Police action against photographer

[Ron Marshall]

This is not LF or even still photography, but I thought it might interest the community as the actions described have possible implications for all photographers:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2009/05/15/mb-filmmaker-camera-confiscated.html

[Gem Singer]

Since 9/11, the free world has become un-easy regarding people using cameras to record scenes on public streets. Especially government buildings.

Our little photo group was confronted by a policeman in downtown Ft.Worth, TX and told that we could not photograph certain public buildings.

Seems like the terrorists have succeeded in their efforts. The police are terrorized.

[Deane Johnson]

It all seems so stupid. Would a terrorist set up a tripod and a view camera, or even a medium format camera? It seems to me they would be very unobtrusive, using small, almost unnoticeable cameras. It would be done so quickly that it would go unnoticed.

If one were suspicious of a person, would it make sense to tell them to go away? Or would you want to observe them and determine if they were up to some sort of no good. Go figure?

Reminds me of a cop in a small town in Iowa many years ago who noticed a car that was reported stolen parked on the main street. The dummy put a note under the windshield wiper asking the person driving it to come to the police station.

[Marko]

This is a free country, most anybody can tell or ask you anything. In most cases you have the right to refuse, but when it comes to the police officer, it is much smarter to comply, verbally state your compliance just so there's no doubt and when that's been cleared up (camera down or in the bag), ask for explanation and for identification or even to talk to their superiors.

Any complaint will look better and have greater chance of success if there is no pretext for the other party to claim some wrong, such as disorderly conduct, public nuisance, resisting arrest or some other such rubbish. And we all should complain when something like that happens, including making as much public stink as possible. Also, if there is no arrest, they don't have the right to take your camera nor even see the images on it much less delete them, unless you specifically let them.

[Paul Kierstead]

... when it comes to the police officer, it is much smarter to comply, verbally state your compliance just so there's no doubt and when that's been cleared up (camera down or in the bag), ask for explanation and for identification or even to talk to their superiors.


Smarter? I dunno about smarter. Definitely will significantly lower the chances of you getting a smack down. But, lets say it goes like this:

Officer: "Stop photographing this building and leave"
You: "Ok". You comply.

Now what? There is no case. You can complain, but since nothing "happened", your complaint will fall on deaf ears. No one cares. After all, nothing happened to you. Furthermore, you will have, essentially, no legal recourse (in effect anyway).

To challenge the law generally requires resistance. Going along is not resistance. People have become too meek.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Since 9/11, the free world has become un-easy regarding people using cameras to record scenes on public streets. Especially government buildings.

Not in Canada. From my experience, anyway.
I've never ever had a problem from police. I've photographed every building you could imagine, including the parliament buildings in Victoria, City Hall in Vancouver, bridges. Cops have stopped, walked over to talk to me about my camera and what kind of photography I do. I have to be more worried about druggies stealing my stuff when I'm under the dark cloth than overzealous cops.

[Gem Singer]

Paul,

I agree that people have become too meek. Essentially, they have given up their basic freedoms in favor of government control of their well being.

In the USA, policeman (law enforcement agents) are equipped with weapons such as pistol, club, pepper spray, and Taser gun. They have been trained to shoot first and ask questions later.

I have lived in the USA for seventy-nine years. It's amazing how easily the citizens of this country were willing to give up their basic rights of freedom after the terror attack on 9/11/01.

Marko,

This used to be a free country. Not anymore. Try telling that to a TSA agent at an airport, or a policeman in downtown Ft. Worth, Texas.

[Paul Kierstead]

Cops have stopped, walked over to talk to me about my camera and what kind of photography I do.

And that is almost the perfect response. If you were up to no good, an approach by a policeman will definitely increase your stress level. After a little chat with you, if he is experienced and trained, he should get a good idea very quickly of whether you are a threat or a photographer. *That* is the police doing their job.

[Kevin Crisp]

"In the USA, policeman (law enforcement agents) are equipped with weapons such as pistol, club, pepper spray, and Taser gun. They have been trained to shoot first and ask questions later."

