Sad Day

[photosailor]

After over 40 years using Kodak negative films, I'm throwing in the towel! With so little Kodak sheet film available and on such a sporadic schedule, I can't operate on that basis anymore. I'll miss TriX and TMax 100, but life moves on. I start the new learning curve with Ilford today. Should I switch my medium format to Ilford, too?

[Jan Pedersen]

Where are you buying Kodak sheet film? i have not had any issues getting what i need unless in those formats that requires a special run.

[Gem Singer]

I came to the same conclusion ten years ago.

Switched to Ilford sheet film and medium format roll film, and have never regretted my decision.

Pyrocat-HD film developer and TF-4 fixer (from Photographer's Formulary), along with Ilford FP-4+ film, is a match made in heaven.

[venchka]

Glazer's? Badger? Freestyle? What's not to like?

[Bruce Watson]

Glazer's? Badger? Freestyle? What's not to like?

I agree. I've never had a problem finding Kodak films. TMY-2 is so readily available in 5x4 it's even in stock locally now. And there's no other film like it available from either Fuji or Harmon / Ilford. Moving to either of the competitors would be like taking a giant step backward to me.

[Robert Fisher]

Jeff at Badger just shipped 8 boxes of TMax 100 8x10 to me today. I have never had a problem with TMax.

[William McEwen]

I'm very happy with Tri-X. I've never had trouble getting 8x10, except for about a month in 2003 or so when Kodak changed from a U.S. factory to one in Canada.

I used Ilford for that period and the negs just didn't have much contrast.

David Donovan, a friend who shoots medium format, got mad at Kodak for a while, and tried to make Ilford films work. The work just didn't look as good. A few months ago he switched back to Tri-X and is happier than he ever was.

(However, Patricia Richards' prints from her 8x10 Ilford negs really SING.)

I'm not thrilled that Tri-X 8x10 is available only in 10-sheet boxes now, because it's a minor irritation when I'm loading. But it's a terrific film.

My two cents.

William

[photosailor]

I shop at Glaziers. Someone came in over the weekend and purchased all their 8x10 TriX (didn't want to bring it on the plane to Seattle). According to Glazier's, Kodak cuts 5x7 only twice a year, so they can't reorder as it sells but must anticipate their needs and stock up; if they miscalculate....no film for us to buy. Yes, they had Kodak 4x5 in stock, but I want to be able to use the same product in all formats and that doesn't seem possible with Kodak.

One nice thing about living in a metropolis is that one should be able to go to the camera store and purchase film. I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.

[Turner Reich]

Sounds like sour grapes, what happens when you get a grudge going with Ilford, will you switch to Adox? FYI Freestyle can shipped to Seattle quickly, why depend on Glazer's? Unless you are talking about a Seattle company called, "Glaziers" who are responsible for selecting, cutting, installing, replacing, and removing all types of glass.

[Robert Fisher]

"I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city."

Yeah, it is really difficult to pick up the phone and call Jeff, Jim at MW or B&H and have the film arrive a few days later at the front door.

[Gene McCluney]

I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.


Oh you people that have had convenient supplies because you live in a large city. I don't live in a large city, but I still shoot large format up to 11x14 and 7x17. I can get film overnight from anywhere in the USA, and have had to at times for my commercial work. This is they way it has been for me since the 1980's, and will become the way for almost everybody in the future. Come on, learn to adapt. Keep using the materials that work best for you. Find alternate sources. Once I had to phone 3 vendors to get one box of 4x5 Ektachrome EPP, but I needed it, and I got it.

[benrains]

This discussion thread is fundamentally stupid.

[Eric Woodbury]

We have a couple major LF stores in town, but more than once, I've gone to get something and not found it, only to be told that they could order it for me. Well, I can order it for myself and have it delivered to my door saving me an hour in the car.

I still go to the stores for things I like to see and touch and this stuff I buy in town, but a lot of my photo things show up at the studio door via UPS.

[Brian Ellis]

I shop at Glaziers. Someone came in over the weekend and purchased all their 8x10 TriX (didn't want to bring it on the plane to Seattle). According to Glazier's, Kodak cuts 5x7 only twice a year, so they can't reorder as it sells but must anticipate their needs and stock up; if they miscalculate....no film for us to buy. Yes, they had Kodak 4x5 in stock, but I want to be able to use the same product in all formats and that doesn't seem possible with Kodak.

