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Petzval Paul
21-Jun-2009, 11:53
Hi everyone,

I have an old lens that is mounted in a B&L twin-piston shutter. It's a bit similar to the Unicom ones which seem common enough, but it lacks the aperture scale along the bottom and instead the aperture dial is mounted behind the shutter-speed wheel at the top (making two wheels, one behind the other). Not sure what the name of this shutter could be and I have looked everywhere with no success.

The problem is that the shutter is dead. The first question I have is simply: is it worth it to try and fix this old bad boy? I only shoot collodion so I really don't need the shutter, but it would be nice to have it working, so at least I can use it on bulb for the long exposures. Alternatively, were these old shutters made so that the sizes were somewhat standardized? IOW, could I find a replacement shutter (preferably non-pneumatic) that would fit the same threading of my lens?

Thanks,

Paul

Archphoto
21-Jun-2009, 12:06
Is it worth it ? In my opinion YES

One the other hand: how much do you want for it (as is ) ?
I recently got a full plate camera for free her that needs a shutter.......

Peter :D

Darren Kruger
21-Jun-2009, 12:56
IOW, could I find a replacement shutter (preferably non-pneumatic) that would fit the same threading of my lens?

There is a small chance there is a more modern shutter that would work. What are the thread measurements for the lens from the shutter? How thick is the shutter where the cells screw in?

More than likely you would need to get some adapters made to get the cells to fit a more modern shutter.

-Darren

GPS
21-Jun-2009, 14:01
These shutters, if not missing parts, are not difficult to be repaired. But when it comes to precision they are almost good for nothing. Their speeds are not reliable and can vary a lot on the same shutter speed because of a faulty mechanical construction.
If your shutter is not working at all it's probably because of a misaligned disk with shutter speeds (= violent treatment or a loosen screw).

Wimpler
22-Jun-2009, 01:10
These shutters are beautiful things. Since they are simple to repair, it is definately worth it. Especially because it will be extremely expensive to mount into a new shutter, if at all possible. The old shutters were not standardized at all. Stick to this one!

While not easy to get them to run precise, when cleaned they will definately run acceptible consistent, which is good enough for most uses.

The main parts that need to be cleaned are the shutter selector speed, and the two pistons. On some shutters these can be removed and cleaned without actually opening the shutter. On others, the cover needs to be taken off but no internal parts need to be disturbed.

If you wish, I can go take a look at a shutter I may have lying around and give you more precise information.

GPS
22-Jun-2009, 01:57
The slightest mutual misalignment of the two cylinders (cleaned or not) used to delay the shutter action (the cylinders on the right if you face the lens) can cause huge difference in the shutter timing. The misalignment can happen inadvertently just touching the bottom cylinder in the "wrong" way. There is no way to know when the misalignment happens...

GPS
22-Jun-2009, 02:23
Just to add - once I measured a Unicum shutter with my Calumet shutter tester. The shutter was entirely cleaned, working mechanically correctly. The times were - a joke. Inconsistent and changeable with the "wrong" touch on the cylinders. By the way, there is no way to keep their correct alignment firm, the construction is faulty.

Wimpler
22-Jun-2009, 04:34
In regular conditions, if you cock the shutter just before the exposure, there won't be a lot of forces working on the cylinders. Ofcourse, a lot more care needs to be taken then when compared to modern shutters. However, when properly used, I would be very surprised if one could not use them with a maximum error of a stop.

However, I've never done measurements over a long time or in non-ideal conditions. Lets just say that these shutters are an improvement over using lens caps or hats as a shutter ;)

CCHarrison
22-Jun-2009, 04:35
You have a B&L Iris Diaphram Shutter patented in 1888. You can see the repair for this shutter here from Restoring Classic & Collectible Cameras By Thomas Tomosy:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0cQzRxVlgeYC&pg=PA30&dq=bausch+lomb+shutter

Here is the patent on this shutter http://www.google.com/patents?id=VGNjAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent:382858&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA1,M1


Dan

GPS
22-Jun-2009, 05:15
In regular conditions, if you cock the shutter just before the exposure, there won't be a lot of forces working on the cylinders. Ofcourse, a lot more care needs to be taken then when compared to modern shutters. However, when properly used, I would be very surprised if one could not use them with a maximum error of a stop.

