LF Aquarium Photography--insane?

[Sylvester Graham]

Been a while since I've been on LFforum for anything other than to pawn my posessions. I had this crazy idea that with 1k of my own money + selling almost all of my 35mm gear on ebay I would be able to afford a leica M8 and two lenses. Long story short I'll probably have to wait 15 years for that to happen, I noticed the prices for used LF lenses have come down, so I got a Shen Hao and a 150 and 300, and really looking forward to it. I always loved LF.

Anyway. For the longest time I've wanted to photograph fish in an aquairium with LF.
Indeed, this very thing was discouraged here: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=37245&highlight=aquarium+photography

I'm hoping to work around f/32 and between 1/60-1/125 with HP5, am willling to push to 800. This will require a lot of light, aka, flash. Unfortunately, I don't have the money for the type of flashes I'd need for this. I was instead going to use DIY hardware store kit.

Here's the plan: 12" long tank. A sheet of plexi slipped in to make the swimming area about 2" deep so the fish can't get away from me. On the bottom a piece of textured aluminum foil. A sheet of plexi on top polished with 220 grit sandpaper for diffusion. Above the tank, as much wattage as I can get, probably a 500 watt worklight. I think I might need more wattage, but above a 12" tank they simply wont fit.

Is there any way to make this work without buying/renting really expensive strobes? Am I kidding myself?

Why do I want to use LF? As mentioned in the link I posted, the hardest part won't be the actual photography, but the patience and timing required for the "subjects" to perform. With an LF camera and a small tank, I plan on just framing the entire tank and then cropping down to wherever I need.

Thanks-

-Alex

[Pete Roody]

you might want to check out amano takashi's work shooting aquariums with ulf cameras:

www.amanotakashi.net/

[Sylvester Graham]

you might want to check out amano takashi's work shooting aquariums with ulf cameras:

www.amanotakashi.net/

Yeah, I've seen his stuff. Pretty good. Doesn't he design those aquairums too?

I'm not sure how he does it. But I was thinking much simpler. Like only fish on a black backdrop, and I'd like to have enough light for a short enough shutter. Amano's work could have been taken with considerably long speeds, since fish are small or absent.

[Sylvester Graham]

Ok, let me rephrase. I want to photograph fish, horizontally, preferably without a flash. What's the best way?

[Scott Davis]

Something to think about- the work lights will probably boil the fish alive, especially if you confine them to a 2" wide trough. At 6" working distance, though, you'd be amazed at how much light a Vivitar 283 can pump out. And a bunch of those, wired up with optical slaves, would still be pretty cheap.

[eric black]

Underwater photography of fish while scuba diving is enough of a challenge for me (I do it as a hobby) but dont let that stop you, just go into it knowing that fish will be the most uncooperative subjects you will have ever experienced. For the aquarium, sunlight will probably be your best light source and since you are contemplating such a samll tank, figure out how to get it outside or find some way to pipe natural sunlight in (ie shooting in a greenhouse) to act as your light source. To give you an idea of what typical settings would be in the shallows (which you will be approximating with your set up)- I typically use settings of f/11-16 and 1/60 second for iso100 film. Strobes if used would need seperate calculations to determine the amount of light that actually gets into the tank (as opposed to what is just reflected away).

Now for some other logistics to consider- fish are somewhat sensitive to the environment they are in so ideally, you would be taking them from a larger tank and figuring how to keep the water the same as the larger tank- this can be done by filling the tank you will shoot in immediately prior to the transfer of the fish from the larger water source. The return of the fish should only require temperature acclimation if a significant change has occured during the shoot. You may want to read up on fish acclimation and relative sensitivity of your subjects on the web prior to shooting, especially if you are thinking saltwater fish which can get expensive and are much more sensitive to changes than freshwater species.

