Inexpensive Film Hangers Any Size!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I want to pre-qualify this post by saying that this is in the idea stage and I have not yet built a prototype, but it looks like a good possibility for inexpensive film hangers that will not be too hard to make.
this all came about due to the fact that I have 500 sheets of 11x14 x-ray film that I got for a great price. X-ray film has emulsion on both sides and from what I've read you should use hangers or flat bottom trays for development. I develop most all of my film in tanks, at least my 4x5 and 8x10, and I can do 11x14 film in hangers.My 11x14 hangers are really only suited to traditional film due to their design.
I was given this idea by my friend and fellow photographer Matt who said I should look at window screen frames. I went to Lowe's and found a 7' piece of aluminum screen frame and I decided to play. The frame has a slot that is about 3/16 of an inch deep so I decided for my test to bend the frame into the shape I needed. I measured my tanks for the depth I needed and got to bending this stuff which is very easy. I was able to get the shape I need and the film slides right in. The problem is that this material is not too rigid with out a cross bar of some kind. I took out one of my Kodak 8x10 hangers and looked at it. What I'm going to do on the prototype is to epoxy instead of bend the aluminum at the corners to keep things square, and put a rod through the top cross bar so that it can flip over the top of the film and hold it in place. i will more than likely have to drill some drain holes in the bottom and the sides but this should be easy to do. These pictures are funky idea shots. This stuff is only about $ 4-5 apiece and depending on the size of the hanger you may be able to get two out of one piece or even more. One could even make 8x20 hangers and then just fabricate some plexi-glass tanks and be ready to go. Once I have a prototype I'll be sure to show some photo's of it.

Jim

[Gene McCluney]

I will be very interested in your progress. I will comment that the sheer volume of film presented to the developer can cause enough movement to push the film out of the holder when you raise and lower the hanger for agitation. That is why actual Xray hangers use film clips that hold the film under tension at four corners. X-ray stainless steel film hangers are about $43 each in 11x14 size.

There are some plastic hangers made for "certain" sizes of Xray film, and I purchased one of those (they are cheap at $14.95 ea) to examine it. It is a piece of crap. I don't see how the film would stay in, under agitation stresses.

[vinny]

Jim, you surely need something that clips over the film at the top similar to a regular sheet film hanger. If you cut the pieces, make sure they're watertight so as not to take on chemicals and contaminate your tanks from one step to another.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Like I said this is in the idea stage. I think it will be very rigid when I put the top piece on it. The difficulty will be in being very precise with my cuts so that everything is very tight and rigid. Once I have the prototype done and tested I let you know how it goes. Yes, my concern is when I introduce the film to the tank full of developer will it stay in the hanger. The flip top clip should work but I need to make it and see. I'll let you know.

Jim

[vinny]

Walnut!

[EdWorkman]

Thanks Jim and Gene- I almost sent my money for one of those plastic ones.
I did send an email to that outfit in the UK and have not received a reply, so perhaps they are OOB after all

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Walnut!

Vinny, I DID think about that! I have a lot of walnut as you know and I was thinking of a slotted walnut hanger so it is not out of the question. Just need to figure out the warp factor!

By the way i think I have figured out how to make it stable and rigid. I'm working from home today.......... well sort of so I can run with this. Hope to have more pic's soon.

Jim

[Gene McCluney]

What you have to consider, is how will your idea work, when using, oh lets say six, of the holders at one time in a tank. Will it be possible to manage the film so that it doesn't come out of the hanger under the forces of lifting the hanger and tilting for agitation, and will it allow the film to not contact each other when several hangers are used at once. 11x14 is a lot of wiggly film to manage.

[matthew blais]

Dear Mr. DIY,

I hope this works out for you bud...but I will make another suggestion and that is when you're done with your one prototype, take it to a screen shop and see what they can do to make it more rigid and precise.
They miter the corners and may know a way for the top bar to attach and remove.

Good luck!

p.s. I think the tank could be Walnut...just to keep things more Fitz like...

