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Jon Warwick
22-Jul-2009, 05:46
I shoot exclusively B&W film in 5x4 (and always Acros 100 Quickloads).

Given Acros 100 is supposedly no longer being produced (that's the case for the UK market from what I'm told, not sure about the rest of the world), I am trying to find alternatives ......... what I liked about Acros 100 was fine grain & sharpness. But, more importantly for me, given I take night-photos, I especially liked its reciprocity characteristics (ie, no adjustment for recipocity for a # of minute shutter speeds).

What's the nearest alternative, especially with regards to reciprocity??

I am assuming that I also now need to head down the non-Quickload route, and will have to start using a tent etc.

Thanks

Jan Pedersen
22-Jul-2009, 06:06
Jon, Acros is not being discontinued, it is only the Quickloads that are going away. So, if you are ready to start using film holders and a tent continue to shoot Acros.

jan

Joanna Carter
22-Jul-2009, 06:23
I shoot exclusively B&W film in 5x4 (and always Acros 100 Quickloads).

Given Acros 100 is supposedly no longer being produced (that's the case for the UK market from what I'm told, not sure about the rest of the world), I am trying to find alternatives ......... what I liked about Acros 100 was fine grain & sharpness. But, more importantly for me, given I take night-photos, I especially liked its reciprocity characteristics (ie, no adjustment for recipocity for a # of minute shutter speeds).

What's the nearest alternative, especially with regards to reciprocity??

I am assuming that I also now need to head down the non-Quickload route, and will have to start using a tent etc.
As Jan says, Acros is not being discontinued, only in QL.

Join us on the UKLFPG forums (www.lf-photo.org.uk/forum) for a continuing discussion of what we intend to do about making the cut sheet film more easily available in the UK.

Pete Roody
22-Jul-2009, 07:01
I thought Fuji was still making Acros QL, they just aren't exporting it anymore. Is that correct? If so, I would think someone will import it as a "grey market" product. Robert White shows Acros QL as a special order with 6 weeks delivery. "Available to special order from Japan; minimum quanity 20 boxes , delivery time 6 weeks." I assume they are importing it this way.

eddie
22-Jul-2009, 07:07
tmax 400 and 100 has similar reciprocity numbers.

Jon Warwick
22-Jul-2009, 09:59
Thanks for the replies. Does anyone know a place in the UK that sells Acros 100 in non-Quickload 5x4 sheets? (I am struggling to find anywhere obvious on the internet). It all seems just Quickload from the places I am looking at (eg, Silverprint; FujiFilm Pro Film Shop; etc), but I daresay I could be looking at the wrong places. Thanks.

SW Rick
22-Jul-2009, 11:07
I'd also read (how accurate the post was, who knows) that it was still being produced, just not imported to US and elsewhere. If so, perhaps we could get together like the ULF folks do, and have someone (I've contacted Badger) bring it in. If I hear anything positive in reply, I'll let you know. Otherwise, I guess it's back to canned air, tents, et al.

Rick

SW Rick
22-Jul-2009, 12:41
Jeff at Badger said fuji doesn't make special orders, so that seemed to kill the idea of getting a volume order together.

What was more interesting is that I then called Fuji USA, and spoke with "Kelly" about this, asking if the rumors/stories were true. She said there had been no announcement of discontinuance (maybe this is the standard announcement, even if the decision has been made), that no films have been discontinued. She said they're aware of the rumors- I suggested they might reassure the QL-consuming public, and she said they'd pass it along. Perhaps others might email or call, if you'd miss the product. Who knows, the discontinuance notice may be sitting by the fax machine for all I know, but it's worth a shot.

BTW, I found some boxes at Chicago's Central Camera (centralcamera.com) at the not-TOO-usurious price of $57.

Rick

Drew Wiley
22-Jul-2009, 12:44
Acros has a very different look from either of the TMax films. It is also a completely
different category of film (Orthopan versus panchromatic). Fuji is overstocked on
ten-sheet boxes, so maybe this is just a temporary ploy to reduce inventory (I certainly hope so! Loved the Quickloads for backpacking!)