To prevent stray reflections during the shoot, I would rig up a dark cloth like hood between the aquarium glass and the camera lens

Some other things to think about- most aquarium glass is slightly green and will impart a color cast to what you are shooting- you get to pay extra for low iron glass (sometimes referred to as starphire) to avoid this.

Hope some of this helps

[Dan Fromm]

amilne, William T. Innes, the father of all aquarium photographers, shot aquarium fishes for his magazine The Aquarium in the 1930s with a Graflex (SLR) using sunlight for illumination. I believe the he constrained his subjects with a pane of glass.

Graflex, not a view camera. Only a masochist would try to shoot a moving subject at high magnification with a view camera.

I don't know what the digidiots do, but when film was king all published aquarium photographers used SLRs with electronic flash. I surveyed the best in the field and found a remarkably tight consensus. SLR, usually but not always 35 mm. Almost always K25 in 35 mm SLRs. Electronic flash. And we all used the same flash-camera-tank geometry.

Eric, flash overpowers ambient. Very very handy. I don't know why you think window glass gives a color cast, yours is very much a minority view; it is indeed a very weak green filter, but when shooting "straight in" it is quite a thin weak green filter.

The trick with electronic flash is not TTL metering, it is a fixed flash setup that's been calibrated.

[Nathan Potter]

You really need to use flash. Get 2 to 4 cheap units on ebay or local Craigslist. Bring them in close to the aquarium window for the actual shoot and run them manually. But first do an exposure calibration at working distance using a grey card and use what you will consider your standard development whether color or B&W. Try to obtain enough intensity so you work at about 1/1000 sec. flash duration or shorter. I know this can be done because I've done it with insects in a glass window squeeze box.

If you shoot in color don't worry about green soda lime glass unless your aquarium walls are unusually thick and even then with the camera axis orthogonal to the glass color shift will be slight as Fromm has mentioned above.

The key here is unless you are quite familiar with this type of closeup work you need to take your time and proceed systematically. Seems you are on the right track already.

Nate Potter, Harrington ME.

[Sylvester Graham]

Ok, thanks. I have never used flash for anything. In fact I don't know the first thing about it. Have always shot natural light. I can figure most of it out myself probably, but any tips for a beginner as related to this particular subject? Like, Dan, how to get this mentioned fixed and calibrated flash setup? I'm shooting BW, so no problem with color casts.

Also, won't I need a light meter that can measure flash? I only have a gossen digisix and a spot. I really don't think I can cough up $200 for a new meter. In any case everyone's comments are duly noted. I'll see if it will work or not this way--I'll only have wasted $11 for the work light and $20 for the plexi--and then look into the flashes. After getting the new camera and lenses, I really am strapped for cash, so even the proposed four $50 flashes and accompanying meter is dubious.

[Scott Davis]

Well, with the Vivitars, you can set them on Manual, fix the power output, then measure the distance and calculate the f-stop (there are distance charts out there that will help in this regard). Since you'll be confining the fish to a very shallow, narrow tank, the distance will be easy enough to calculate and factor in as a constant. You can figure it out for one flash, then if you set additional flashes at the same distance, just add one extra stop for the first flash, then one more for the next two, and so on. Take away a half-stop for the water, and you'll be in good shape.

[dsphotog]

Hi Alex,
Sounds like a great project!
I've found animals & children the most difficult & the most rewarding of subjects!
Another vote for flash, the quick duration will stop motion. The high output will allow stopping down, for max DOF.
Up close, one flash is likely all you need. I'd try some backlighting the fish.
If you have a digi cam, you could test shoot with that.....Digital is after all, the new Polaroid.

Happy shooting,
David S.
Modesto, Ca.

[Dan Fromm]

[QUOTE=amilne;488679]Ok, thanks. I have never used flash for anything. In fact I don't know the first thing about it. Have always shot natural light. I can figure most of it out myself probably, but any tips for a beginner as related to this particular subject? Like, Dan, how to get this mentioned fixed and calibrated flash setup? I'm shooting BW, so no problem with color casts./QUOTE]

Calibrate with reversal film, either color or b/w processed as reversal. This because negative film has such broad latitude that its very hard to tell which aperture is best.

