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acena
4-Jun-2009, 03:57
I got interested in LF after taking an environmental portrait class with Herb Aschermann last summer. I enjoyed Herb's class so much that I rushed out and purchased a used Deardorff 5x7 from eBay. I thought I would have used it hundreds of times by now.

Unfortunately, I got roped into sending Ken Hough my Deardorff 5x7 camera and two lenses, which he has had since September of 2008. He also has my money. Not only the deposit to begin the work, but the balance since he wrote me at the beginning of April indicating the work is done. Now he will not reply to my e-mails nor my phone calls. The last time I spoke to him in mid April he said my camera was shipping that day. Well it's June.

I sent him another e-mail last night indicating if he does not ship my gear this week and supply me with a tracking number I am gong t contact the Better Business Bureau and the local authorities. He can send my gear back with the work incomplete along with my money or send me my refurbished camera and keep the money.

Ugggh. I hate dishonest people. How in the world do they stay in business? Oh because there's always another sucker like myself.

clay harmon
4-Jun-2009, 04:36
No one should have to go through a thorough 'Houghing', but somehow, the guy stays in business. Persistence, a lot of time, and some very direct language will be required to get your camera back. Search the old photo.net archives for many threads about this particular vendor. At least you will gain some cold comfort in knowing that this is business as usual with him, and has been for many years.

eddie
4-Jun-2009, 04:36
oh! i feel your pain. i hope you get it back soon. this is why i choose not to send out my main camera for repairs or the like because i find most repair people too busy to complete the work ina timely fashion or when they say they will do it. seems to be the patter.

i have two friends waiting on repairs now that are 6-9 months over due from the days promised (a different service) and this is after the estimated repair time....so they have been waiting over 1 year each.

always keep a camera to use and plan for a repair time to be 2 times as long as they say....if you are lucky you will get it back at your estimated time....never theirs!

i am lucky. i got a local guy who does beautiful work to do my stuff.....

good luck. oh! if you used the USPO you may threaten him with the federal issue if you sent $$$ in the mail.....may help, may not.

if you can not wait:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=45927&highlight=deardorff

i have seen this camera, it is nice....

eddie

lee nadel
4-Jun-2009, 05:39
hi i had finally had enough after 1/1/2 years called the sheriff in indiana and i got the camera he served him with a complaint also using the internet for bussiness brings it to a local issue sorry for your problem

acena
4-Jun-2009, 05:56
Thank! If he does not ship by the end of this week, the local sheriff and the Better Business Bureau are my next stops. I should've bit the bullet and purchased a new wooden camera. Not worth the perceived savings.

I shoot high school and college sports with a digital camera. LF was my way to slow down, spend more time pre-visualizing and to kick start the creative juices.

Paid with Paypal.

arthur berger
4-Jun-2009, 06:06
Hi Alex: I went through a similar experience with Ken a number of years ago; however I waited and did get back my beater 8x10 DD looking like new. I have been using it happily for years now and people always comment on what a beautiful camera it is. I remember it taking 2 years and I was at my wits end thinking of what recourse I should take. Just keep bugging him and be patient, you will get it back.
Arthur

Brian Ellis
4-Jun-2009, 07:06
I got interested in LF after taking an environmental portrait class with Herb Aschermann last summer. I enjoyed Herb's class so much that I rushed out and purchased a used Deardorff 5x7 from eBay. I thought I would have used it hundreds of times by now.

Unfortunately, I got roped into sending Ken Hough my Deardorff 5x7 camera and two lenses, which he has had since September of 2008. He also has my money. Not only the deposit to begin the work, but the balance since he wrote me at the beginning of April indicating the work is done. Now he will not reply to my e-mails nor my phone calls. The last time I spoke to him in mid April he said my camera was shipping that day. Well it's June.

I sent him another e-mail last night indicating if he does not ship my gear this week and supply me with a tracking number I am gong t contact the Better Business Bureau and the local authorities. He can send my gear back with the work incomplete along with my money or send me my refurbished camera and keep the money.

Ugggh. I hate dishonest people. How in the world do they stay in business? Oh because there's always another sucker like myself.

Well Ken Hough has helped you achieve one of your LF objectives - he's certainly slowed you down.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
4-Jun-2009, 07:41
Not that this helps you now, but Richard Ritter does excellent repairs on wooden cameras, including Deardorff, and is a viable and reliable alternative to Ken Hough.

goamules
4-Jun-2009, 07:57
It sounds like a one man show or extremely desirable custom work. I once ordered a custom item (not a camera) from a famous shop, who promised 2 years to delivery. It took 5. Nothing would get it faster, and I just waited. Loved the item eventually, but I'd gotten a lot older.