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Gene, these are all valid points that I understand. the tanks that I have look to have room for 3 of these hangers. I think that will be a manageable amount. It is what i have to work with now.
The hangers are about 11/16" wide or deep however you look at them. Let's call it 3/4" to be safe. My tanks are 3 1/2" wide so I may be able to get 4 hangers in there. I know form doing my 8x10's in hangers that I don't do any more than 4 at a time or it gets a bit unwieldy at times.
I put a threaded rod at the top that swivels back so that you can slide the film in the hanger. I'm going to put a nut on the inside and the outside to help with getting the right tension. I need to drill some holes in the sides and bottom and thread the rod some more for the additional bolts. It looks like it will work on paper as they say but the real test is when it gets in the water.

Jim

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I was thinking about making hangers using alligator clips to hold the corners of the film, but haven't bothered doing anything yet. Anybody ordered the steel Xray hangers?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Dear Mr. DIY,

I hope this works out for you bud...but I will make another suggestion and that is when you're done with your one prototype, take it to a screen shop and see what they can do to make it more rigid and precise.
They miter the corners and may know a way for the top bar to attach and remove.

Good luck!

p.s. I think the tank could be Walnut...just to keep things more Fitz like...

Matt, thanks for the original idea for this thing. It looks like it may work if I just bend the corners but I will check into the screen shop once I get this a little farther along. My idea for the top bar looks good and works well.
You KNOW I had an idea for the walnut type, but hey, I need to learn some metal skills!

Jim

[Gene McCluney]

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I was thinking about making hangers using alligator clips to hold the corners of the film, but haven't bothered doing anything yet. Anybody ordered the steel Xray hangers?

No need to order one of the X-ray stainless steel "clip" type holders to "test" it out. It WILL work, if you order one for the exact size film you have. They are available in 11x14. (for example) 11x14 X-ray film is same size as 11x14 camera film, only difference is rounded corners on Xray film. The film clips do not clip onto the corners so there is no issue there.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Okay, here is the update on the hangers. This design will work. I put a bar across the top with a threaded rod inside and drilled holes on the sides and bottom for draining. I put bolts on each side of the hangers on both the inside and outside of the top bar to be able to adjust the tension of the top. I put the hanger in the tank and agitated. The film stays put and even when I pull it out quickly it stays put. I now need to make a finished hanger and put it to use. My materials are the window screen frame, some 3/16" threaded rod & 4 nuts. I have to put a piece of small brass rod in the back side of the screen frame on the top to keep it in position. this will be a little more work in the dark than the Kodak hangers but the cost per hanger is about $ 4.00-$5.00 each. It takes some time to make them but so what. They are better than $43.00!

Jim

[CG]

If your idea is to use aluminum, you may find problems arise from the metal's reactivity.

Quoting from Kodak's Booklet: "Construction Materials For Photographic Processing Equipment"

"Aluminum ... Because Aluminum is high on the galvanic series, galvanic corrosion cells easily set up in the presence of other metals. Thus it is generally not acceptable for use when contact with photographic processing is to be made ... it is attacked by caustic solutions. In alkaline developers, enough sulfide is generated from the attack to produce objectionable stain and fog."

Aluminum receives uniformly bad marks for suitability for contact with processing chemicals.

[matthew blais]

Party pooper.....:)
Hell I just wanted to make sure Jim had something to tinker with...
..never thought about metal reaction.


If your idea is to use aluminum, you may find problems arise from the metal's reactivity.

Quoting from Kodak's Booklet: "Construction Materials For Photographic Processing Equipment"

"Aluminum ... Because Aluminum is high on the galvanic series, galvanic corrosion cells easily set up in the presence of other metals. Thus it is generally not acceptable for use when contact with photographic processing is to be made ... it is attacked by caustic solutions. In alkaline developers, enough sulfide is generated from the attack to produce objectionable stain and fog."

Aluminum receives uniformly bad marks for suitability for contact with processing chemicals.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Shit! Metal problems! The damn design would have worked great! Back to the drawing board. I guess I'll have to look into acrylic!