If you have a 35 mm SLR and macro lens, use it for calibration. Less expensive than calibrating with larger format color film and the best setting for small format will be right for large too.

Pick a flash/camera/subject geometry. The usual has the film plane parallel to the front of the tank and the flashes (2 of 'em) on stands, the flashes' axes at 45 degrees to the tank's front. Pick a cooperative subject -- I usually use a plant, they don't run away or deport badly -- and shoot it at the camera's highest sync speed and every aperture from largest to smallest. I go in one stop steps, if you're really picky go in half stop steps. Do this at at least three magnifications. I use 1:4, 1:2, and 1:1.

After the film is processed, examine it and pick the aperture that gave the best exposure for each magnification. If the best two are respectively, a bit over and a bit under, then the best is midway between 'em.

When actually shooting, replicate the setup -- geometry, distances, flashes, power settings -- used for calibration, pick the magnification you want to work at, dial in the best aperture for that magnification, and you're ready to go. If the desired magnification is between the ones used for calibration, interpolate linearly between the best apertures at the apertures used for calibration.

Refinements are possible. Vivitar 283s accept the VP-1 unit which allows output to be turned down as much as six stops. I use a pair of 283s with VP-1s on my portable fish studio. This is a small thin aquarium, bracket to hold aquarium and 283s; depending on the situation I attach it to a tripod or just plop it down on the hood of whatever vehicle I'm using. Using 283s with VP-1s gives nearly full control of aperture; out-of-doors the limit is the aperture at which the highest sync speed gives two stops underexposure with ambient. With fixed-output flashes I sometimes put ND gels on the flash to be able to shoot at a larger aperture than full power wants.

There are some applications for which an SLR is the best tool. Shooting live fish in aquariums is one. If you've set your heart on shooting fish with a format larger than 35 mm, this means, at most, 6x7.

W. T. Innes was a pioneer and a hero; his Graflex is, by modern standards, much too slow-working. If you must shoot live fish in aquariums with 3x4 or 4x5, your best bet is a Graflex Super D with preset diaphragm, but these beasts don't sync with electronic flash so have to be used in bright sunlight.

This isn't the best way, most, not all, fish lose color and deport poorly when moved from their home tank and put in a photo tank. As I said, WTI was a hero. And he retouched heavily. And he owned the print shop ...

[Dan Fromm]

Well, with the Vivitars, you can set them on Manual, fix the power output, then measure the distance and calculate the f-stop (there are distance charts out there that will help in this regard). Since you'll be confining the fish to a very shallow, narrow tank, the distance will be easy enough to calculate and factor in as a constant. You can figure it out for one flash, then if you set additional flashes at the same distance, just add one extra stop for the first flash, then one more for the next two, and so on. Take away a half-stop for the water, and you'll be in good shape.Scott, if auto-TTL flash isn't used, calculation is a poor substitute for shooting for calibration. Been there, done that.

One of the reasons is that flashes' claimed guide numbers are usually exagerated. The only ways to find out how powerful a flash are to use a flash meter -- I do, that's why I know that in general outputs are less than claimed -- or to shoot for calibration.

BTW, you forgot that when shooting into an aquarium, part of the flash's output will be reflected from the front of the tank and will be lost. How much depends on the angle of incidence. Another reason to use the same geometry every time and to shoot for calibration.

Cheers,

Dan

[Sylvester Graham]

Ok, truth be told, this is a DSLR image, and manipulated quite a bit tonally. I used it as a meter as per the suggestion, didn't use flash, but a 500W halogen, and crinkled aluminum foil on the bottom of the tank for a reflector. The 4x5s will be on their way to the lab tomorrow. Still, I do think what I wanted to do can be done. The motion was what I was going for.