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Carl Schofield
13-Jul-2009, 09:25
I want to mix some XTOL developer and need a 5 liter plastic beaker or graduate. Looked at the formulary and nasco, but both are out of stock on this item. Can anyone recommend alternatives?

Gem Singer
13-Jul-2009, 09:33
Pick up a large plastic pitcher designed to hold juice or lemon aid. Just make sure it can hold 5 liters, or more of liquid.

I was looking at a large Rubbermaid pitcher at Wal-Mart this morning.

jeroldharter
13-Jul-2009, 11:07
This is what I use:

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/variant.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=4&product_id=11858&variant_id=77096

They are solid and work very well. Heavy when full but they pour cleanly.

BarryS
13-Jul-2009, 11:10
Home Depot and Lowes have all sorts of plastic paint mixing buckets. I use them for mixing all sorts of chems.

Carl Schofield
13-Jul-2009, 11:31
Thanks all for the tips and leads. That USP beaker is just what I was looking for.

Gem Singer
13-Jul-2009, 11:39
An autoclaveable polypropylene beaker for $33.49 + shipping?

Isn't that overkill?

A 5 liter juice container can be purchased for around $5-$8 and is just as well suited for the purpose.

Ken Lee
13-Jul-2009, 12:08
Another vote for the affordable lemonade pitcher. You can dust determine where 5 liters is, and draw a line with an indelible pen.

Or you can use a smaller and even more affordable pitcher: filling and pouring it X times.

Ron Marshall
13-Jul-2009, 12:58
I bought a $3 plastic bucket, filled it with 5 liters, then scratched a fill line into the plastic. It has a built-in pour spout.

Carl Schofield
13-Jul-2009, 13:10
I checked out all of the local kitchen/restaurant supply stores, Walmart, Target, Lowes, etc. and could find no 5 liter pitchers or juice containers. A couple of 1 gal containers, but not quite enough capacity for mixing 5 liters of XTOL. If someone can give me an online link to a 5 liter lemonade pitcher that would be great. Closest thing I could find was Barry's suggestion for a paint mixing bucket, but the one I found looked like it might be sloppy for pouring. Maybe I'm not thinking right about how to mix XTOL. Kodak says to start by dissolving part A in 4 liters of water and then add and dissolve part B followed by an additional 1 liter of water. Sounds to me like one needs to start with at least a 5 liter beaker, pitcher, or wide mouth jug to do this properly.

BarryS
13-Jul-2009, 13:39
Carl-- A one gallon container is fine for XTOL stock. I used to mix it up all the time in 4 liters to end up with a 1.25X stock solution. Let's say you need 500 ml of 1+1 working solution (0.5X). 1.25/0.5X= 2.5X dilution factor. That's 1 part stock plus 1.5 parts water. So 500ml/2.5= 200ml stock + 300ml water.

Carl Schofield
13-Jul-2009, 13:42
Carl-- A one gallon container is fine for XTOL stock. I used to mix it up all the time in 4 liters to end up with a 1.25X stock solution. Let's say you need 500 ml of 1+1 working solution (0.5X). 1.25/0.5X= 2.5X dilution factor. That's 1 part stock plus 1.5 parts water. So 500ml/2.5= 200ml stock + 300ml water.

Thanks Barry. That nicely simplifies the procedure and the container requirements.

photographs42
13-Jul-2009, 13:48
Like Ron, I use a plastic bucket. It is probably around 2 Gal. which is nice because I don’t have to worry about slooping it out when I stir it. Plus the handle and pour spout are nice. I do the measuring with SS 1 qt. beakers.
Jerome

jeroldharter
13-Jul-2009, 15:05
An autoclaveable polypropylene beaker for $33.49 + shipping?

Isn't that overkill?
....

Of course...

But it is 5000 ml which was the original question and using it avoids the hassle of calculating other dilutions.

The 3000 ml beakers are much more economical. Don't know why the large ones cost so much.

One reason I don't like buckets is that they are too wide for my preference and sink space, have handles that are often difficult to remove, and they have a lip which can be annoying to keep very clean. Also, it is rather difficult to find a 1 gallon bucket as I recall.

A pitcher with manually drawn measures would be a better DIY option. But the pitchers I like are $40...

Gem Singer
13-Jul-2009, 16:53
Jerold,

There is no shortage of money in my case. However, there is a matter of principle.

Before I would spend $30, or $40 dollars on a water pitcher, because a manufacturer insists on marketing it's developer in 5 liter packages, I would choose a different developer. And I did.

If Kodak would have put Xtol in 1 gallon packages, they probably would sell a lot more.

I suppose Kodak had a reason for offering Xtol in 5 liter packages. I've yet to figure out that reason.