CG
22-Jul-2009, 13:15
Try www.japanexposures.com/shop/index.php?cPath=25&sort=2a&filter_id=10

QL still available.

SW Rick
22-Jul-2009, 13:36
Yes, I'd seen that, but $100 a box for 20 sheets, plus shipping from Japan, is a bit much for me. This may be left-over stock; if it's not, that's why I thought of trying to get together a buying consortium and having someone like Badger, which imports Shen Hao, View Camera Store, etc. handle it if they could.

Saw on APUG a post from Scott Sheppard that he's going to have a Fuji person on his analog photo podcast "soon" and will raise the subject of 800Z and other related items.

Turner Reich
22-Jul-2009, 13:40
So if people are still willing to pay say 60 per box why would Fuji discontinue the product? Are they in talks with Kodak? Where is the logic here?

percepts
22-Jul-2009, 13:46
Thanks for the replies. Does anyone know a place in the UK that sells Acros 100 in non-Quickload 5x4 sheets? (I am struggling to find anywhere obvious on the internet). It all seems just Quickload from the places I am looking at (eg, Silverprint; FujiFilm Pro Film Shop; etc), but I daresay I could be looking at the wrong places. Thanks.

As far as I'm aware it has never been imported into the UK. There are various international sellers that do ship it such as the link already given.

percepts
22-Jul-2009, 13:59
So if people are still willing to pay say 60 per box why would Fuji discontinue the product? Are they in talks with Kodak? Where is the logic here?

The logic is in the profit margin which is affected greatly by the shipping and packing cost. Fuji UK have to order by the pallet from japan and the dealers have to order by some smaller size from a pallet. If enough dealers order enough from fuji UK then fuji UK will order a pallet from japan. That's how it works. From that you can read that that there are not enough dealers ordering enough to make it financially viable for fuji UK to order from Japan. Its as simple as that.

But if everyone in the UK bought all their fuji products from only one dealer, then it might become viable for that one dealer to put in big enough orders for it to happen.

I believe that is why fuji UK setup the following site to keep orders coming in as dealers closed down.

http://www.fujilab.co.uk/catalog/

if everyone ordered from them direct then supply would be more reliable. But they won't because they are all cheapskates at heart and will complain bitterly when the product dries up because small dealers and discount shops can't make big enough orders. So shoot yourselves in the foot or smarten up and keep supply going.
Switching to another brand because your discount shop can't supply won't help fuji uk keep the stuff coming in. They are trying very hard to keep supply going but if orders aren't big enough they are not going to order it.

If everyone used twice as much film as they currently do then that would make a big difference. So ultimately it is upto us film photographers to keep the supply going.

semck83
22-Jul-2009, 14:16
TMY may indeed look quite different than Acros, but if you can adjust to that and are just interested in reciprocity, I would indeed recommend it for night shots (which I take a lot of, too). It is slightly faster than Acros up over 10 minutes (metered). That is, a shot at which Acros would be metered at 40 minutes and exposed about 56, TMY would be metered 10 and exposed about 40. At some point, obviously, Acros catches up to TMY, but suffice it to say, TMY is a pretty fast night film.

semck83
22-Jul-2009, 14:28
PS. Two more things. First, I looked into it some and I don't think the spectral sensitivity difference between TM* and Acros is as great as claimed, regardless of the different name. You can google this yourself or I can PM you some links.

Second, I forgot to mention one thing that IS a difference. Although TMY is "faster" through a great range, the fact that it does, nonetheless, have a somewhat less linear / constant reciprocity response does mean that contrast will probably be higher, at least without development corrections. Not having used Acros as much yet (though I'm getting into it), I'm not sure whether this is as absent from Acros as Fuji's documentation would have you believe. Actually, since you have a lot of experience with it, I'd love your opinion on that.

Drew Wiley
22-Jul-2009, 15:38
Don't need to Google anything. I've done tons of testing on both films, probably more
than your sources! Outdoors, ACROS will produce lighter more natural-looking greens,
whereas TM has greater red sensitivity - really quite different both in nature and with
many portraits. Filtration only partially corrects this; and at that point TM100 will
be slower than ACROS. But I shoot both kinds of film for many things. Both deserve
testing with your own subject matter. The new TM400 is a slightly different animal,
and I'm just beginning to work with that. It's also quite promising. My only complaint
on ACROS is that the sheets are acetate base, so a bit flimsy (lack of stiffness which
affects how they lie in a filmholder - really only an issue in 8X10, not 4X5).