That's the dumbest comment I've seen on this forum since I blocked The Lounge.

[Gem Singer]

Kevin,

Move to Texas, and you will soon realize that my comment isn't so dumb.

You just lived through eight years with a president who had that attitude.

Didn't you learn anything from that experience?

[goamules]

Oh, the stories I could tell. Here's one. I used to work near White Sands Missile range. I built training for the stealth fighter pilots. Had a secret clearance and more. A few times a year hunters are allowed, if they are drawn in a lottery, to hunt the exotic oryx that were released there decades ago. The main rule was "no photography."

The areas we hunted were desolate scrub land with nothing there. I know. Just oryx and chaparral. So we were turned loose for days on end (camped out there) but were not allowed to photograph our trophy if we got one. Because we were at the super-secret missile testing range, but about 20 miles from the nearest launch site. Several interstate highways run within 2-3 miles of these launch sites, by the way.

I worked for/around the military and gov for over 23 years. Police types take security seriously - if it's easy to enforce and not too abstract to understand.

[Gem Singer]

Marko,

Returning from Jacksonville, Fla., after X-Raying my camera bag, a TSA agent pulled me aside (I hadn't put my shoes back on, nor replaced the belt on my pants that they insisted I remove).

The agent rummaged through the camera bag, removing and examining each item. He swabbed every item for explosives. Puzzled look on his face. Evidently, he had never seen a Fuji 6X7 camera before. He handed the bag back to me.

I was curious, so I innocently asked him if a little old man in stocking feet, who was about to loose his pants, posed a security threat to the airlines.

He immediately turned me over to his supervisor who asked me what my problem was. Questioned my reason for asking, and threatened to make me miss my flight. If the flight would have departed on time, I would have missed it. The flight was running an hour late.

Those guys are completely devoid of a sense of humor.

[Brian Ellis]

Marko,

Returning from Jacksonville, Fla., after X-Raying my camera bag, a TSA agent pulled me aside (I hadn't put my shoes back on, nor replaced the belt on my pants that they insisted I remove).

The agent rummaged through the camera bag, removing and examining each item. He swabbed every item for explosives. Puzzled look on his face. Evidently, he had never seen a Fuji 6X7 camera before. He handed the bag back to me.

I was curious, so I innocently asked him if a little old man in stocking feet, who was about to loose his pants, posed a security threat to the airlines.

He immediately turned me over to his supervisor who asked me what my problem was. Questioned my reason for asking, and threatened to make me miss my flight. If the flight would have departed on time, I would have missed it. The flight was running an hour late.

Those guys are completely devoid of a sense of humor.

Most of us don't try to be comedians when dealing with something as serious as security on an airline.

[BrianShaw]

Oh... one more thought, Gem. TSA took my camera bag aside once and swabbed all of the gear... and one piece (F3 body, I think) tested positive. Talk about a surpise! Fifteen (15) minutes later... which included a chat with a supervisor, a lot of questions, complete retesting of all equipment, and a sincere apologies from TSA... I was on my way to the departure gate. It's not fun but I didn't find it to be too inconvenient or time consuming.

[Nathan Potter]

Intrusiveness has always been around in the US but is now more invasive due to the publics' paranoia about being put upon. But there are suttle ways of dealing with it; which brings me to an experience a friend of mine had in the sixties. He had a summer job during anthropology graduate school which took him to a small island off the south coast of Puerto Rico. The Island was a repository for Rhesus monkeys supported by the NIH for research and the preservation of known strains of such monkeys. Regular trips were made through Puerto Rico customs in San Juan where my friend was always searched and treated not so nicely (he was Armenian with a beady eye appearance). Well finally one summer he was carrying a sealed can through customs and of course was stopped and asked to open the can for inspection. "Well that would not be wise" he replied - or something to that effect. Of course the customs fellow insisted and some equipment was found to pry off the sealed lid. Well inside was a macerating monkey head in fluid with an attendant horrible smell, which when experienced once can never be forgotten. The article being transmitted to the anthropology dept. at the University of South Carolina as I recall for skull study. Usually such objects were mailed. Well thereafter, when my friend went thru customs at San Juan he always carried THE can and never had any flack and was never asked to open it. Word spreads fast through official ranks I guess.