This doesn't have to be the business model. If you have more work than you can do, you do what Flutot's shutter repair does: Put the customer on a waiting list, and only receive the item when you are ready for it. When I contacted them it worked fine. I got an email a couple months later saying, "send it." I did - it was fixed and returned in a week or so..... Some craftsmen don't like to change business practices, but they should.

Kevin Crisp
4-Jun-2009, 08:55
These threads generally bring out the Ken Hough apologists. When you take money up front, tell someone the camera is done, take more money, tell them you are shipping it and really don't, etc. etc., it isn't a bad business plan, a one man shop issue, a quirky personality, a gifted craftsman with time management problems, etc.

If the work had been done he'd ship it to get you off his back. Duh. The word has five letters and starts with "f" and there is no excuse for it.

When you know you have cameras backed up for years and you still tell the new customer (whose "deposit" you very much desire) that you can get it done by a certain date this is not "a business practice." It doesn't matter that he has a nifty website and can chew the DD fat on the phone -- wake up. Don't believe me?

Here is a current problem, just the latest of what he has been doing for years and years, long after the excuses that some earlier accepted. (Humidity is variable in the shop, asthma acting up, mother ill, mother passed away, my internet server is down/having problems, etc.) NINE YEARS AGO I was in the middle of my experience with him: Promised to get it done in advance of a trip on a certain date, didn't - without explanation or communication, asked for more money, said it was done, asked for more money, said he'd ship, but didn't ship, ignored repeated contact after the supposed shipment date until legal action threatened, sent camera with numerous dings in the just refinished bed and several promised repair items not done despite request for payment, camera badly damaged in shipment due to incredibly bad packing, KH claiming $300+ from the USPS to fix the damage that resulted solely from his bad packing (now there is value added), camera back for repair, finally returned with an obvious repair to the damaged area.

There may be someone who got something back done well within approximately the time promised. And yes, he can do very good work. But given the pervasive nature of what he has done for more than a decade, why use him? Mr. Ritter doesn't do this to people.

Bill_1856
4-Jun-2009, 11:14
I've been told by a LF user who lived near him, that Ken Hough is a very sick man with severe asthma. That does not excuse his actions regarding his customers, but I understand that he barely makes it from day to day.
This is not an apology for his behaviour, but I thought the information should be added.

bvstaples
4-Jun-2009, 11:29
The word has five letters and starts with "f" and there is no excuse for it.


I don't know this word...focus, fixed??? If it's the word I'm thinking of it has six letters.

Sorry in advance for being a smart asss.

Kevin Crisp
4-Jun-2009, 11:53
He seemed very nice in my conversations with him, and if he is ill I am genuinely sorry to hear it. If this is the case: (1) Refund the money and send the cameras back that you can't get to; (2) Stop taking new work that you know you can't handle and finish off what you can get done, then take on new work at whatever pace is appropriate so that your estimates of completion dates are not years off; (3) Teach somebody to work with you so that demand can be met and you don't have to sand and spray lacquer when you've got asthma.

In my case, I found the negative Internet comments on him just days after I had spoken with him by phone and shipped the camera off. (1999-2000) I really, really hoped he had turned the corner as some suggested. As bad as my experience was, it was nothing compared to the stories I heard from people who contacted me after I publicly complained.

Bosaiya
4-Jun-2009, 13:58
It sounds like a one man show or extremely desirable custom work. I once ordered a custom item (not a camera) from a famous shop, who promised 2 years to delivery. It took 5. Nothing would get it faster, and I just waited. Loved the item eventually, but I'd gotten a lot older.

This has been my experience on ordering custom-made items as well. Must be nice to be able to run things that way, I guess.

acena
6-Jun-2009, 04:41
Ken finally contacted me and gave me a tracking number. No way to tell from the number if it is enroute to me or just a package going to who knows where. His latest excuse is his wife has stage 4 ovarian cancer and has been away in Chaicago for treatment for the last 1.5 weeks. Pardon my lack of empathy but I've been told way too many stories and lies to believe anything other than having my refurbished camera in my hot little hands. Not withstanding that, my un-repaired camera and lenses along with my money.

No other way to describe his business practices as nothing more than a Ponzi scheme. It's just like Bernie Madoff albeit not in the scale of billions of dollars though I think Ken would love to run a Ponzi deal that would put Bernie to shame

eddie
6-Jun-2009, 04:54
let us know if/when it shows.

so let me get this right....not refurbished yet!?!!?

Kevin Klazek
6-Jun-2009, 07:01
I have been dealing with Ken for a few years, but strictly for parts. All of my dealings have been positive...money sent...parts shipped. I have spoken to him a few times on the phone and he was great. E-mails were answered on technical questions in a timely manner. Sorry to hear about the bad experiences. I guess I have been lucky in my dealings with him.

