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Fabien
25-May-2009, 14:18
Hi,

I am new in the community. I am a French student in photography in UK, and after 6 months of use of a Shen Hao TZ 45II A, I decided to change it for a mono-rail camera.

My needs: archi +landscape so most of outdoors photography and wide angle.
The problem is I have a "student budget", so I have to compromise.

My first choice was Arc Swiss (F Line , or better Misura but very expensive and hard to find in Second hand)

2, Titan XL, compact, not heavy, but too much limited in movement
3, Sinar F1-F2, good price, but I heard it s a nighmare for the transport ??? and the Norma ?
4,Toyo 45CX, cheap, what a about the built (cheap too!) and is it heavier than the Sinar...

Hoping you will can help me ...
Thanks and sorry for my English, not yet fluent ...

Lachlan 717
25-May-2009, 15:37
Fabien,

The Titan isn't a monorail.

No monorail is going to be much fun to transport relative to a field camera.

However, that being said, I think that the L range of Horseman cameras are very good value, both for the actual camera and for the range of Sinar parts that will suit it.

Lachlan.

Kirk Fry
25-May-2009, 17:07
A first generation ARCA (AB or B series) would be nice with a bag bellows and short rail. Very light and you can use a flat lens board.

KFry

rdenney
25-May-2009, 17:11
The Sinar F is priced very well for the used market, and it will accept a 65mm lens on a flat lens board. A 47 on a flat board will work, but with very tight compression of the bag bellows. The cheap recessed boards available on ebay work fine.

I prefer the Sinar to the Cambo that I also own, because it is lighter, much more compact, and packs more tightly. On a 12" rail, you can disconnect the bellows from the rear standard, move the standards to the outboard ends of the rail, and then fold the front standard down flat and the rear standard over the top of it. The result is actually quite compact for a monorail view camera--more compact than anything else I've seen other than a few specialty models like the Pocket View.

I also like the 7 pages of used stuff on ebay that fits the Sinar, including everything you need from extra bellows to bag bellows to lens boards to viewing devices.

The Norma uses U-frame standards to provide axial pivots for tilts, while the F provides base tilts only. Not much different in practice though the base tilts may require more refocusing. The F is a yaw-free design and the Norma is not. But the Norma is more ruggedly made than the F.

The Arca-Swiss cameras are high quality and you could not go wrong with them. But the Sinar provides more choices in the used market, better prices, and more interchangeability over their history of models.

Rick "noting that Calumet-branded Cambos are cheaper still and still quite capable" Denney

Brian Ellis
25-May-2009, 18:48
When I search for "Sinar" on ebay I find 18 Sinar cameras of one kind or another for sale on the first page alone. There are 3 pages total. Extrapolating from the first page would indicate there's roughly 54 Sinar cameras for sale on ebay at the moment. When I search for "Shen Hao" there are none. There might be a message there for you.

Archphoto
25-May-2009, 19:00
If you are a student without money: keep the Shen Hao untill you have the money for a monorail next to it.
Sooner or later you want to have both anyway.

The Shen Hao is a great camera for the outdoors.
A Sinar the perfect camera for the studio.

And just guess who buy the Shen Hao's and other field camera's: the people who already have a monorail......
I did !

Peter

Bill_1856
25-May-2009, 20:15
No camera is perfect for all kinds of photography. If you switch you will just be trading one set of problems for a different set.
You already have a very nice camera. I'd recommend that you keep it.

rdenney
25-May-2009, 20:28
When I search for "Sinar" on ebay I find 18 Sinar cameras of one kind or another for sale on the first page alone. There are 3 pages total. Extrapolating from the first page would indicate there's roughly 54 Sinar cameras for sale on ebay at the moment. When I search for "Shen Hao" there are none. There might be a message there for you.

The message I get from that is that the Sinar cameras have been made since about 1950 and have been the market leader in the professional studio market for much of that time, and that professional studios are going digital and are dumping their large-format gear.

But I don't disagree with the advice you and others are giving, to fully explore the Shen-Hao's capabilities before deciding it has relevant limitations.

So, the question is then, what limitations are bing imposed by the Shen-Hao? They may be real. But without stating them, any advice might not solve the problem.