However, I've never done measurements over a long time or in non-ideal conditions. Lets just say that these shutters are an improvement over using lens caps or hats as a shutter ;)

Of course you cock the shutter before releasing, no doubt about it. That's not the problem. The problem is the fact that a lateral (radial) touch on the cylinder in question makes it slightly turn around its pivot and changes its alignment with the corresponding cylinder. This touching can happen when you open the camera, when you clean the lens, when you change the aperture, when you remove the lens with its board and on many other occasions...
You can have many stops difference of the exposure time without even noticing you touched the thing! Yes, you can even stop the shutter functioning just by a slight, invisible misalignment of the cylinders! And that is only one problem of this construction, there are more of them. The manufacturer noticed the problems too and tried to make up for them but the construction didn't allow it with full success. When you understand the construction you can see why...

These shutters, although an improvement over a lens cap were unreliable already in their time and left as such as soon as a new construction (spring shutters) were available...

Petzval Paul
22-Jun-2009, 06:47
Wow, thanks for all of the information! For me, the shutter times are a moot point since I really only need a "lens cap" shutter with the 10 second exposures common in collodion photography. I do think I will try and keep this one and see if I can't get it repaired. Thanks again!

goamules
22-Jun-2009, 07:04
Actually, there were already spring shutters before these pneumatic ones. And these shutters, like my Prosch Duplex, were supposedly pretty accurate. I haven't tested it, but there is some testing data somewhere on the web I found once, and they weren't bad.

Like the above says, some of the pneumatic ones weren't very reliable. At least the ones I've had aren't.

goamules
22-Jun-2009, 07:06
Let me explain that the Prosch shutter did have a pneumatic tube, but it was not for timing anything, just to actuate the spring-powered shutter leaves. The spring is on the right, the tension is adjusted by moving it between the notches in the horizontal fixture.

Petzval Paul
22-Jun-2009, 07:14
That's one wild looking shutter. Always thought they were terribly bizarre. One more thing... if my lens is mounted in this old "iris diaphragm shutter" is that any indication of when it could have been manufactured?

GPS
22-Jun-2009, 07:27
Actually, there were already spring shutters before these pneumatic ones. And these shutters, like my Prosch Duplex, were supposedly pretty accurate. I haven't tested it, but there is some testing data somewhere on the web I found once, and they weren't bad.

Like the above says, some of the pneumatic ones weren't very reliable. At least the ones I've had aren't.

Yes, there were spring shutters before the pneumatic ones but they were not good for slower times. The first "spring" shutter was probably the rubber band Lancaster shutter, others followed with metal springs. These were basically missing any delaying device so the times were rather quick and the slower times were not good enough.
The pneumatic shutter came with a delaying device (pneumatic) but had the opposite problem - the shorter times were out of their reach as they did not have the necessary time latitude. After that came the "modern" spring shutters with mechanical delaying device that offered the necessary time latitude and the precision.

GPS
22-Jun-2009, 07:33
That's one wild looking shutter. Always thought they were terribly bizarre. One more thing... if my lens is mounted in this old "iris diaphragm shutter" is that any indication of when it could have been manufactured?

From 1890 something to 1900 something for the majority of them.

BrianShaw
22-Jun-2009, 07:35
And these shutters, like my Prosch Duplex, were supposedly pretty accurate.

I've had good luck with the single pneumatic tube'd, single speed, B&L shutter... but after seeing that shutter I want to retrofit it with an adjustable spring!

goamules
22-Jun-2009, 07:49
You're right GPS, when I think about it; both had their weaknesses, the early spring shutters couldn't do a slow time, the pneumatics couldn't do fast.

Yeah Paul and Brian, the Prosch had all the gismos on the outside. Kind of a Rube Goldberg affair, but it really works well. Here is another pic of the Duplex, with some of the "controls", the knobs you use to move levers and such. It took me a few minutes to figure it out.

I'd keep the big shutter Paul, if it's got a working iris anyway. Think of it as a pretty mount/iris! (I need a lens to fit my Prosch too).