Sal Santamaura
22-Jul-2009, 16:56
...My only complaint
on ACROS is that the sheets are acetate base, so a bit flimsy (lack of stiffness which
affects how they lie in a filmholder - really only an issue in 8X10, not 4X5).http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=463841&postcount=12

Ken Lee
22-Jul-2009, 16:58
Drew -

Outdoors, ACROS will produce lighter more natural-looking greens, whereas TM has greater red sensitivity - really quite different both in nature and with many portraits.

Looking at the spectral response curves, I don't see a vast difference. Am I missing something ?

Can you share some photos that illustrate the difference ?

Thanks for sharing !

Here is FujiFilm's spectral response curve for ACROS:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/SpectrumACROS.png

Here is Kodak's spectral response curve for TMX:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/SpectrumTMX.png

Here is Kodak's spectral response curve for TMY:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/SpectrumTMY.png

The spec sheet for ACROS is available at http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/professional/films/pdfs/acros1.pdf

The spec sheet for TMX and TMY is available at http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f4016.pdf

While we're on the subject, here's Ilford HP5+:
http://www.kenleegallery.com/images/forum/SpectrumHP5.png

HP5 spec sheet from http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2007321132461251.pdf (http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2007321132461251.pdf)

Ken Lee
22-Jul-2009, 19:12
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Linear_visible_spectrum.svg

Drew Wiley
22-Jul-2009, 21:19
Thanks Sal. I do have a an official Fuji spec sheet somewhere that lists the SHEET
film as triacetate. There must be a published error somewhere, unless the mfg
method has changed. The 8x10 film is quite thin and certainly feels like acetate.
I am willing to use it only in adhesive-style filmholders due to its lack of stiffness.
4x5 sags a lot less due to the smaller overall dimension. A simple test would be to
punch and register it and see how long the alignment lasts. Acetate loses registration within weeks unless the humidity is constant. In a foggy climate like
the one I live in Newtons rings are a constant nuisance, and this film is slick,
almost as bad as TM100 or TechPan. I find AN glass mandatory; and I do often print
it in several formats. The spectral sensitity becomes dramatically apparent if you
try to use anything stronger than a 25 red filter. A deeper red usable on true pan
films will simply act as a sharp cutoff filter, leaving you shadows blank even with
an extra stop of exposure. The more subtle qualities of its spectral sensitivity are
very desirable to me personally, especially at high altitude. You never quite get
the same "natural" effect with pan films, even filtered.

Drew Wiley
22-Jul-2009, 21:31
Ken - see my previous post. Those spectral curves might look just a little different
to you, but are in fact significantly different. The ACROS essentially "crashes" at
650 nm, while the TM drifts well past that. In the real world it's a big difference.
TM100 in particular can look downright pasty in the red tones, and needs a light
green filter to roughly equate to how ACROS looks unfiltered. I've only run one
batch of field tests on the new TM400, and no densitometer plotting yet, but from
the initial observations, the same stereotype would hold true.

Drew Wiley
22-Jul-2009, 22:31
Sorry Sal, I can't figure out the date on the Japanese tech sheet. Would be nice if
this was going to be on polyester. There's no guarantee that what's on the market
is precisely in sych with the published data, since inventories tend to linger. As you probably know, their chrome sheet film is in transition, with Astia 100F and Velvia 100 now on polyester, but Provia 100F and the remaining inventory of Velvia 50 still on triacetate. The motivation for polyester is allegedly better durability in machine
processing. There might be improvements in scannability too, as Kodak claims. I'd especially like to see Provia switched. I am quite certain my bulk sheets of ACROS are on acetate, but these are 20-sheet boxes. Not a big deal unless one needs to register a mask to the film for printing. I haven't had to do this yet with ACROS. With chrome film it's routine for optical enlargement.