Keith Pitman
13-Jul-2009, 17:03
Restaurant supply stores have great darkroom equipment at reasonable prices. Great place to shop for trays, measuring containers, stirring spoons, etc.

photographs42
13-Jul-2009, 20:39
Jerold,

There is no shortage of money in my case. However, there is a matter of principle.

Before I would spend $30, or $40 dollars on a water pitcher, because a manufacturer insists on marketing it's developer in 5 liter packages, I would choose a different developer. And I did.

If Kodak would have put Xtol in 1 gallon packages, they probably would sell a lot more.

I suppose Kodak had a reason for offering Xtol in 5 liter packages. I've yet to figure out that reason.

When Xtol was first introduced it was available in 1 gal. size. As I understand it, they had a problem with consistency is small amounts. I used several of the 1 gal. size and never had a problem.
Jerome

Gem Singer
13-Jul-2009, 21:04
Jerome,

I'm quite sure that was 1 liter, not 1 gallon. For some mysterious reason the 1 liter
packages went bad on the shelf, and Kodak discontinued them.

They only make Xtol in 5 liter packages now.

Jim Michael
14-Jul-2009, 04:34
Something a little less spendy from google '5000 ml plastic beaker' http://www.enasco.com/product/SB37394M?ref=rel_item

Mick Fagan
14-Jul-2009, 04:59
Gem Singer, quite a few years ago, about 20 in fact, I was helping a friend pick up some darkroom chemistry for the school he taught at.

The real reason I helped was because I included my order with his, to get the school discount pricing. :D

On that day I found out something interesting, the photographic dealer, who was an ex Kodak guru now in his own business, was trying to flog some Kodak chemistry that he had an excess of.

The teacher said he would love to use it, but as it mixed up to a gallon, and an American gallon at that, the education department wouldn't allow it, we are a metric country and the little ones have enough difficulty figuring out metric mathematics. :rolleyes:

That was his explanation and the dealer knew it as it was obviously a recent ruling, otherwise he wouldn't have had so much in stock.

At that time we still had an Ilford Australia, guess what, in no time they had converted all of their locally manufactured developer, and/or chemistry kits to metric. As a result they managed to get the Lion's share of the school market, they were just starting to lose a bit of ground to Kodak, when Kodak ceased B&W paper production.

You can figure out the outcome on the paper one, I'm sure.

Mick.

Steaphany
14-Jul-2009, 05:33
Cole Palmer is a great source of labware. I did a quick search and they have 5l beakers:

BEAKER W/HANDLE PP 5000ML 1/PK (http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=6100062)

venchka
14-Jul-2009, 05:52
2 gallon plastic bucket with liter divisions. Lowe's, Home Depot, Walmart, Everywhere. That handles mixing.

Storage is in empty wine in a box bladders & boxes. For me, this is a one shot deal. I have to get more bladders each time I mix Xtol. An online source of empty, reuseable 1 gallon bladder+box is available. GOOGLE knows. It takes two of either. Since these things exclude air, that's not a problem.

I have decent negatives proving that the above works.

Fixer is stored in half gallon amber Arizona Tea bottles in the dark. It doesn't have to stored like that. It just is.

Gem Singer
14-Jul-2009, 06:11
Mick Fagan,

Xtol was patented by Kodak in 1998. It wasn't available twenty years ago.

Xtol powder was originally marketed in 1 liter and 5 liter envelopes. Metric amounts right from the beginning. When they went bad on the shelf, Kodak quickly discontinued the smaller packages

explaining that the 1 liter envelopes were faulty. They could have corrected the problem with the packaging, but for some mysterious reason, they choose not to.


Steaphany, those PP beakers at Cole palmer are the same ones that US Plastic sells for $10 less.

Gem Singer
14-Jul-2009, 06:16
Wayne,

There is no reason to store fixer in amber bottles and keep them in a dark place.

Fixer does not oxidize, nor is it sensitive to light.

Mick Fagan
14-Jul-2009, 06:26
Gem Singer, thanks for the information. Not being a user of Xtol, I'm not up with it's history.

In that case a 5 litre minimum is a little odd, one would have thought that eventually a 1 or 2 litre package would have eventuated.

That said, in this country Kodak didn't help themselves with their US gallons, quarts and pints.

25 years ago I was in Germany and saw Ilford chemicals packed for 600ml of film developer, ID11.

I didn't pick up on it at first, then I realised that the Jobo rotary system, which was extremely popular in Germany, used 600ml (580ml I think) of developer for their most popular drum with 135 film, or 300ml (270 actually) for 4x5" film with the small tank on their CPE2

Fleet of foot, or just a smaller company able to change a bit faster, or maybe just more hungry.