One nice thing about living in a metropolis is that one should be able to go to the camera store and purchase film. I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.

I prefer Ilford HP5+ anyhow, I used TMax 100 only because it was in Readyloads. But I really don't get your reasoning. What difference does it make whether you drive to a store or pick up a phone except that driving to the store uses more gas and takes more time? You certainly don't have to think a month ahead to have film shipped. You can get it overnight in a pinch and 3-4 days is normal.

Until recently I lived in a metropolitan area of about 2 1/2 million people. There wasn't a store in the area that carried 8x10 film and hadn't been one for years. When I left three years ago there was only one remaining store that carried 4x5 and then only a meager supply of TMax 100. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that they don't even carry that any more.

It's nice that you've had a store that carried what you wanted when you wanted it but you're going to spend a lot more time testing and learning the characteristics of your new film than you would spend phoning in an occasional film order.

[Charlie Strack]

I lived in SF bay area for 13 years and had the luxury of multiple local stores who could fill my photography needs with well stocked shelves.

Then I moved to a little city in northern Utah with NO local photo shops. I now just order on-line from Glazer's, Badger Graphic, Freestyle, Adorama, B&H or Calumet. Then I don't have to spend half a day trudging to Salt Lake City & back, and don't have to call to check inventory (stock status is shown on-line). I get delivery from Freestyle in a couple of days, and Badger Graphic takes only about a day longer (and tends to have good inventory).

In truth, though, a camera shop can only afford to inventory what they expect to sell--I can't blame them for that. Inventory is expensive to have!

Charlie Strack

[Frank Bagbey]

Another reason to switch: Ilford seems to care about film, Kodak does not care. Or if they do care, they sure have a long way to go to prove it.

[Bruce Watson]

Another reason to switch: Ilford seems to care about film, Kodak does not care. Or if they do care, they sure have a long way to go to prove it.

If you really think Kodak doesn't care, you flat out aren't paying attention.

This Kodak that doesn't care --- is this the same Kodak that build a new coating facility a few years ago (2003 was it)? The same one that in the last two years brought out the new knock-your-socks-off 400TMax? The same one that dropped the UV coating off that same 400TMax at the behest of the ULF crowd? The same one that just updated the entire Portra line of color negative films?

If Ilford cares so much, when are they going to show it? Where is Delta 400 in LF sizes? When's the last time they updated FP4+ or HP5+? Was it really two decades ago?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Kodak is clearly doing more to support film, and certainly LF, than Ilford has ever thought about doing. Plus, Kodak makes the two most amazing films on the planet in 400Tmax and 400PortraNC. Ilford has a lot of catching up to do.

[jp]

I've never had any trouble getting film.

There is probably no place in my state that retails LF film, and perhaps few or no places that sell b&w 35mm film anymore. Probably no places that sell chemicals either. I've never had any problems getting what I need from B&H or freestyle. B&H is generally quicker as they are on the same coast.

[Jan Pedersen]

Well said Bruce.
There seems to be a crowd on another forum that's happy to get a pad on the back from one of the Ilford/Harman reps. But nothing new comes out of Ilford at least for LF shooters quite the contrary, several products from the Kentmere product line has been discontinued.
Kodak does not get involved on forums but so what, they still by far have the best quality control perhaps only equaled by Fuji.

[John Kasaian]

I've no complaints about Kodak film aside from the size of the boxes and the prices, so Kodak is what I shoot in 4x5 and roll film. Ilford is great stuff too. So is Foma for that matter. 8x10 has always been a mail order proposition for me in Fresno. As it has been said the service from Badger Graphic, Freestyle and BandH is pretty darned quick (actually Badger works best for me when buying Kodak & Ilford film, Freestyle for Arista/Foma-oid and all my enlarging paper.) Having a few unopened boxes stashed in the freezer for "insurance" for last minute "mental health days" is the way to go.
Your post makes it sound like Kodak is going out of the film business and that just isn't so (so far.) Shoot what you enjoy and can afford. :)

[John T]

My sad day was when Ektalure G was discontinued.:(

[Ron Marshall]

Precisely! Well put.


If you really think Kodak doesn't care, you flat out aren't paying attention.

This Kodak that doesn't care --- is this the same Kodak that build a new coating facility a few years ago (2003 was it)? The same one that in the last two years brought out the new knock-your-socks-off 400TMax? The same one that dropped the UV coating off that same 400TMax at the behest of the ULF crowd? The same one that just updated the entire Portra line of color negative films?