Sal Santamaura
23-Jul-2009, 08:11
Thanks Sal. I do have a an official Fuji spec sheet somewhere that lists the SHEET film as triacetate. There must be a published error somewhere,...In a foggy climate like the one I live in Newtons rings are a constant nuisance, and this film is slick, almost as bad as TM100 or TechPan. I find AN glass mandatory...


Sorry Sal, I can't figure out the date on the Japanese tech sheet. Would be nice if this was going to be on polyester. There's no guarantee that what's on the market is precisely in sych with the published data, since inventories tend to linger...Drew, as best any of us can determine, including Oren Grad, sheet Acros has always been on polyester. Note the "PET" on this data sheet right above "Section 2:"

http://fujifilm.jp/support/pdf/filmandcamera/datasheet/ff_neopan100acrossheet_001.pdf

AN glass will provide no help with Acros (or TMX) Newton's rings since the really intractable ones result from extremely smooth emulsions. AN glass deals with the polyester base side but, unless one is interested in seeing the glass' texture as a 'special effect,' isn't used on the emulsion side. Some people have reported good results using AR-coated glass in contact with the emulsion, but that hasn't cured Acros/TMX Newton's rings for me.

Now that Acros Quickloads are not regularly distributed here, my main motivation for using the film is gone. I'm very happy with Delta 100, especially in DD-X 1:7. The combination exhibits grain nearly as fine as Acros, better sharpness, pretty close spectral sensitivity, a non-glossy emulsion surface and, as a bonus, no drying hole.

Peter De Smidt
23-Jul-2009, 08:32
Howard Bond uses AN glass for both the top and bottom plate in his enlarger with TMX 100. His prints look pretty good.

Sal Santamaura
23-Jul-2009, 09:05
Howard Bond uses AN glass for both the top and bottom plate in his enlarger with TMX 100...Textured anti-newton glass or smooth AR-coated glass?

tgtaylor
23-Jul-2009, 09:22
tmax 400 and 100 has similar reciprocity numbers.

You may want to reconsiderEddie. According to Kodak's TMax Tech Sheet, TMax 100 requires a +1stop compensation at 100 seconds whereas Acros requires no compensation for exposures up to 120 seconds, and a mere 1/2 stop for exposures 120to 1000 seconds.

Earlier this year several of us shot a night landscape at Lands End in San Francisco. Everyone except for myself was using digital cameras. I was using a 6x7 camera with Acros. Couldn't get a reading with the spot meter but I took a que from one of the digital guys who said the image was blown out at 11 minutes. So I started at 7 minutes and got a good image at around 8 or 9 minutes exposure.

Drew Wiley
23-Jul-2009, 09:24
Sal - I often use AN glass on both sides of films like TM. The trick is to have exactly
the right kind of glass in relation to the MTF and angle of incidence between the light
box and the enlarger lens itself. Rather tricky in theory but not so bad in a trial and
error sense. I started out with samples of AN glass from all over the world, and each
of my four enlargers uses a different type! My Condit 8X10 registration glass is also AN.
My 8X10 ACROS film seems to be much more prone to rings than my 4x5 stock, but this
is about to be past history, since it appears quite difficult to get any more of this size,
along with the academic point of what the film base really is (was). Fortunately, my
every day b&w shooting films don't have much of a ring problem. Where things get
crazy is in multi-generational techniques, like masking and separation negs for DT or
even Ciba printing. Have pretty much solved all those issues, but it's certainly a lot
more work than ordinary black and white printing.

Kirk Keyes
23-Jul-2009, 09:36
BTW, I found some boxes at Chicago's Central Camera (centralcamera.com) at the not-TOO-usurious price of $57.

I just called, and they are out now.

Peter De Smidt
23-Jul-2009, 10:21
Textured anti-newton glass or smooth AR-coated glass?

Textured. In addition, the bed on my Screen Cezanne has a very fine anti-newton texture on it. Convinced that this would cause degradation, I built a bed with optical glass. 5300spi scans showed no difference in sharpness or detail.