Well not particularly related to LF but perhaps a lesson to be learned about peaceful, passive resistance to intrusive authority.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[neil poulsen]

Hi everyone.

I've hidden a number of posts in this thread. They were related more to a political discussion and did not mention anything about LF or photography in general. In making these changes, it was my intent to preserve our no politics guideline, yet retain the photographic topic on which this thread was initially based.

[Marko]

Hi everyone.

I've hidden a number of posts in this thread. They were related more to a political discussion and did not mention anything about LF or photography in general. In making these changes, it was my intent to preserve our no politics guideline, yet retain the photographic topic on which this thread was initially based.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly do we separate police treatment of photographers form politics?

And how do we retain the photographic topic of the thread which started by a message which claimed not to be about photography at all, strictly speaking?


This is not LF or even still photography, but I thought it might interest the community as the actions described have possible implications for all photographers:

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2009/05/15/mb-filmmaker-camera-confiscated.html

(Bold mine for emphasis --MK)

This IS the Business section and photographers do need to travel with their gear, after all.

[windpointphoto]

Most of us don't try to be comedians when dealing with something as serious as security on an airline.

Yes, and I'm usually stuck behind these funny little people.

[Allen in Montreal]

It is spinning out of control faster and faster with each month that passes!

Not too long ago, while two police were arresting a man with a knife, one cop told me if I took another picture I would be arrested, I showed him my press pass and kept shooting. He muttered a few choice words knowing he could not (or should not) bother me.

Moments later he crossed the street and told me they could not hold the second man who was with the "suspect" and ordered to me to take a picture of the second man and e mail him a high rez showing his face since he could not photograph the second man without arresting him!!

I refused and explained how that puts my life on the line the next time I cross paths with a street gang, I become nothing more than an informant at that point. A few more choice words and he left again.

I read last week the police have asked (and will most certainly succeed) to have legislation changed here in Canada to allow finger printing and photographing of anyone detained by police, even if no charges are to be laid!
DNA will be next no doubt.

[Steve M Hostetter]

Since 9/11, the free world has become un-easy regarding people using cameras to record scenes on public streets. Especially government buildings.

Our little photo group was confronted by a policeman in downtown Ft.Worth, TX and told that we could not photograph certain public buildings.

Seems like the terrorists have succeeded in their efforts. The police are terrorized.

It's just a reason to mess with people... So I guess the terrorists that bombed the world trade center needed to photograph the buildings ..?

You can stay in any cheap hotel and get a pamplet (map) that discribes the area around you.. The one I picked up was in Laffayette Indiana, it showed where all the gov buildings were located and their scale and shape.. Abe Lincoln once said," If they wanna kill me they will kill me." figures the cops would be watching the wrong ppl,God forbid it being more difficult then arresting a hooker,,maybe they should hang out at the local flight school instead of Dunkin Donuts

Police ask guy why such a large camera..? Guy says," well, I just thought I'd make an artful statement before I raise this structure to the ground.. Oh boy..

[anchored]

Perhaps there's good reason for the police to question users of large format cameras when set up shooting government buildings. Have you fellows looked at yourselves? Frequently hiding your face under blankets in public even when it's over 100... fidgeting forever under that blanket before making a shutter go click... mutterin' math equations and the occasional expletive to one-self... huge bag of god-knows-what layin' on sidewalk by a tripod large enough to mount a small howitzer.

I don't believe I've ever seen a group of odder lookin' characters than large format photographers (most of us appear like old hippies, survivalists, or militia-types)... I've never seen a large format photographer that looks like a doctor or lawyer or Wall Street business man or police officer. No wonder the police, and the public, look upon you/us as "suspicious characters."

Oh... by the way... I don't believe myself odd, although I have been called "eccentric" more than once (I've been advised eccentric is only used in front of the so-labelled person... the word crazy, or at least odd, used behind their back).

I fully understand why police or security officers usually unstrap their holsters before approaching such motley looking people. If the shoe was on the other foot I most likely would too.