What is also real is the spectacular deal on a Sinar P in the for-sale forum at this moment. I have no need for it and my fingers are itching. But it would be heavier and bulkier than an F.

Rick "who also prefers a monorail but admitting to ignorance" Denney

Vick Vickery
25-May-2009, 21:07
I'd go along with those that say to keep what you have for now and start saving for another. Your present field camera is a good piece of equipment even if it is more limited than a rail camera in some respects. Start saving...it won't take long to save up enough to buy a Cambo 45N or its Calumet-branded version, which are often seen on eBay for under $200. These cameras are full-featured but basic monorail cameras which give you a full choice of movements and controls without alot extras to add to the price, but are "system" cameras with a full assortment of accessories such as fully interchangable bellows (three lengths), bag bellows, long, medium and short rails, a universal back, and big lensboards that can accomidate pretty much anything, including an adapter to take your Shen Hao boards (you may have to make it yourself, I don't know the Shen Hao board size/shape) if they are less than 6" square, so that you can use all your lenses on both cameras (I use a Graphic adaptor board that takes lenses mounted on the board for my Super Graphic). In the end, that way you'll end up with a good field camera and a good studio camera without spending an arm and a leg.

Lachlan 717
25-May-2009, 21:15
I'd go along with those that say to keep what you have for now .

Yep, spend your $$ on new/better glass!!!!!

Ron Marshall
25-May-2009, 21:55
Another option:

http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

Archphoto
26-May-2009, 02:50
@Vick: the Shen Hao uses Technika style boards.
Nearly all monorails have adapterboards for them.
I use lenses on Technika boards on my Sinar P2.

Peter

William McEwen
26-May-2009, 11:24
Hello, Fabien:

First of all, your English is just fine -- you communicated your question very well.

I, too think you have a good camera.

If you are indeed serious about getting a monorail camera, I recommend the Sinar Alpina. This was my first view camera, purchased new in 1985. I happily shot thousands of portraits, landscapes, and even some paying jobs with it. I miss it!

Of course, it didn't fold down to a small package. But it set up very quickly.

I'm not sure how plentiful they are on the used market.

Let us know what you decide.

Bonjour,

Wiilliam

Fabien
26-May-2009, 11:34
Thanks a lot guys for all the posts ...

Ok, I do agree with you in the way that the Shen Hao is a good camera, but this model (TZ 45II A) is the less suitable for the Wide Angle (the HZ an TZ IIB are better, it's different), just read the specs.
For example; I tried to use this one with a SA 90mm an 75 mm f5.6, with WA bellow but impossible to focus, need a recessed lens board, and with a prontor = not fit and compal = not easy to access to the apertures.

I want to focus in architecture, and I am young, so I think can try to manage the weight ...

But other questions ...

what's the difference between the F1 and F2 ?
some people told me that the Fs are not too heavy (4kg) but the problems could be the dimension, the setting up for the transport (remove the bellow, fold the mount ...) but is it really a problem ?
-and that could use the lever/clamp ...
-and is it possible to change the front standard to an 6x7 one (=>f3) or the f3's the same size ?
How bout the Ps (I know the difference) but is it the same issues (transport, weight, settings)

Cheers

Bob Salomon
26-May-2009, 12:01
Thanks a lot guys for all the posts ...

Ok, I do agree with you in the way that the Shen Hao is a good camera, but this model (TZ 45II A) is the less suitable for the Wide Angle (the HZ an TZ IIB are better, it's different), just read the specs.
For example; I tried to use this one with a SA 90mm an 75 mm f5.6, with WA bellow but impossible to focus, need a recessed lens board, and with a prontor = not fit and compal = not easy to access to the apertures.

I want to focus in architecture, and I am young, so I think can try to manage the weight ...