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 01:55
You have a B&L Iris Diaphram Shutter patented in 1888. You can see the repair for this shutter here from Restoring Classic & Collectible Cameras By Thomas Tomosy:

http://books.google.com/books?id=0cQzRxVlgeYC&pg=PA30&dq=bausch+lomb+shutter

Here is the patent on this shutter http://www.google.com/patents?id=VGNjAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent:382858&as_drrb_ap=q&as_minm_ap=0&as_miny_ap=&as_maxm_ap=0&as_maxy_ap=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPA1,M1


Dan

Sorry to tell you, Dan, but the patent in your citation is not a patent for the shutter of the OP. The patent you link to has no timing device, it's just a instantaneous or time shutter (time here is not a timing shutter, it's just the T time shutter).
Unicum shutters and their different name's cousins have a true timing device (the pneumatic one) and they were patented on Jan.6 1891.
The OP's shutter is missing a name plate on its bottom (you can still see the 2 holes from the appropriate screws holding it).
The Unicum line of shutters had, as I said, a faulty construction that could not allow them any precision in the shorter time exposures, beside other problems. It is interesting to see that even later some other brands of shutters were produced with times indications that were not realistic - the wish thinking was marketed in all impunity...

CCHarrison
23-Jun-2009, 04:42
Sorry to tell you, GPS, that patent IS the basis for the Iris Diaphraghm shutter from B&L. The basis of the patent is that the iris performs both the function of the aperture and the shutter - the patent is not about the timing of the shutter... The OP has the Improved Model (also called 1890 model ) B&L Iris shutter.

From the American Amateur Photographer, page 405 Volume II, 1890 which describes the improved Model the OP has;

"Mr. F. C. Beach exhibited a model of the latest Bausch & Lomb Diaphragm Shutter, explaining the improvements, such as making the leaves of the shutter of hard rubber, which were lighter than metal, were not affected by dampness, and always remained black. There was also a new arrangement of the pneumatic retarding tube or " dash," which is placed upright on the side of the lens tube instead of over it horizontally. This made the shutter more compact. The lever used in regulating the size of the diaphragm is now made in the form of a black disk placed behind the actuating spring barrel. The size of the diaphragms are printed on its face, so that it is an easy matter by rotating it to fix the aperture wanted. Another disk on the front of the spring barrel regulates the speed of the shutter from l-100th of a second up to a 3-second exposure. Then the lever for changing the shutter from a time to instantaneous movement is fixed in plain sight on the front of the shutter, and is easily got at. The pneumatic release pump is also made larger aud stronger. The three essential points, viz., device for quickly changing the diaphragm opening, for easily regulating the speed, and for changing the shutter from time to instantaneous movements, all seem to be arranged very compactly and perfectly. In addition to all this the shutter is very beautifully and accurately made. In reply to questions he stated that he had not verified the speed as stated on the dial, but suggested as a good test that a trotting horse be photographed at right angles to the lens, about fifty feet distant. If his feet came out distinct it would be proof that the shutter was pretty fast. This would teet the speed of any shutter. Another advantage of the shutter in question was that there is no jar. Its movements are equalized."

eddie
23-Jun-2009, 05:11
i have an old unicum shutter and a B&L one like the OP posted. my shutter repair guy says they do not repair well at at. FWIW my two shutters are working almost perfect. the times are pretty close to right on....go figure. the unicum has a pat date of 1891. even the 1,2 and 3 sec times are very close on the volute. see my shutter times on the board. .


eddie

CCHarrison
23-Jun-2009, 05:19
Attached to this post, you will find the original model Iris Diaphragm ( 1888-1889 ).

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 05:57
Sorry to tell you, GPS, that patent IS the basis for the Iris Diaphraghm shutter from B&L. The basis of the patent is that the iris performs both the function of the aperture and the shutter - the patent is not about the timing of the shutter... The OP has the Improved Model (also called 1890 model ) B&L Iris shutter.

From the American Amateur Photographer, page 405 Volume II, 1890 which describes the improved Model the OP has;
...
"

Thank you, Dan, for confirming what I already said - the patent you cited was not the patent for the OP's shutter. Now you call it "the basis for the Iris Diaphragm shutter from B&L". I understood well what the basis of your cited patent is - therefore I understand that it is not the patent for the OP's shutter. As you say, "the OP has the Improved Model".
Unicum shutter was patented Jan.6 1891

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 06:04
i have an old unicum shutter and a B&L one like the OP posted. my shutter repair guy says they do not repair well at at. FWIW my two shutters are working almost perfect. the times are pretty close to right on....go figure. the unicum has a pat date of 1891. even the 1,2 and 3 sec times are very close on the volute. see my shutter times on the board. .


eddie

The Volute shutter is later than the Unicum shutter which has the longest timing of 1 s only. The problem with these pneumatic shutters are not on the longest time exposures but just the opposite - the shortest exposure timings have problems.