Perhaps it ain't the equipment that draws the attention... it's the "eccentric" handlin' that equipment that appears to be so suspicious.

[Steve M Hostetter]

they shouldn't mess with people no matter whether they are sitting painting a picture or taking a picture ... I suppose they should use common sense and know that a terrorist won't make the mistake of taking a photo since they know they could be arrested

[kev curry]

So what about people with green spikey hair, tight trousers, piercings, tattoos, facial hair or even shifty eyes....! If only you had a sufficient number of brain cells to understand the logic of your own position!

[Steve M Hostetter]

they shouldn't mess with people no matter whether they are sitting painting a picture or taking a picture ... I suppose they should use common sense and know that a terrorist won't make the mistake of taking a photo since they know they could be arrested

[Gem Singer]

"a group of odder lookin' characters".

Hey Glenn, I resemble that remark!

[Steve M Hostetter]

I think most police officers see us as a refreshing change to the norm .. I know I felt that way when I attended a group meeting with the large format asylum in Gary Indiana... I remember a female cop got out of her squad car to remove a blowing tarp from the road right in front of us and didn't give us a second thought..

[Drew Wiley]

Long before 9/11 I've been hassled many times by redneck cops. Some of the polygamous cults around the Arizona strip and Utah coal country are really paranoid about cameras anywhere other than in the Natl Parks, and even once on the N rim of the Grand Can I've been stopped and run out. I'm about as middle-class looking as they come, was raised in a cowboy & Indian town, so hardly draw attention other than the fact I use a big camera. Was even kidnapped once by an inbred rancher, the type that thought the US is being secretly invaded by the UN and that those big tripod-mounted devices highway surveyors use are part of the conspiracy to guide the invasion. Rural areas are no different than big cities and you always have to be aware of who and what's around you. Then there's always a few uneducated park rangers who think you need a commercial permit to use a tripod. Seen it all.

[sanchi heuser]

Perhaps there's good reason for the police to question users of large format cameras when set up shooting government buildings. Have you fellows looked at yourselves? Frequently hiding your face under blankets in public even when it's over 100... fidgeting forever under that blanket before making a shutter go click... mutterin' math equations and the occasional expletive to one-self... huge bag of god-knows-what layin' on sidewalk by a tripod large enough to mount a small howitzer.

I don't believe I've ever seen a group of odder lookin' characters than large format photographers (most of us appear like old hippies, survivalists, or militia-types)... I've never seen a large format photographer that looks like a doctor or lawyer or Wall Street business man or police officer. No wonder the police, and the public, look upon you/us as "suspicious characters."

Oh... by the way... I don't believe myself odd, although I have been called "eccentric" more than once (I've been advised eccentric is only used in front of the so-labelled person... the word crazy, or at least odd, used behind their back).

I fully understand why police or security officers usually unstrap their holsters before approaching such motley looking people. If the shoe was on the other foot I most likely would too.

Perhaps it ain't the equipment that draws the attention... it's the "eccentric" handlin' that equipment that appears to be so suspicious.



Hi,
Going to the next boutique is not the solution for the problem.
I wear the clothes and choose a haircut that I like. And everybody should do this.
The more eccentric the better:cool: , it's our freedom.

When I photographed an old style gas station, in my hometown Düsseldorf, police appeared
and asked me what I'm doing. I answered that I make photos of this beautiful
old gas station, because I got information that it is planned to tear down the station.

They told me, if I didn't knew, that just half a mile away, a terrorist group
is facing the justice in an special high security court building.
This group tried to install a very dangerous explosive device in a train and it was pure luck that the device didn't explode!

The officer told me, because of that circumstances their job is it, to record everything that is unusual around the court building.
They wanted me to show my identity card, that was all.
They said photography is allowed at all, they just wanted to check my identity; they were very polite and correct.

After that we talked a quarter hour about large format photography, they were
very interessted on my Sinar F :) .

sanchi

[bvstaples]

Hi,

After that we talked a quarter hour about large format photography, they were
very interessted on my Sinar F :) .