Mick.

venchka
14-Jul-2009, 06:26
Y'all have fun!

jeroldharter
14-Jul-2009, 06:42
Something a little less spendy from google '5000 ml plastic beaker' http://www.enasco.com/product/SB37394M?ref=rel_item

I checked it out. If the photo is accurate, the beaker is identical to the US Plastics beaker and an excellent price. Thanks for posting that.

Gem Singer
14-Jul-2009, 06:43
Hey Wayne,

Don't go away angry.

I just wanted to make sure that some darkroom newbie didn't get the wrong idea.

Have a nice day.

venchka
14-Jul-2009, 06:53
Who me? Angry? Nope.

http://www.enasco.com/prod/images/products/09/AC070563l.jpg

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.................

Edit to fix an oops: Carl, if you haven't mixed Xtol before, I suggest you get a bucket. 2 gallons with liter graduations. Part A takes some serious mixing to get it all dissolved. I use a large wooden spoon and beat the heck out of the solution. When ALL of A is dissolved. Every SPECK of solids are in solution. I add part B. B dissolves almost instantly. Decant into wine bladders. Store in refrigeratior next to my fixer. Lasts a good long time.

Or, buy two of these. Or buy 1 of these and use up the extra 1.2 liters quickly.

http://www.survivalsolutions.com/store/product41.html

Regardlless of your solution, remember to have fun!

Cheers!

jeroldharter
14-Jul-2009, 07:13
I use Xtol also along with one of these military priced 5000 ml beakers that people are picking on. It does work well though. I can't recommend wooden utensils for mixing chemicals though. I use a magnetic stirrer bought used for a reasonable price similar to this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Fisher-Scientific-120M-Thermix-Magnetic-Stirrer_W0QQitemZ200361081846QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2ea6737bf6&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65:12|66:4|39:1|72:1205|293:1|294:200

The 5l beaker just fits on top, perhaps less tippy than a bucket would be. I set it to a medium speed so that the stirring is not so violent as to tip over the contraption and then I walk away. I check periodically to make sure everything is mixed up. I hate trying to stir in the last bits of gravel from powdered chemicals and this method saves me from that.

These forums are great. Where else can you get pages of opinions about beakers, buckets and pitchers?

venchka
14-Jul-2009, 07:19
Where else can you get 3 pages on a one sentence answer? ;) :D :cool:

I just use what I have handy. It seems to work.

Steaphany
14-Jul-2009, 07:47
Steaphany, those PP beakers at Cole palmer are the same ones that US Plastic sells for $10 less.

Thanks for the tip, It's always good to know where resellers and distributors get their stock. I never said that Cole Palmer was the cheapest, but they have a good selection and knew they would have 5l beakers.

Carl Schofield
14-Jul-2009, 12:16
Where else can you get 3 pages on a one sentence answer? ;) :D :cool:

I just use what I have handy. It seems to work.

Now its 4 pages. I'm really overwhelmed by all the responses. Great range of options and good advice. Thanks to all for your contributions.

tgtaylor
15-Jul-2009, 11:05
I faced the same problem when I started using Xtol. I bought an inexpensive plastic mixing bucket at an Ace hardware store for $5 that will hold 5 liters but that brings the liquid level almost to the top. Since I store developer in an Arkay floating lid tank that will hold a lot more, I measured out 4 liters of liquid and marked that line on both the bucket and the Arkay. Then I marked the 5 liter line on the tank. I mix the Xtol in the bucket until dissolved, transfer it to the tank, and top off to the 5 liter mark. Simple. Xtol will last 6 months in a tank with a floating lid and the bucket, tank, spigot all came to about $35 - cheaper than the 5 liter pitcher and the storage issue is taken care of.

Note: You could mix it entirely in the tank which I have done. However unsightly brown spots appear on the upper parts of the tank on the inside from splashes from the mixing paddle. They wash off but I like a "clean looking" tank so I use the bucket.

Ari
17-Jul-2009, 15:32
Carl,
I went to the Dollarama (everything for a dollar) here, and bought a mop and plastic bucket for the mop (they sold together for $3...so much for the store name).
The bucket holds about 6 litres of fluid, and is quite sturdy.

EdWorkman
17-Jul-2009, 17:14
Gallo wine comes in 4 liter glass bottles- invite some friends to a sangria party.
I mix Xtol in an applejuice version, but applejuice is now in plastic in that size.
Everything will dissolve in 4 liters, and I use arithmetic to come out with the equivalent of 1:3 dilution, like Barry said. A gallon is 128 oz, filled to the top my bottle is 143 oz, I measured using water before I started.
You need at least a 5 liter bucket to follow the directions, but you don't need to follow the directions to get it to come out right.