If Ilford cares so much, when are they going to show it? Where is Delta 400 in LF sizes? When's the last time they updated FP4+ or HP5+? Was it really two decades ago?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Kodak is clearly doing more to support film, and certainly LF, than Ilford has ever thought about doing. Plus, Kodak makes the two most amazing films on the planet in 400Tmax and 400PortraNC. Ilford has a lot of catching up to do.

[jeroldharter]

I can't believe that you are posting on an internet forum complaints about availability of film yet refuse to use the computer to place an order for film. Seattle is not exactly the epicenter of the universe. I visited Glazers when I was there recently and it is a nice store but the film and darkroom component is modest. Most people think I live in the middle of nowhere in Wisconsin but I can get Kodak 4x5 and 8x10 film from Calumet or Badger on the second day after ordering without leaving my home. The shipping probably costs less then you spend for gas, parking, and taxes in Seattle.

Why does Kodak seem to be the target of all of these complaints? Why doesn't someone go after small tobacco? My Walgreens does not sell TMAX 8x10 and I am pissed! Sorry, long day of work.

[BrianShaw]

My sad day was when Ektalure G was discontinued.:(

My sad day was when Super-XX and Plus-X in 4x5 were discontinued. I suppose those were two separate sad days but I was so busy shooting 35mm at that time I noticed both were gone on the same day. I got over it, but I still miss both emulsions.

[Oren Grad]

If Ilford cares so much, when are they going to show it? Where is Delta 400 in LF sizes? When's the last time they updated FP4+ or HP5+? Was it really two decades ago?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. Kodak is clearly doing more to support film, and certainly LF, than Ilford has ever thought about doing. Plus, Kodak makes the two most amazing films on the planet in 400Tmax and 400PortraNC. Ilford has a lot of catching up to do.


Well said Bruce.
There seems to be a crowd on another forum that's happy to get a pad on the back from one of the Ilford/Harman reps. But nothing new comes out of Ilford at least for LF shooters quite the contrary, several products from the Kentmere product line has been discontinued.
Kodak does not get involved on forums but so what, they still by far have the best quality control perhaps only equaled by Fuji.

Where you stand depends on where you sit.

What Harman has done is institute a special-order program for odd-size sheet films that enables individuals to place modest orders and get what they need, unlike the Kodak program that requires a very large minimum order to go ahead with any particular size, with the result that most sizes aren't going to be cut. Since my favorite LF film is HP5 Plus and since much of my LF interest relates to unusual formats, this is far more important to me than TMY-2.

Not only that, but Harman still makes the B&W paper I need, while Kodak doesn't.

But I'm not going to conclude that therefore Harman is somehow more virtuous than Kodak, or more supportive, or better-intentioned. Or that Kodak "doesn't care", just because the product line choices they've made don't align perfectly, or as well as Harman's do, with what I want.

Both companies are doing what they can to remain viable in a very difficult market. Because of their different histories, available resources and market positions, they're taking different paths. In a declining market, the notion that introduction of entirely new products is the fundamental test of sincerity or commitment is untenable. The mere fact that both remain in this market is huge in itself, and something that far too many people seem to take for granted.

[dsphotog]

I'm just happy that ANY LF film is still avail.
That digital stuff seems to be catching on...

[Capocheny]

This discussion thread is fundamentally stupid.

Seconded!

Lots of Kodak products at a couple of local pro shops in both 4x5 and 8x10. As noted, 5x7 is cut twice a year and shouldn't pose any problems if you plan ahead a bit. I had 400 sheets sent in last year and this should be sufficient until the next order comes round. Then, I'll order more.

Regarding color 5x7... I didn't have any problems picking up Provia / Velvia from Badger in 5x7 formats... or 8x10 for that matter from Hunt Photo.

So, really, the day isn't that sad after all! :)

Cheers

[Ash]

In the UK I've found it easier to source Kodak than source Fuji. I prefer Fuji. I've gone off Ilford since it became Harman.

[IanG]

There are issues not really being discussed properly. We can all buy over the internet and from any dealer/country in the world, however sometimes you need to buy film at short notice from a store.

