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View Full Version : which kit for upgrading to 8X10 OR field camera



Thalmees
29-May-2009, 07:12
Hi all
Appreciating any contribution in this dilemma.
I have a F2 Sinar 4X5 and would like to upgrade to 8X10 for landscape photography& contact printing(one of my lenses can cover 8X10 format). I was about to buy a new field camera but changed my mind due to stability and precision I'll miss with field camera compared to the upgraded Sinar F2. Concerning weight(practicality in the field) and availability only(Regardless price), I faced with different choices:
1- Used Sinar 8X10 P2/P conversion kit(need I think BEARER P2). Can be found on e-bay.
2- Used Sinar 8X10 F2 rear standard. Rarely found on e-bay.
3- Used Sinar 8X10 P camera complete. Can be found on e-bay.
4- Used Sinar 8X10 F2 camera complete. Rarely found on e-bay.
5- Going back to Field camera(NEW) like Shen-Hao or Tachihara cameras.
I found the prices of these choices to be about the same(specially the easily available items).
My question is: Which choice you'll go with ?
Another question(sorry being long): how can Sinar 8X10 P2/P conversion kit be fitted on Sinar 4X5 F2 without BEARER P2 ?
Thanks again for help.

Pete Roody
29-May-2009, 07:25
For landscapes, a field camera would be better than a Sinar monorail. However, the value of used Sinar 8x10's has dropped so I think you could source one for less than a new Shen-Hao or Tachi. A used Deardorff would also be a good choice since prices have dropped on these cameras also.

Mark Woods
29-May-2009, 09:06
I have a Sinar P in all its configurations. I bought a Deardorff for 8x10. It's a lot lighter and has plenty of movement for everything I've done so far. If I know I'll need more, I get the Sinar out in either 5x7 or 4x5. I have an adapter for the Sinar lens boards to work on the Dorff. Most of my good Sinar lenses are on DB boards so not adaptable.

Thalmees
30-May-2009, 05:47
hi Pete,
thanks too much.
so you are favoring field camera for the task.
There are two problems; on for me & the other for the field cameras.
The one related to me is; that I'll not use the camera for landscape 100%. Actually it'll be roughly 75% landscape and 25% for other types of photography(indoor). So I still in need to freedom of movements that provided by Sinar camera.
the problem with field cameras(according to what I've read) is that those cameras can not retain the position of standards movements as proper.
These two points what made my decision little difficult.

For landscapes, a field camera would be better than a Sinar monorail. However, the value of used Sinar 8x10's has dropped so I think you could source one for less than a new Shen-Hao or Tachi. A used Deardorff would also be a good choice since prices have dropped on these cameras also.
True.
Thank again Pete
.

Frank Petronio
30-May-2009, 12:47
I think buying a complete, used, Sinar 8x10 makes the most sense because you can supplement it with parts from your current 4x5 set. Buying complete cameras is usually a better value, and you can always resell any unwanted left over parts once you get your system set-up. Robert Fisher has a good deal on a Sinar 8x10P right here today.

If you are able to manage the extra weight and bulk you'll have a much more solid and versatile system than any wooden camera, and probably for a lot less money.

It's hard to fly with an 8x10 without baggage overages unless you have an ultralight system. And I wouldn't try backpacking with an 8x10. But other than that, why do you really need a lighter camera that compromises movements and stability?

Daniel Unkefer
30-May-2009, 15:18
I'd buy a P Conversion kit, then you'll have an 8x10 SINAR Combination. You can use the other F2 parts to further soup-up the camera (compendium shade etc) and you can sell any parts you find you can't use.

I've always been glad I had a solid monorail in the field, that is, once I have it deployed. Especially if there is alot of wind going on.

tim o'brien
31-May-2009, 00:07
I'd buy a P Conversion kit, then you'll have an 8x10 SINAR Combination. You can use the other F2 parts to further soup-up the camera (compendium shade etc) and you can sell any parts you find you can't use.

I've always been glad I had a solid monorail in the field, that is, once I have it deployed. Especially if there is alot of wind going on.

So it's your contention that a solid monorail is more stable than my Deardorff V-8 on top of a Bogen 3036? In the wind?

Why?

tim in san jose

Daniel Unkefer
31-May-2009, 06:52
Hi Tim,
I'm not against using Deardorffs, they are great cameras. I owned an old one for three years, but I ended up selling mine. Personally I much prefer the SINAR Norma out in the field, and yes, it is much sturdier than my particular Deardorff. It works better for me, for my uses, particularly the interchangability of the accessories. Of course the Deardorff is lighter, that was the tradeoff for me.