This doesn't mean that any anti-newton glass would be ok in the optical path, as some are much coarser than others.

semck83
23-Jul-2009, 10:51
Don't need to Google anything. I've done tons of testing on both films, probably more
than your sources! Outdoors, ACROS will produce lighter more natural-looking greens,
whereas TM has greater red sensitivity - really quite different both in nature and with
many portraits. Filtration only partially corrects this; and at that point TM100 will
be slower than ACROS. But I shoot both kinds of film for many things. Both deserve
testing with your own subject matter. The new TM400 is a slightly different animal,
and I'm just beginning to work with that. It's also quite promising. My only complaint
on ACROS is that the sheets are acetate base, so a bit flimsy (lack of stiffness which
affects how they lie in a filmholder - really only an issue in 8X10, not 4X5).

I will happily bow to your superior experience, then. I look forward to testing Acros more. I continue to maintain, though, that TMY is a pretty good night film, although perhaps one would have to live with more filtering or more difference than I suggested.

Sal Santamaura
23-Jul-2009, 10:53
...I often use AN glass on both sides of films like TM. The trick is to have exactly the right kind of glass in relation to the MTF and angle of incidence between the light box and the enlarger lens itself...


Textured. In addition, the bed on my Screen Cezanne has a very fine anti-newton texture on it. Convinced that this would cause degradation, I built a bed with optical glass. 5300spi scans showed no difference in sharpness or detail.

This doesn't mean that any anti-newton glass would be ok in the optical path, as some are much coarser than others.Interesting. I suppose Drew and Howard are exposing prints at maxiumum enlarging lens aperture to keep lower glass texture out of focus. Is any pattern visible in smooth-toned areas such as clear sky?

Drew Wiley
23-Jul-2009, 14:32
Exactly, Sal, very shallow depth of field with an enlarging lens of longer than "normal"
focal length (for both eveness of field nearly wide open, and very precisely aligned),
plus no extreme MTF's like you would find in an Apo-Rodagon or Apo EL-nikkor. I do
use standard Apo-Nikkors and Rodagons for this purpose. Both Durst and Omega AN
glasses work quite well - they have a "ripple" pattern rather than "sandblasted" look.
I also have some high-end AN glass from Belgium (no longer available). Focal-Point AN
glass works fine for color printing, but I might not choose it for high-contrast (hard
grade) B&W printing. All light sources are diffusion of course, no condensors.

SW Rick
27-Jul-2009, 13:10
Returning to the original thread, I had ordered from a vendor who said it was in stock, but when I called to ask where it is, they admitted it is not in stock, but would send it "when they get it". Called Fuji in NY HQ, and finally spoke with someone who didn't inspire me with confidence, but told me "it unfortunately has been discontinued". RIP B&W Quickloads. Unlike Kodak, which had the decency to alert users re. Kodachrome, Fuji has taken a screw you position. I've bought my last Fuji film.

percepts
28-Jul-2009, 04:51
Returning to the original thread, I had ordered from a vendor who said it was in stock, but when I called to ask where it is, they admitted it is not in stock, but would send it "when they get it". Called Fuji in NY HQ, and finally spoke with someone who didn't inspire me with confidence, but told me "it unfortunately has been discontinued". RIP B&W Quickloads. Unlike Kodak, which had the decency to alert users re. Kodachrome, Fuji has taken a screw you position. I've bought my last Fuji film.

It makes laugh when photographers take this attitude. Most of them are going digital as fast as they can and saying screw you to the film manufacturers. So when the film manufacturers start to cut back on manufacturer because no one is buying their film, the remaining photographers blame the film manufacturers as if the digtal advance was their fault. Its pathetic. The one manufacturer who will still be producing film when all the others have gone will be fuji. You'll be back like a little lost sheep finding its way home.

http://www.photoness.de/yodo_analog/

SW Rick
28-Jul-2009, 08:44
Talk about pomposity! What's wrong with expecting a vendor to give some advance notice a product will be discontinued? No, Fuji just lets the supply run out, won't answer questions about whether it's still going to be available or not until yesterday. Kodak had the decency to announce discontinuance of ReadyLoads (due to their supplier, Polaroid, going belly up) and of Kodachrome with 6 months notice and arranging for processing to be available thru 2010. I'll go totally digital before I'd rely of Fuji- no sheep here!

percepts
28-Jul-2009, 10:16
so you expected personal notification did you? And how many sheets of acros quickload were using a year? I'd hazard a guess that it wasn't enough to make it worthwhile for a local dealer to stock it let alone fuji USA and you want personal notification.
Its still available if you want to order it internationally. Its the jerk at fuji USA who you should be jumping on for telling you its discontinued which is a lie. They have just stopped ordering it because not enough people are buying it. Not quite the same thiing.