CCHarrison
23-Jun-2009, 06:05
GPS - you continue to "understand" what you would like to understand.

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 06:09
Dan, you continue not to understand what you don't want to understand.

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 06:10
The timing pneumatic device was a subject of a new patent for this kind of shutters. For a good reason...

eddie
23-Jun-2009, 06:16
The Volute shutter is later than the Unicum shutter which has the longest timing of 1 s only. The problem with these pneumatic shutters are not on the longest time exposures but just the opposite - the shortest exposure timings have problems.

yes i realize this. i was just happy to have two of these oldies working better than most of my more "modern" shutters as you can see the volute is only far off at the highest speed....slightly off at the second fastest. the other is close to the same.

these findings are basically the same for the "modern" ones i have....you usually can not have both. you get either good slow OR good fast.

anyhow. i am just happy they are consistent and i know their speeds. they serve me well.

GPS
23-Jun-2009, 06:38
Indeed Eddie, happy and lucky! I wanted to build a camera entirely of brass with a Unicum shutter, just for some snapshots but never did, due to the timing problems of the shutter. Pity, were they as reliable as they are cute they would be a great piece of a shutter!

Jim Galli
23-Jun-2009, 07:26
I can see the broken piece in your photo. It's a common breakage with these. If you machine a new piece, clean and rebuild it should work fine again. Note that the "rubber" blades only block blue light. If you look through the blades at the sun you'll see a nice 'red' sun. So using these with panchro film one should note that and only have the dark slide and lens cap removed just long enough for the exposure.

Petzval Paul
23-Jun-2009, 12:26
Thanks Jim! I was wondering about that piece. I'll see about fixing it, otherwise it'll stay as is unless and until I find a replacement. Anyway, the blue light is what's important to me with the collodion so it should not affect much if the "red" light shines through.

eddie
23-Jun-2009, 14:58
Note that the "rubber" blades only block blue light. If you look through the blades at the sun you'll see a nice 'red' sun. So using these with panchro film one should note that and only have the dark slide and lens cap removed just long enough for the exposure.

funny, i figured that out when i sent to test he shutter with my shutter tester....the tester did not work....read full light all the time....i could not figure it out. thought my tester was bad. then it came to me. i have been using it for collodion so it was working fine. glad i never shot film with it. i would have been really stumped.

eddie

John Flinn
12-Nov-2016, 00:38
i have an old unicum shutter and a B&L one like the OP posted. my shutter repair guy says they do not repair well at at. FWIW my two shutters are working almost perfect. the times are pretty close to right on....go figure. the unicum has a pat date of 1891. even the 1,2 and 3 sec times are very close on the volute. see my shutter times on the board. .


eddie

I have bought several Unicum Shutters and on occasion they come with a frozen air piston assembly either for the shutter release or the air bulb mechanism. The best way to unfreeze them if they are corroded is to soak the detached piston assembly overnight in a mixture of 50% acetone and 50% auto transmission fluid. I did this on a piston assembly that the camera technician was not able to free. This is a trick known by some auto mechanics to free corroded parts. These are really beautiful shutters and should be restored and enjoyed. For a complete CLA there are several shops that do this service.

premortho
10-Jan-2017, 16:24
Of course you cock the shutter before releasing, no doubt about it. That's not the problem. The problem is the fact that a lateral (radial) touch on the cylinder in question makes it slightly turn around its pivot and changes its alignment with the corresponding cylinder. This touching can happen when you open the camera, when you clean the lens, when you change the aperture, when you remove the lens with its board and on many other occasions...
You can have many stops difference of the exposure time without even noticing you touched the thing! Yes, you can even stop the shutter functioning just by a slight, invisible misalignment of the cylinders! And that is only one problem of this construction, there are more of them. The manufacturer noticed the problems too and tried to make up for them but the construction didn't allow it with full success. When you understand the construction you can see why...

These shutters, although an improvement over a lens cap were unreliable already in their time and left as such as soon as a new construction (spring shutters) were available...Interesting. I must have been mighty lucky as I've had four different Unicum shutters, and they all timed close enough to make good pictures. The beauty of a pnuematically controlled shutter is that it operates on laws of physics, not laws of metalurgy. But I generally operate on the slower end of the scale. For high speed work, a clockwork shutter is indicated.