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Shen45
21-May-2009, 18:49
Has anyone used butane lighter gas from the small refill canisters to replace air in developer bottles? I have just started using it with Dektol stock solution in a 5 litre container and have noticed no colour change after 2 months in a half full container. There doesn't appear to be any change in activity from fresh either.

I suppose my question is related to any known interactions between the gas and the developer. I have heard of people using the same thing for colour chemistry with very good results.

Toyon
21-May-2009, 20:10
You a smoker? Hope not.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
21-May-2009, 20:22
Wouldn't nitrogen, like they use with wine (and nitrogen burst tanks), be a better, less flammable option?

Eric Woodbury
21-May-2009, 20:58
Use nitrogen if you have it. Butane seems like a bad idea. Explosive in the right proportions with air, it has an odorant that stinks and that may react too, and if it is like propane and benzene, it is corrosive to some rubbers and plastics.

Joanna Carter
22-May-2009, 00:36
Despite all the worry about explosions, Tetenal's Protectan is a mixture of butane and propane and seeing that most aerosol sprays like anti-perspirant contain such gases as the propellant, I think you will find the likelihood of an explosion is not that strong.

Ross Chambers
22-May-2009, 00:50
I was intending to be self-righteous and to express surprise that anyone could use such an inflammable gas for this purpose, so I grabbed my usual anti-oxidant agent; Tetenal Protectan which is made for the job, from the darkroom to check it. I've just read the label (hoping to find that it was inert and safe).

However:

" Attention! Extremely flammable. Do not spray on naked flame or any red-hot surfaces. The solvents and gases of this product can produce mixtures of vapours and air which are explosive and combustible. Intentional misuse by deliberately concentrating and/or inhaling contents may be fatal." etc.

I wonder if it would work in a Zippo?

Thanks for the unintended heads up.

Regards - Ross

Toyon
22-May-2009, 06:01
Despite all the worry about explosions, Tetenal's Protectan is a mixture of butane and propane and seeing that most aerosol sprays like anti-perspirant contain such gases as the propellant, I think you will find the likelihood of an explosion is not that strong.

Its a little different spraying an aerosol that is instantly dispersed and concentrating a flammable gas then emptying it into a table or tray. It is also far from inert. I am sure there are better choices, like Argon gas.

Joanna Carter
22-May-2009, 06:35
Its a little different spraying an aerosol that is instantly dispersed and concentrating a flammable gas then emptying it into a table or tray. It is also far from inert. I am sure there are better choices, like Argon gas.
In that case, maybe you should use a nitrogen, CO2 and argon wine preserver gas mix.

Shen45
22-May-2009, 18:43
Well this has been interesting to say the least. For a start the application of the gas is approximately 1/10 of a second in a downward action inside the opening of the bottle and capped immediately.

I'm not surprised at the replies of experts that have never tried the method and immediately adopt the nanny state PC attitude that everything is bad and going to kill you.

No I don't smoke and never have. As for flammable, yes -- very -- however if you have ever lit a gas stove in your kitchen and the gas hasn't immedieatley lit you face a similar danger with the addition of a lit match.

I often wonder how some of you guys get out of bed some days to face the big bad world.

Jan Pedersen
22-May-2009, 18:49
I often wonder how some of you guys get out of bed some days to face the big bad world. :D

Don't fart near open flames ;)

E Thomson
22-May-2009, 20:30
This product is specifically recommended for photo chemicals.

http://www.bloxygen.com/

kev curry
22-May-2009, 22:56
Tell it like it is Steve:)

Don Hutton
23-May-2009, 06:11
I use one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Hummingbird-Ultra-Wine-Saver-Kit/dp/B000O3GA5C Works really well and is designed for dispensing into bottles...

Beware that some wine saving devices do not use pure argon - some use a mixture which contains CO2 which you do not want because CO2 will typically dissolve and decrease the PH of the solution - which in the case of developers is almost always a bad idea.

The Ultra Wine Saver pumps out pure Argon at a flow rate of 1.4 inches per second. It's a simple matter to calculate the surface area of the chemistry you're looking to protect and then to work out how many seconds of the UWS are required to dispense a 2 inch blanket of argon onto it. I've been using it for about 2 years. It's a bargain for any darkroom. I don't bother with general B&W chemistry, but for color developers and exotic B&W chemistry, it works a treat.