Kevin

RichardRitter
6-Jun-2009, 08:37
Alex
What was the problem with the camera?
I work on then all the time. Currently I do weight lifting with two 11 x 14 Deardorffs I am working on.

Brian Ellis
6-Jun-2009, 10:01
I've been told by a LF user who lived near him, that Ken Hough is a very sick man with severe asthma. That does not excuse his actions regarding his customers, but I understand that he barely makes it from day to day.
This is not an apology for his behaviour, but I thought the information should be added.

Maybe he has red hair, maybe he drives a Chevrolet, maybe he likes his eggs over easy. I don't see that asthma is any more relevant than those things when it comes to telling someone repairs are done and the camera is ready to be shipped, asking for and getting more money, then not shipping for months and month, years in some cases.

Archphoto
6-Jun-2009, 12:07
Once you start telling lies, that is the camera is ready and is not, so the end result is shipment after month or even years, you have lost it.
Waiting for parts can take a very long time at times esp with older equipment, but tell your customers about it !
This is a bad attitude towards your customers and is not acceptable.

I have been into repairs for about 30 years in Holland and never had these problems, even in the very busy times just before the hollidays.
Nowadays I just do things for my self only.
I got one project waiting for me for a couple of years to be done, but that is for myself.

Peter

acena
7-Jun-2009, 02:44
Alex
What was the problem with the camera?
I work on then all the time. Currently I do weight lifting with two 11 x 14 Deardorffs I am working on.

I bought it used and was a bit beat up so I wanted it refurbished into like new condition, I wanted a new 4x5 back, a lens board, etc.

RichardRitter
7-Jun-2009, 05:29
Refinishing the camera 3 to 6 months depends on work load.
lens boards in stock,
4 x 5 back to 5 x 7, 3 months.
No deposit required.

John Kasaian
7-Jun-2009, 07:49
I have been dealing with Ken for a few years, but strictly for parts. All of my dealings have been positive...money sent...parts shipped. I have spoken to him a few times on the phone and he was great. E-mails were answered on technical questions in a timely manner. Sorry to hear about the bad experiences. I guess I have been lucky in my dealings with him.

Kevin

My experience with Ken Hough is the same as Kevin's. I bought some parts from Ken and with his help over the phone was able to install them myself. With another camera (5x7 Speed Graphic) I sent it to Richard Ritter and it was returned in a timely manner and repaired to my satisfaction.
Thanks, Mr. Ritter!
What I've learned from these experiences (and from reviews posted here) is that if the problem can be solved by purchasing a few 'dorff parts and some coaching over the phone, Ken Hough is a very viable option, (especially if you like working on your own 'dorff) but if my camera has to go to the "hospital" for repairs I'll send it to Richard Ritter or perhaps another fine craftsman closer to my home since shipping to Vermont from California adds considerably to the cost (although I haven't found anyone yet whose work compares to that of Mr. Ritter!)

Keep on 'dorffing! :)

sanchi heuser
7-Jun-2009, 08:44
@ Alex,

I hope you get your camera back soon and you will have more luck
in the future.


@ Eddie,

these long waiting times seem quite astonishing to me.
When I need a camera repair with my Sinar, I send to the Sinar Service in Germany,
I only wait some days. And I pay after I get my camera back.
What they are able to do another company should also be able to,
this is my opinion.
Maybe a refurbishment of an antique camera will need more time,
but a whole year?






i have two friends waiting on repairs now that are 6-9 months over due from the days promised (a different service) and this is after the estimated repair time....so they have been waiting over 1 year each.



eddie

acena
7-Jun-2009, 10:02
I'll try Mr Ritter next time since my plan is to get comfortable with the 4x5 gormat then go up to the 8x10 someday. I once ordered a custom knife from Ernie Emerson. He told me it was a $25 deposit to get in the queue, but I do not have to pay the balance until he is ready to ship and that day would not arrive for another 2-3 years because whenever a military contract arrived I would be pushed to the back of the line. He was very upfront about everything. I forgot all about it, but that day did arrive so I sent him the balance and received my knife via FedEx in a day or so. That's the way to do business. Under promise and over deliver. Not the Kent Hough way which so far has been over promise and never deliver with respect to my personal experience.

Michael Jones
8-Jun-2009, 12:23
these long waiting times seem quite astonishing to me.
When I need a camera repair with my Sinar, I send to the Sinar Service in Germany,
I only wait some days. And I pay after I get my camera back.
What they are able to do another company should also be able to,
this is my opinion.
Maybe a refurbishment of an antique camera will need more time,
but a whole year?