Kodak films other than 35mm consumer colour print film can be remarkably difficult to find, I shoot almost exclusively B&W film these days 120 & LF and I prefer to use the same film in all formats, I used Tmax100 & 400 for many years but switch to Ilford films because I couldn't buy Tmax 120 films off the shelf while travelling but Ilford films were available and often Fuji and Foma. Much of this may be because stores selling B&W films & papers invariably always stock Ilford products.

Of course I'm not living or travelling in Kodak's home market, the US but my experiences are from the UK, South America as well as Turkey & Greece.

Yes I would like Delta 400 in LF, it's a superb film in 120, but HP5 is a good film too.

Ian

[jnantz]

After over 40 years using Kodak negative films, I'm throwing in the towel! With so little Kodak sheet film available and on such a sporadic schedule, I can't operate on that basis anymore. I'll miss TriX and TMax 100, but life moves on. I start the new learning curve with Ilford today. Should I switch my medium format to Ilford, too?


i don't have any local shops in rhode island that carry what i need, most of the time ..
and it can be a pain in the neck to wait a day or 2 for film to arrive. i used to buy 5x7 films
by the 100 sheet box, but ended up getting a deal on 20boxes a few years back ...
maybe you should buy a large amount of film the next time around, so
you don't have to worry about running out ...

paper works as well as film in many situations ...

good luck with your switch!

[evan clarke]

I'm in MIlwaukee and there is no place to buy sheet film here anymore. Face it in a few more years it will all go away. Some years back somebody posted a vintage article from a newspaper which listed 10 reasons steam locomotives would never disappear.....Evan Clarke

[Wallace_Billingham]

In my small town of 6,000 people in Rural PA, I can't find any film besides color 35mm film that I can get at Wal-Mart.

Never stops me from doing what I want since I can order from B&H select standard UPS shipping and I have it in a day or two. Or I can order from Freestyle and get it in around a week.

[Gene McCluney]

Anyone in the USA can get film overnight from one of the mail-order internet vendors, and often at a similar price (including shipping) when you compare the local costs including local taxes. 99% of a persons film requirements can be met with next morning delivery, and the 1% that cannot should cause you to stock a small inventory "just in case".

[Brian Ellis]

Another reason to switch: Ilford seems to care about film, Kodak does not care. Or if they do care, they sure have a long way to go to prove it.

If Kodak doesn't care they better start. Take a look at Kodak's SEC filings. You'll see that they're earning a nice profit in their traditional photography areas, they're losing their rear end on digital.

P.S. The term "traditional photography" is mine, I forget exactly what they call it. And of course their categories are extremely broad, there's no way of knowing what goes into each area or how much profit or loss is generated by specific things like consumer film sales. But it's pretty clear that they're making money on things other than digital and losing big time on digital.

[venchka]

I shop at Glaziers. Someone came in over the weekend and purchased all their 8x10 TriX (didn't want to bring it on the plane to Seattle). According to Glazier's, Kodak cuts 5x7 only twice a year, so they can't reorder as it sells but must anticipate their needs and stock up; if they miscalculate....no film for us to buy. Yes, they had Kodak 4x5 in stock, but I want to be able to use the same product in all formats and that doesn't seem possible with Kodak.

One nice thing about living in a metropolis is that one should be able to go to the camera store and purchase film. I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.

Earth to photosailor:

I'm currently exiled to the 4th (or 3rd maybe) largest city in the gold old USA. To the best of my knowledge, we have one camera store in Houston that stocks sheet film. Mostly 4x5 color as I recall. Since adopting 4x5, I have managed to stay stocked with film through purchases on forums like this one. For me to buy locally, I would have to endure a 30 minute trip through the worst of Houston traffic to and a 1 hour trip from (rush hour) the camera store.

On the other hand, Freestyle delivers to my home in 2 days.

If you need 5x7 film and Kodak only cuts 5x7 twice a year, anticipate your needs and STOCK UP! Refrigerated film keeps a long long time.

I suppose it's time I put my money where my mouth is. Order a box of TMY-2. Using unexpired film will be a new treat.

[Bruce Watson]

One nice thing about living in a metropolis is that one should be able to go to the camera store and purchase film. I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.

Believe it or not, I get where you are coming from. I put forth a fair effort to buy everything I can locally, from local merchants and not the big box store chains. But my local camera store has treated me so badly so many times that I no longer buy from them even though they do stock the film I like.

