain about the cost. If you had any idea of all of the direct and indirect costs involved in a venture like this, you would think we are under-pricing it. We wanted to make the price reasonable. If we figured the real cost, with everything added in, we would need to sell the paper for a far higher price than it is now priced.

Thanks for wishing us the best of luck. That we finally will have the paper is the only measure of success. So we are successful. The price will not go down. Only up, as the dollar continues to weaken. If you want paper, we suggest you get it now.

Michael A. Smith

[Bruce Barlow]

Turner,

We all look forward to seeing your new paper, which we're sure will be at least as good, and, oh, how 'bout half the price?

Michael and Paula, The check's in the mail, along with the long-considered order. Cash the check so my accounting isn't in limbo!

My trial 7.5 x 10 Lodima produced the finest 5x7 contact prints I have ever made, by far, including on Azo. And unbelievably simple. I used to marvel at Weston's "Daybooks" when he said he rarely needed a second sheet of paper to get a final print. Well, with a fixed setup (light source, print frame, consistently exposed and developed negatives) I can come close to that with Lodima (mebbe two, or three sheets at most, which is more a function of a lack of confidence rather than actually getting it right the first time), so there's an economy there compared to my 4x5 and 35mm enlarging onto "regular" silver paper.

I'm going to play with 4x5 contacts, too, which I love, when I get full 8x10 size. Hurry up!!

[John Bowen]

At $150 doesn't this make it the most expensive paper in 8x10?

Nope, that award goes to Bergger Silver Supreme at $345/100 sheets (at B&H no less):eek: Ilford Gallerie isn't too far behind Lodima and is likely more than $150 at many locations.

[bob carnie]

I am paying over $700 a roll for 50" x 100ft Ilford Warmtone.
I am glad its available.

Though I do not contact print, I think those who do are thankful for M&P efforts to have this paper available.

[William McEwen]

Is there a problem with allowing this post to reside in both categories?

Reminds me of John Cleese, in "The Meaning of Life":

I do wish you'd listen, Wymer. It's perfectly simple. If you're not getting your hair cut, you don't have to move your brother's clothes down to the lower peg. You simply collect his note before lunch, after you've done your scripture prep, when you've written your letter home, before rest, move your own clothes onto the lower peg, greet the visitors, and report to Mr. Viney that you've had your chit signed.

[Stefano]

After the run test of Lodima, I belive that this paper value every cents or euro, and as John Bowen wrote the cost it's not so difference from a Galerie or other particular papers....
I'm so happy for this big result of Michael and Paula effort, I'm used to printing in contact and I'm happy to have a great materials to do it...
Now I'm excited to waiting for my order.....

Stefano

[William McEwen]

At $150 doesn't this make it the most expensive paper in 8x10? I wonder what it would have cost if the minimum had been made and the "R&D" costs had been recovered. Was it a rush to market or a compromise for demand? What was the last price for AZO 8x10 before it was gone? If something should happen to the Smiths, God forbid, what will happen to Lodima? I remember Fred Picker and Brilliant paper, there were high hopes and it lasted for a time. Best of luck with the venture, maybe the price will go down a little after it takes hold, only time will tell.

At $150 a box, there is no way M+P will become millionaires, but as of 7/28/09 in America, businesspeople are still entitled to a profit.

[Daniel Grenier]

...
My trial 7.5 x 10 Lodima produced the finest 5x7 contact prints I have ever made, by far,

Sums it up & says it all. Thanks Bruce.

[Doug Howk]

As I write, I'm looking at an 8X10 print on Lodima paper and am wondering should I get rid of my enlarger. This paper is so good that I plan to do most of my printing on it. The detail, the tonal range and the hint of warmth - outstanding. My hat is off to Michael & Paula for their refusal to let their artistic materials disappear based upon some corporate bean counters. Their efforts will benefit all who appreciate the beauty and ease of use of contact printing. We really owe them a huge debt of gratitude.

[Turner Reich]

We have enough Azo to last us, if not a lifetime, then for another twenty years, which, considering our ages, might be a lifetime. We did this for ourselves, sure, but also for the others in the LF community who want to make the finest possible silver contact prints.

What others?

[Bruce Barlow]

Turner, I'm one of the "others," and I'll be bold and speak for John Bowen, too. In a time when many of the really good materials are disappearing, M&P demonstrate courage far past yours or mine to undertake doing this, and paying for a substantial part of it.

BTW, Lodima beats Silver Supreme and Galerie by far, and I have the prints on all three to prove it.

[Stefano]

I'm an "others" and happy to be!

Stefano

[William McEwen]

I'm waiting for a commercial albumen paper...

[John Bowen]

BTW, Lodima beats Silver Supreme and Galerie by far, and I have the prints on all three to prove it.

For those of you that either don't know or don't remember, Bruce did a series of articles for Veiw Camera (must be a Freudian Slip :D )about 5 years ago. The articles dealt with printing the same negative on about a dozen different papers using about a dozen different papers. The articles are posted on Bruce's www.circleofthesunproductions.com site. You can download them for free. Bruce also wrote an article that was never published by View Camera concerning Azo. This too is available on Bruce's site.

To sum it up, if the guy who actually DID THE WORK to see the differences among so many papers is going to purchase a bunch of Lodima, that just speaks volumes about the quality of this paper. I know my shelves will be well stocked once MAS makes delivery!

[Bruce Barlow]

My 5x7s on Lodima just glow - a word I often use to describe what I want in a print - I want it to glow. Lodima does, almost on the first try. And I made comparison prints on the house brand, and there was no comparison.

But this is what blows me away - I use far less paper to get a fabulous result with Lodima than my other paper ("House Brand" is my frozen stock of Forte Elegance Polygrade V). Even at what Turner feels is a high cost, I think my net cost with Lodima is less because there are fewer prints made to get to the finish line.

Maybe it's just that I'm learning how to work with silver chloride paper. In truth, I don't have nearly as much experience printing Azo as Mr. Bowen, and certainly M&P.

Is what I'm experiencing typical, you experienced folks? I feel like a kid in a candy shop.

[John Bowen]

Bruce,

I think your experience is fairly typical. I use much less Azo/Lodima paper to get to a final print. Peter Schrager sums it up nicely....he refers to it as "cheating."

Someone more qualified than I can explain the science behind it, but it has to do with the curve of the paper. You have more "headroom" (to use an audio term). This allows you to hold your delicate high values AND still get good shadow separation. You can do this with other papers, but it takes MUCH more burning and dodging to see the same results. That's what makes Silver Chloride papers so easy to work with. Edward Weston used Silver Chloride papers and he wrote in his Daybooks how easy it was to get a good print.

The ability to use Amidol and a waterbath to help control contrast doesn't hurt either...

[Michael A. Smith]

Edward Weston used only one sheet of paper sometimes.

Paula and I have never thought of the fact that fewer sheets of paper are needed to get a good print on silver chloride paper and as a result the paper ends up being less expensive than other papers. We will have to get that into our promotional literature--if we ever develop promotional literature.

Thanks Bruce and John. Thanks very much.

Michael A. Smith

[John Bowen]

And don't forget the keeping properties of Silver Chloride paper. I've used some pretty old Azo and with the exception of some Grade 4 which exhibited just a hint of fog and had lost enough contrast to be a Grade 3, I've never had a problem with it keeping. Wish I could say the same for modern VC papers that seem to go bad, VERY BAD within 3 years.

If you are going to stockpile a photo paper the smartest choices are Azo and Lodima.

[John Bowen]

Just a reminder that tomorrow, August 7th is the last day to order Lodima prior to the price increase.

Let's support MAS and at the same time safe ourselves a few $$.