That' s the difference between a one person shop and a factory operation.

Most large format facilities/vendors are "one person" operations with that one person (or if lucky, a significant other) manning all aspects of busines operations.

Refinishing a camera takes about 40 hours of labor. That is not counting waiting for other suppliers to furnish parts, such as bellows, or waiting for the finishes to dry between coats. The 40 hours gets spread over a long period of time.

If your work load is high, the waiting time to get in line for those 40 hours can be extensive. I've had camera parts and lenses in line for months and be gone most of a year. On the other hand, I've sent lenses to Schneider and they were back almost in the return mail.

Mike

acena
8-Jun-2009, 14:36
I have had custom refinishing/refurbishing jobs before from other master craftsman on non-camera equipment. They have all under-promised and over-delivered. I don't mind waiting. I just want the truth. If it is going to be a year, then let me know,

What got me all heated up was being told, it will be done next, month, then it was next month again and again. When he asked for his final payment on April 9th, he said he was done.

As an update: I DID get my camera back. From a visual point of view, it looks great. The lensboards look fabulous. If he told me from the beginning, it was going to be close to a year, I would be a happy customer. If he had shipped my stuff when he said he was going to ship as opposed to two months later and only after the threat of legal and criminal action, I would be a happy customer.

He does very nice work, but I cannot do business with him again. It's too aggravating.
Alex

Peter Spangenberg
8-Jun-2009, 21:01
I've had three transactions with Ken, and through research and advice from others, I was aware of his timeliness issues before I decided to go ahead. Two of the transactions were timely, and the third was delayed. Here are three observations for anyone who thinks they might want to consider using Ken to repair, refinish or restore their Deardorff.

1) There are certain things for which Ken may be the only and/or the best solution. I would say if you need parts, want a factory color/finish, Deardorff decals, information or advice on how to fix something yourself or care for your camera, or a restoration to make the camera as it was when it left the factory the first time, he's the guy. My 8x10 had a bed crack that was getting worse, and Ken advised me he was still in contact with the foreman from the Deardorff woodshop and could have a new bed made for my camera (vintage mid 1940's). The bed he provided was spectacular, and all extensions work smoothly. I also needed some parts from him, and he had them in stock.

2) Ken seems to do better with smaller jobs. This may seem obvious, but I bought a reducing board (6x6 to Linhof) and he built it for me in a matter of weeks and provided hardware that was nearly identical to the original. Also, I had Ken modify a sliding front panel for a V5 so that it would take Linhof boards, and he did the work on time and the modifications looked like the factory did them. For the sliding panel, I didn't need it refinished as I was refinishing the entire camera myself, and I wanted everything to match. When I had the 8x10 bed done, I disassembled the rest of the camera, stripped and prepped all of the wood myself and sent it off to him so the entire camera would have a factory finish that matched in color, etc. I thought by doing all of the unpleasant work myself, the job would be faster, and it probably was (though it took 2-3 months longer than I had hoped). Again, my experience is that he is timely on less complicated jobs, but seems to get backed up on the larger jobs.

3) Don't use Ken if you are in a hurry. I had a back up 5x7 I used while he was conducting his repairs to the 8x10 so I wasn't shut down. If that was my only camera, I would have been quite frustrated.

I accept Ken for his shortcomings and don't expect delivery when he promises because I value his knowledge, his access to parts, and the fact that he is the only link left to the factory that produced these fine cameras. I realize that this is a seriously flawed business model, but I appreciate the wealth of information he has provided me, and, when I use my 8x10 now (a couple of years after he finally got it back to me) 6-8 months to give it another 50 years of life on top of the 60+ it had already seen doesn't seem so bad (I have to admit I was quite irritated by the delays-but the irritation is gone....dimmed by the beauty of his work and the fact that I knew what I was getting into).

Ken's not for everyone, but I hope my experiences will provide something to think about if you are considering using Ken for a repair, a refinish, or a restoration.

sanchi heuser
11-Jun-2009, 04:38
That' s the difference between a one person shop and a factory operation.

Most large format facilities/vendors are "one person" operations with that one person (or if lucky, a significant other) manning all aspects of busines operations.

Refinishing a camera takes about 40 hours of labor. That is not counting waiting for other suppliers to furnish parts, such as bellows, or waiting for the finishes to dry between coats. The 40 hours gets spread over a long period of time.

If your work load is high, the waiting time to get in line for those 40 hours can be extensive. I've had camera parts and lenses in line for months and be gone most of a year. On the other hand, I've sent lenses to Schneider and they were back almost in the return mail.

Mike


O.K. , I didn't knew how that refurbishment business works.
Now you've told me I understand more.

sanchi