But other questions ...

what's the difference between the F1 and F2 ?
some people told me that the Fs are not too heavy (4kg) but the problems could be the dimension, the setting up for the transport (remove the bellow, fold the mount ...) but is it really a problem ?
-and that could use the lever/clamp ...
-and is it possible to change the front standard to an 6x7 one (=>f3) or the f3's the same size ?
How bout the Ps (I know the difference) but is it the same issues (transport, weight, settings)

Cheers

You should also look at the Linhof TechnikKardan. It is a folding monorail and takes lenses from 55mm up on a flat board and from 35 to 47mm on recessed boards.

rdenney
26-May-2009, 12:19
what's the difference between the F1 and F2 ?
some people told me that the Fs are not too heavy (4kg) but the problems could be the dimension, the setting up for the transport (remove the bellow, fold the mount ...) but is it really a problem ?
-and that could use the lever/clamp ...
-and is it possible to change the front standard to an 6x7 one (=>f3) or the f3's the same size ?
How bout the Ps (I know the difference) but is it the same issues (transport, weight, settings)

The F1 uses the "multipurpose standard" as a front lens standard, while the F2 uses something more like the rear standard (but opposite hand so the controls will be on the same side of the camera). The F1's front standard is a clip-on standard with no fine focusing (which can be done using the rear standard). The F2's front standard has geared fine focusing. The F1 front standard's clamp uses a fold-over catch that hooks into a plastic hook, and it can break if you tighten it too much. The F2's front standard is solid.

The F2 comes standard with a metering back, while the F1 does not. Unless you intend to use the Sinar metering probe, this is a non-issue.

The main difference between the F and the F1/F2 is that the latter separate the controls for swings and lateral shifts, while the former uses a single control. Not that big a difference in practice.

The F-series cameras have geared movements only for focusing. The P-series cameras have gear movements for everything, as you know. That makes the standards for the P much bulkier and heavier than the standards for the F. But everything else is compatible between them--the monorail and monorail extensions, tripod clamp, bellows, lens boards, backs, viewing accessories, compendium shade accessories, separate shutters, and so on.

All the Sinar F's also have integral calculators on the tilt to allow precise tilting to achieve a particular focal plane. I learned on cameras that didn't have these, so I haven't really explored this feature, but reports indicate it's good for beginners to view cameras.

It's possible to convert an F to an F2 by replacing the front standard. I just found a deal on an F2 front standard for well under $200, and replacement F and F1 standards are commonly available. I'll use my current F standard as a multipurpose standard to hold the front of a compendium bellows, to allow bellows to be connected in series, and to hold a bellows on the rear for viewing. The P standards will also interchange, but they are more expensive.

With the Sinar F, you won't need a recessed lens board for any lens. Even the 47 will work on a flat board, but you'll have to move the standards to the same side of the tripod clamp and pay careful attention not to let any part of the bag bellows to fold between the standards. With a recessed board, the 47 is more convenient to use. I have mounted my 65mm lens on a flat board and it works fine.

Folding up is easy, with two options. You can unclip the bellows from the rear standard and turn both standards sideways by releasing one clamp on each. You can also fold one standard down and fold the other standard down over it, though I had to raise it slightly so it would fold flat. Either will fit in a smallish case with that approach--far smaller than I could achieve with my Cambo.

I know nothing about the compatibility between the F through F2 series with the F3, but Sinar has made its reputation on avoiding obsolescence. I've never handled an F3, so I just don't know. My suspicion is that the F3 is the same size. You can, of course, put any rollfilm back of your choice on an F without issue. I have a Singer-Graflex RH-20 (6x7), an MPP 6x9 back, a much-preferred Wista 6x9 back, and a Shen-Hao 6x12 back. The ground glass slips off the F very easily allowing the installation of those backs. I have marked my ground glass to show the outlines of those other formats.

Geared tilt is a nice feature when using very short lenses (which come with smaller formats), because the tilt required is much less. But I have never had it on my view cameras.

Rick "becoming a big fan of the Sinar" Denney

Fabien
27-May-2009, 15:20
Thanks a lot Rick, with all this infos, just something miss, the camera ...
I start the hunt ...

Darren H
14-Jun-2009, 16:10
I would agree with the posters who say to stick with what you have.

However if you are still interested in a monorail and an Arca-Swiss, I would suggest searching for a Discovery. This was a less expensive camera that is all but the F-line and uses the 171mm sized boards.

I have one that I have modified a bit with a folding rail, bag bellows, and 110 lensboard adapter. That makes it much easier to carry but it will still be bulkier than a Shen-Hao.

You can see some recent postings/review/images I did on my blog about the Discovery.

http://thetravelingcamera.blogspot.com/search/label/Arca-Swiss%20Discovery

Good luck!