Alan Davenport
23-May-2009, 11:33
Well this has been interesting to say the least. <SNIP>
I'm not surprised at the replies of experts that have never tried the method and immediately adopt the nanny state PC attitude that everything is bad and going to kill you. <SNIP> I often wonder how some of you guys get out of bed some days to face the big bad world.

Since the important thing is keep oxygen from getting to the developer, your technique is certainly going to be effective. I'm sure you'll never have a problem, unless you perchance dump the pooled butane out of the developer bottle when there's an ignition source nearby. Probably never happen.

I think what the other posters were trying to say, is that your method may carry some risk, and that there are other ways to accomplish the goal that carry virtually no risk. Certainly you are free to choose.

I am adamantly against the nanny state, as you call it. I prefer to let the tree of life naturally do its own pruning.

There is no "big bad world." The world simply does not care.

nolindan
25-May-2009, 08:20
butane lighter gas from the small refill canisters to replace air in developer bottles?

I have used the gas in 'Dust-Off' which I believe to be Butane. It didn't seem to appreciably lengthen developer life.

resummerfield
25-May-2009, 11:40
I use Nitrogen now, but before that I used a simple propane torch and gas cylinder. It was very simple to use, very low expense, and it worked!

Vlad Soare
26-May-2009, 02:25
This may be a silly question, but how do you know how much gas to use? Given that it's invisible, how can you make sure that you've used enough to cover the surface of the developer?
If I understand correctly, butane is heavier than air and will settle at the surface of the liquid, forming a barrier between the liquid and the air above. So I could theoretically store any quantity, however small, of developer in a (glass) bottle, as long as I put in enough butane to cover its surface. Is this correct? But how can I tell if I've used enough (I mean, other than waiting for a few months to see if the developer goes bad :D)? Is there any trick?
Thanks.

Sevo
26-May-2009, 03:04
If I understand correctly, butane is heavier than air and will settle at the surface of the liquid, forming a barrier between the liquid and the air above. So I could theoretically store any quantity, however small, of developer in a (glass) bottle, as long as I put in enough butane to cover its surface. Is this correct?

No. Gases of different molecular weight only keep separate for a brief period and will inevitably mix over the course of time. You have to put in enough gas to replace almost all air. The thin, low volume nozzle will allow pouring in gas so that it does not immediately mix with air but replaces it bottom up, and you can estimate the amount needed either by time and the l/min volume stated on the bottle or visually, as the refraction of butane differs visibly from air, so that you can see the excess gas spilling out of the bottle.

Vlad Soare
26-May-2009, 03:39
I see. Thanks.

Toyon
26-May-2009, 04:30
Pretty churlish Steve.


Well this has been interesting to say the least. For a start the application of the gas is approximately 1/10 of a second in a downward action inside the opening of the bottle and capped immediately.

I'm not surprised at the replies of experts that have never tried the method and immediately adopt the nanny state PC attitude that everything is bad and going to kill you.

No I don't smoke and never have. As for flammable, yes -- very -- however if you have ever lit a gas stove in your kitchen and the gas hasn't immedieatley lit you face a similar danger with the addition of a lit match.

I often wonder how some of you guys get out of bed some days to face the big bad world.

Bazz8
29-May-2009, 05:34
This may be a silly question, but how do you know how much gas to use? Given that it's invisible, how can you make sure that you've used enough to cover the surface of the developer?
If I understand correctly, butane is heavier than air and will settle at the surface of the liquid, forming a barrier between the liquid and the air above. So I could theoretically store any quantity, however small, of developer in a (glass) bottle, as long as I put in enough butane to cover its surface. Is this correct? But how can I tell if I've used enough (I mean, other than waiting for a few months to see if the developer goes bad :D)? Is there any trick?
Thanks.

No real trick not to disagree with the earlier poster regarding wether it works or not
I have used this method for over 5 years with the longest period being 9 months or so!
As to how much a generous press of a suitable fitting spray top as the butane does not have a nozzle I use a nozzle that fits a 100mm long tube and spray a generous squirt into a reasonably full container and seal the top with a piece of plastic over the top of the bottle and screw on the lid,with my processer bottles I use the plastic with several rubber bands to hold the air tight seal to hold the gas.
Developer being processor ilford, kodak and e-6 colour chem using half the amount and sealing the rest as for the butane mixing with the developer the chap who put me on to this is a german doctor and is very padantic re: quality etc and did not seem to have any qualms regarding this use.
And I havn,t blown anything up yetPhew!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D