The OP already has an F2 Sinar, so buying a P Conversion (or a complete P) might even be less money than the Deardorff?

Stefan Lungu
31-May-2009, 10:50
I'm not an expert here, but I think getting a P rear bearer and a conversion kit will do. You will then have a C camera, F front and P back. I would guess it is the cheapest way for you to get the 8x10 you want. This combination will be a little lighter but also not as stable as a complete P.
Of course, lenses are a different story.

tim o'brien
31-May-2009, 12:31
Hi Tim,
I'm not against using Deardorffs, they are great cameras. I owned an old one for three years, but I ended up selling mine. Personally I much prefer the SINAR Norma out in the field, and yes, it is much sturdier than my particular Deardorff. It works better for me, for my uses, particularly the interchangability of the accessories. Of course the Deardorff is lighter, that was the tradeoff for me.

The OP already has an F2 Sinar, so buying a P Conversion (or a complete P) might even be less money than the Deardorff?

Not to argue whether he should buy one or the other... to me, it's a no brainer. I have used Sinars (a really long time ago) and know they are a nice system.

I was just wondering... I have a 1955 Deardorff and solid is the first adjective I would use for it. It appears to not have been abused in it's previous life so perhaps I am just the beneficiary of a really nice camera. I can't imagine any camera being any more stable than that sitting on the Bogen.

tim

Thalmees
4-Jun-2009, 15:08
Sorry being away for some time. Great forum. Thanks all.
Hi Mark.
Thanks for your input. Let me think loudly.
Field cameras may be always better for landscape photography than monorail cameras.
But for one like me(who already have a Sinar F2 & one lens that cover 8X10 format), it should come with certain conditions:
1- Lens board of the field camera should be compatible with Sinar so I can use my sinar lens. If not, one adaptor at least is needed. Owning an 8X10 Sinar(wither P, P2 or F2) will increase compatibility in this side and in every direction.
2- Weight: The weight of an 8X10 field camera can range between 4 Kg(Wooden) to 6.8 Kg(Metal). The weight of 8X10 Sinar P2 is 8.2 Kg. While the Weight of my 4X5 Sinar F2 is little heavier than 3.6 Kg(due to auto behind lens shutter and metering back).
The estimated weight of my F2 with 8X10 metering back and 8X10 standard bellows(Sinar C) should be around(or lighter than) 7.25 Kg. To sum it up; there is extra weight of 0.5 to 3.25 Kg above most field cameras. And the new 8X10 Sinar C is equivalent in weight to two 4X5 Sinar F2, a weight seriously should affect any photographer performance in the outdoor.
Now, why I find much more complainers from the field cameras club(due to stability, precision & range of movements) than those from the monorail cameras club(due to weight & volume) ?
3- Price: a used Sinar 8X10 P is cheaper than the lowest priced new field camera and usually much cheaper than most of the good quality used field cameras(specially the Deardorffs).

I have a Sinar P in all its configurations. I bought a Deardorff for 8x10. It's a lot lighter and has plenty of movement for everything I've done so far. If I know I'll need more, I get the Sinar out in either 5x7 or 4x5. I have an adapter for the Sinar lens boards to work on the Dorff. Most of my good Sinar lenses are on DB boards so not adaptable.
Thanks again Mark.
.

Archphoto
4-Jun-2009, 16:46
Now, why I find much more complainers from the field cameras club(due to stability, precision & range of movements) than those from the monorail cameras club(due to weight & volume) ?

Thanks again Mark.
.

The Sinar P2 is by design a very stable camera with geared movements.
Stable because the design was never restricted by weight issues as it was designed for the studio.
Geared movements are more presize than unlock-shift-lock movements.

Having said that I used the Sinar P2 8x10" and converted to 4x5" all the time in the field and loved it.
Shure it is heavy, use a trolley !

An other plus for the Sinar (P2) is that you have theoreticly unlimmed bellows extension just by adding more and more bellows and in between standards.
If you like very long that is 'cause.

Peter

Thalmees
14-Jul-2009, 07:46
Hi all

Pete Roody
Mark Woods
Frank Petronio
Daniel Unkefer
tim o'brien
Stefan Lungu
Archphoto
Archphoto

Thanks sooo much, appreciate the help
Wonderful forum wonderful people.