I've found that being polite and personable usually makes me less suspicious, and if I'm willing to talk cameras and photography, most a very interested. I encounter the same thing when I set up telescopes for sidewalk astronomy: I got some scopes that look just like canons but once I let them take a peak through the eyepiece, then suspicion drops and friendly chat ensues.

The last think I would ever do is accuse a peace officer of infringing on my rights. Right, wrong or indifferent, the last thing anyone should do is tick off a policeman.


BVS

[anchored]

Kev sez: "So what about people with green spikey hair, tight trousers, piercings, tattoos, facial hair or even shifty eyes....! If only you had a sufficient number of brain cells to understand the logic of your own position!"

I have yet to see anyone meeting your descriptive shootin' large format cameras and... film (most likely having NO idea what this relic is). Cell phones fit this prototype.

Perhaps you suffer from a severe lack of humor? (forgive... can also be spelled "humour"... we haven't yet gotten around to teach UK'ers to spell all words correctly). Haven't had a brain cell count recently, but then again I don't recall much in the way of logic in anything posted on this thread... but do believe you may be taking things FAR too seriously.

Now... concerning those with green spiky hair, piercings, facial hair, and tight trousers (called pants in this part of the world since the middle ages):

I haven't a clue how old you are... perhaps too young to recall much in the way of history, but I grew up in the 1960's and 1970's. When I wonder why kids dress and do the way they do, I try to consider what OUR parents thought about us (no doubt they thought most of us to looked awfully ridiculous). Let's remember the past: VERY long hair, no lack of facial hair (I sported a "stylish" Fu Manchu mustache), the Sexual Revolution (this war went on without my participation), drug use rampant (rock concerts always had a certain "air" about them), and yes... even tight trousers called "bell-bottomed pants." To add to the look we wore roman sandals instead of shoes. Oh yeah, when we were young we were SO very conservative when compared to today's youth.

I personally fit the appearance of an "old hippy" myself... perhaps those green haired youth also think me to be eccentric in appearance..... especially when using that big old camera, with my head hid under that blanket.

[jnantz]

Long before 9/11 I've been hassled many times by redneck cops.

same here drew

i've been hassled by rental, local and state cops, as well as plain old
"americans" way before then ... since the 1980s ...
the cops don't scare me as much as the rednecks do ...

[kev curry]

Glenn, my opposition to your post starts on the first line where you seek to down play and justify the erosion of basic rights, based on as you state... ''Perhaps there's good reason for the police to question users of large format cameras when set up shooting government buildings. Have you fellows looked at yourselves?'' etc etc.
I don't believe that I'm short on humor, but I absolutely don't see any room for it in this context. Nothing other than a serious attitude should be taken on these matters.
BTW... if you were to where your pants out on the streets here in the UK you would most likely be surrounded by howls of laughter before being taken away by the nice men with the white coats.

[David Luttmann]

Not in Canada. From my experience, anyway.
I've never ever had a problem from police. I've photographed every building you could imagine, including the parliament buildings in Victoria, City Hall in Vancouver, bridges. Cops have stopped, walked over to talk to me about my camera and what kind of photography I do. I have to be more worried about druggies stealing my stuff when I'm under the dark cloth than overzealous cops.

I didn't know they moved the Parliament buildings from Ottawa to Victoria. I'll have to go see them in the inner harbour. :D

[Kevin Crisp]

The Parliament buildings were at 501 Belleville Street, Victoria, BC, last time I was there. But maybe they moved them again.

[Bob McCarthy]

I didn't know they moved the Parliament buildings from Ottawa to Victoria. I'll have to go see them in the inner harbour. :D

I believe the state (or correctly province) gov is also a Parliament

http://www.victoriabc.ca/victoria/parliamentbuildings.htm

[Allen in Montreal]

I believe the state (or correctly province) gov is also a Parliament.....

You are correct, lots of layers in our Parliamentary system, hence the huge tax bills,
One for you, and one you, and one you,and one you,and one you.......
and 1/10 of one left for me! :mad:

but lots of pretty buildings to photograph!