Joanna Carter
28-Jul-2009, 10:27
Its still available if you want to order it internationally. Its the jerk at fuji USA who you should be jumping on for telling you its discontinued which is a lie. They have just stopped ordering it because not enough people are buying it. Not quite the same thiing.
Unfortunately, that's not true. Fuji in Japan have apparently stopped making Acros in QL; the only reason you can still buy it from certain suppliers is because they have residual stock.

percepts
28-Jul-2009, 11:30
Unfortunately, that's not true. Fuji in Japan have apparently stopped making Acros in QL; the only reason you can still buy it from certain suppliers is because they have residual stock.

I stand corrected.

percepts
28-Jul-2009, 11:33
Talk about pomposity! What's wrong with expecting a vendor to give some advance notice a product will be discontinued? No, Fuji just lets the supply run out, won't answer questions about whether it's still going to be available or not until yesterday. Kodak had the decency to announce discontinuance of ReadyLoads (due to their supplier, Polaroid, going belly up) and of Kodachrome with 6 months notice and arranging for processing to be available thru 2010. I'll go totally digital before I'd rely of Fuji- no sheep here!

I demand that you give the film manufacturers 6 months notice before you stop buying film:p

Joanna Carter
28-Jul-2009, 11:50
I demand that you give the film manufacturers 6 months notice before you stop buying film:p
Actually, that is, sort of, one of the problems. When Fuji announced they were withdrawing the old Velvia 50, quite a few folks went out and bought a freezer and as much film as they could afford. Now, Fuji are saying that the sales of the new Velvia 50 are not living up to their expectations, based on the furore the withdrawal of the old film created.

It's really simple; nobody wants to buy the new film because they already have a freezer full of the old stuff that could take several years to use.

Let's just hope that they have enough sense not to kill the new film due to low sales :rolleyes: :confused: :eek:

Drew Wiley
28-Jul-2009, 12:11
A lot of manufacturers are subject to the same sort of panic mentality that is afflicting the banking industry and everyone else for that matter at the moment. This
means that a lot of corporations are under a lot of pressure to cut inventories, selection, staff, whatever is necessary to make the books look healthy. This is an
international problem. Sometimes companies do things sensibly, but there is also a lot
of seemingly counterproductive kneejerk reaction to the financial outlook. I'm not guessing about this - this is how I make most of my living. Times are especially turbulent; and Fuji even in the past wasn't known for its skill at communication. It
probably has a lot less to do with film vs digital than looking for places to cut almost
at random - say,for example, 10% across the board in each department. This is how
big corporate management thinks. They generally aren't very good at micromanaging.
So I don't think it achieves anything to go around second-guessing why a big company
like Fuji made a decision like this - it doesn't even have to make sense. Stuff happens.

percepts
28-Jul-2009, 12:14
Changing the subject, where is that swimming pool located (Victoria Baths - Gala Pool) on your web site. Looks very similar to one in Swindon.

Joanna Carter
28-Jul-2009, 13:01
Changing the subject, where is that swimming pool located (Victoria Baths - Gala Pool) on your web site. Looks very similar to one in Swindon.
The baths are in South Manchester. I just took a look at some piccies of the Swindon baths; they look like they could make an interesting day out for the UKLFPG. Send me a PM will you?

ndavid813
19-Dec-2009, 21:23
Though not QL, I'm buying Acros in Tokyo for 2,780 yen for a box of 20 (Bic camera web site http://www.biccamera.com/bicbic/jsp/w/catalog/detail.jsp?JAN_CODE=4902520217257)
Bic also still shows Acros QL's for sale as well.