Ken Lee
14-Jul-2009, 09:27
The term "landscape" can have a variety of meanings. It's one thing to pull a camera out of the trunk of a car, and another take it on a trek up a mountain, or down into a ravine.

For "the field", I'd rather use an Arca Swiss Discovery or other lightweight monorail, than a field camera, unless the field camera provided full movements front and rear.

If you plan to trek a only a moderate distance, it's often gratifying to have a monorail camera at your disposal - where limitations on view camera movements - if any - come not from the camera, but from the covering power of the lens.

Brian Ellis
14-Jul-2009, 09:39
hi Pete,
thanks too much.
so you are favoring field camera for the task.
There are two problems; on for me & the other for the field cameras.
The one related to me is; that I'll not use the camera for landscape 100%. Actually it'll be roughly 75% landscape and 25% for other types of photography(indoor). So I still in need to freedom of movements that provided by Sinar camera.
the problem with field cameras(according to what I've read) is that those cameras can not retain the position of standards movements as proper.
These two points what made my decision little difficult.

True.
Thank again Pete
.

What kind of "indoor" photography are you planning to do? I've owned two Tachiharas, two Deardorffs, and various other field cameras. All were perfectly adequate for indoor photography, at least the kind I did which was interior architecture.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've read that "those cameras can not retain the position of standards movements as proper." Could you elaborate on this a little?

Bosaiya
14-Jul-2009, 11:54
I've owned, and sold, a Sinar F2 in 8x10". I'm no slouch but those cameras are very, very heavy. Portability did not seem to be a key factor in their design (as with the smaller versions, which I use and admire very much). How much stability do you need? Are you looking to shoot in heavy wind? If so it's probably going to do the trick, but remember to bring your mule along for the trek - be it ten miles or feet.

Mark Woods
14-Jul-2009, 13:07
You're welcome!

Thalmees
14-Jul-2009, 13:49
The term "landscape" can have a variety of meanings. It's one thing to pull a camera out of the trunk of a car, and another take it on a trek up a mountain, or down into a ravine.

For "the field", I'd rather use an Arca Swiss Discovery or other lightweight monorail, than a field camera, unless the field camera provided full movements front and rear.

If you plan to trek a only a moderate distance, it's often gratifying to have a monorail camera at your disposal - where limitations on view camera movements - if any - come not from the camera, but from the covering power of the lens.

Hi Ken Lee
Thanks for your input here. Yes, Arca Swiss Discovery is a very practical lightweight 4X5 monorail camera. But already Iím enjoying my Sinar F2. The very long treks are not suited enough to the nature of the lands around me, even if I have the time and muscles to go.
BTW, last two lines of your comment was very informative.
Thanks so much.

Thalmees
14-Jul-2009, 14:13
What kind of "indoor" photography are you planning to do? I've owned two Tachiharas, two Deardorffs, and various other field cameras. All were perfectly adequate for indoor photography, at least the kind I did which was interior architecture.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've read that "those cameras can not retain the position of standards movements as proper." Could you elaborate on this a little?

Hi Brian
Thanks for being in this discussion. Still life, compositions, interior of old buildings and table top are just examples. Iím totally devoted toward your opinion. Most subjects can be photographed by both(Field & View Cameras) equally according to the subject demand.
I was talking solely about my personal impression after critical readings here & there. I do not mean to irritate any field camera owner or expert at all. And that opinion could be affected too much by subjectivity.
One time I fallen in love with a beautiful Tachihara(dark red with silver knobs) for certain period of time, but did not continue to be engaged in a real relation(at least up to now). One genuine reason is the significantly higher price, of course.
I did not use field cameras, but tested my 4X5 Sinar F2 stability in the field several times, under extreme situations of wind, and could not imagine the situation with a woody light weight field cameras.
Thatís not every thing, the extra weight of monorails can severely limit our enthusiasm in many situations, but I think the photographer can manage(not every time) to keep outdoor kit as small as possible.
Thanks again.

bbauer
23-Sep-2009, 19:32
It's been a while since I've had one, but if I remember correctly, an 8x10 frame on a 4x5 rear standard doesn't allow much in the way of movements, and a 4x5 front standard pretty much requires you to rack it all the way up just to get it centered with the rear. 8x10 standards--both front and rear--are fairly scarce but they can be found with some patience.

there's also some type of F-series variant rear standard that has virtually no movements in exchange for being comparatively inexpensive.

And if you're going to put something together from individual components, be sure to get the right size bellows, since the metering and non-metering backs are sized differently.