Loyalty works both ways. It's not just about me being loyal to my store. My store has to be loyal to me too. And it sounds like Glaziers is doing a poor job of being loyal to you. I'm sorry for that. I'm often astounded by how much effort my local merchants seem to put into shooting themselves in the foot, and to personally shove their customers into the arms of the big box stores. It's no big wonder to me anymore why the big box stores are killing off the mom-and-pop stores right and left. Sadly, it doesn't have to be this way.

[cobalt]

You are better off with Ilford anyway.
Personally, I find all of their products to be superior to the Kodak equivalents, with the exception of the high speed films.

[pablo batt]

when i see a kodak b and w neg side by side with ilford they really do look so different, the kodaks strong contrast and pastel colored base really are unique, but in saying that ilford have such a beautiful subtle appearance contrasty but a little thinner in density .

era is my recommendation, so smooth and creamy, adox is in my bronica at present and will be used in the sunshine here in the jordaan amsterdam in the next few days

i love kodak long live kodak, pls digi people dont kill kodak duh

[Scott Davis]

A piece of advice-

for those complaining that they can't get the same results from Ilford that they used to get from Kodak, stop complaining, spend a weekend doing film/developer tests, and LEARN the new film. They are not the same film, and so your old standby method will not work.

For those complaining that they can't get the same results from Kodak that they got from Ilford, see above.

Yes, each film will have a different look - FP4+ is not TMY is not Fomapan 200 is not EFKE PL100. But to say that any one of them is junk because you can't get as good a result as you're used to with another film is ridiculous. Each film has its pluses and minuses, subject matter and conditions for which it is ideally suited and conditions for which it is lacking. I would no more use a ball peen hammer to turn a screw than I would use Fomapan for night shots, but that doesn't mean I can't use it for beautiful portraits printed in alt-process printing methods. TMY is wonderful for night/low-light photography, FP4+ is a great daylight film. I keep all of them in my arsenal and use them as they suit my goals.

[venchka]

Well said. Thank you.

[William McEwen]

I shop at Glaziers. Someone came in over the weekend and purchased all their 8x10 TriX (didn't want to bring it on the plane to Seattle). According to Glazier's, Kodak cuts 5x7 only twice a year, so they can't reorder as it sells but must anticipate their needs and stock up; if they miscalculate....no film for us to buy. Yes, they had Kodak 4x5 in stock, but I want to be able to use the same product in all formats and that doesn't seem possible with Kodak.

One nice thing about living in a metropolis is that one should be able to go to the camera store and purchase film. I suppose I could order from B&H or Badger; that obviates the advantage of living in a major city. You just expect that you can get film when you need it, not think ahead a month and have it shipped. I don't have that luxury with Kodak anymore, and I will with Ilford.

I live in Dallas, Texas. I have to mail order film, paper, and almost all chemicals. It's a change I had to get used to.

[venchka]

I live in Dallas, Texas. I have to mail order film, paper, and almost all chemicals. It's a change I had to get used to.

I see Dallas is about the same as Houston. It's not that the film, chemicals & paper aren't here in town. The travel time/expense is more grief than ordering online and waiting 2-3 days fro delivery. Whenever possible, and certainly in the heat of the summer, if I'm going by the local store on a Saturday I will pop in and buy whatever I may need. I bought a 5 pack of Ektar 100 120 a couple weeks ago.

I hear Austin may have a better film selection.

[John O'Connell]

If you really think Kodak doesn't care, you flat out aren't paying attention.

If Ilford cares so much, when are they going to show it? Where is Delta 400 in LF sizes? When's the last time they updated FP4+ or HP5+? Was it really two decades ago?




Ilford ain't perfect, but it hasn't discontinued any product I've relied on. With the exception of TMY, Kodak has discontinued every product I've tried to use extensively. I appreciate the Great Yellow Father's efforts in engineering wonderful, unique products and providing excellent quality control, but engineering and QC mean nothing after I have to dedicate portions of my freezer to storing discontinued film for use after its expiration date.

I'll withhold my Philippic on Kodak's extensive line of B&W paper for another time.

[William McEwen]

Well said Bruce.
There seems to be a crowd on another forum that's happy to get a pad on the back from one of the Ilford/Harman reps. But nothing new comes out of Ilford at least for LF shooters quite the contrary, several products from the Kentmere product line has been discontinued.
Kodak does not get involved on forums but so what, they still by far have the best quality control perhaps only equaled by Fuji.

The Kodak CEO and a Kodak marketing person regularly tweet on Twitter! :D