Jim

[EdWorkman]

Is the frame material bare, painted, or anodized?
I looked at my local bigbox and most of the stock appeared to be rolled to shape, painted. There was one section that appeared to be extruded and probably anodized.
Then I remembered the old screens I had at home- they appear to be painted and are miter-cut at the corners, exposing bare metal, but no gross corrosion after many years of outdoor exposure. And when did Kodak come up with that caveat- old alloys, beore the aluminum bandwagon for windows showed corrosion etc?
If covered, the aluminum will probly last for "awhile" without staining- then SURPRISE!, maybe.
But for $4 perhaps it's still cheap to use them 10 times and toss?
Didn't you say 15 cents a sheet ?
Before you throw in the towel, how about a test in some photo chemicals just to see[ easy for me to say ].
Good luck and thanks for your reports

[Turner Reich]

Jim look into some stainles steel channel for the frames.

[Turner Reich]

http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastic-channels/=1w59ws

Or some plastic ones, you can melt or cement, weld, the seams at the corners and they should last a long time. And they are cheap from McMaster Carr.

[Vaughn]

Or what about the metal strips that are used for shelving? They already have the holes (short slots actually) where one hooks in the shelf supports.

Vaughn

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100047070&N=500474+1679+90029&marketID=29&locStoreNum=8524

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Thanks for everyone's input. Since I have one prototype made I guess I could run a sheet of film through the process and see what happens. Nothing to loose there. Of the options offered so far I think the stuff that Andrew found and McMaster Carr has the most potential. The depth and width of the opening are important because you do not want to have the film flex and come out of the holder. Also drilling the drain holes takes a little time so I want to be sure I get the right size.
Vaughn, I did consider the shelve brackets but i think they were too thick or something like that. I'll take a closer look. They did have white painted screen frames at Lowe's and I could take the plain ones back and get the painted ones if this may help. These things are really not that hard to make and if I can figure out the best way to do it I think it would be a great thing for all of us. I will be sure to keep everyone posted. If this thread has inspired anyone else to give this a try please let me know of your progress.
I wish I still had my erector set (remember those?) because I'm sure I could have found the pieces I need in there. Thanks.

Jim

[EdWorkman]

Epoxy
Several years ago the spotwelds that held the light baffle into the cap of my SS developing cap gave way and I epoxied it back in place- been years and no trouble since, albeit that part is not submerged in chemicals.
Epoxy paint is used for darkroom sinks- I made a wooden sink with it once.
Hmmmmm. If the joints and holes are the only parts that get otherwise unprotected, perhaps touch-up of those points after fabrication will suffice., Or dipping- work fast!
Would the cost of epoxy dip make a hanger cost $48 ?

Jim- what are the depth and width of the successful slot that holds the film edge?
I'll do some experiments if I can get similar proportions at Home Despot.

And another potential thing [ if you are an electrical engineer that's a pun, I think] The brass rod and aluminum can react as in a battery and promote corrosion- we don't use aluminum conduits in concrete slabs [alkaline] anymore account the electrolysis that corrodes the steel reinforcing.
Epoxy coatings between the brass and aluminum would thwart it.

All this made me recall polishing a Cessna 150 almost 50 years ago with automoble polish to brighten the paint and the bare aluminum that had those corrosion bumps- that you don't see on window frames anymore.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Epoxy
Several years ago the spotwelds that held the light baffle into the cap of my SS developing cap gave way and I epoxied it back in place- been years and no trouble since, albeit that part is not submerged in chemicals.
Epoxy paint is used for darkroom sinks- I made a wooden sink with it once.
Hmmmmm. If the joints and holes are the only parts that get otherwise unprotected, perhaps touch-up of those points after fabrication will suffice., Or dipping- work fast!
Would the cost of epoxy dip make a hanger cost $48 ?

Jim- what are the depth and width of the successful slot that holds the film edge?
I'll do some experiments if I can get similar proportions at Home Despot.

And another potential thing [ if you are an electrical engineer that's a pun, I think] The brass rod and aluminum can react as in a battery and promote corrosion- we don't use aluminum conduits in concrete slabs [alkaline] anymore account the electrolysis that corrodes the steel reinforcing.
Epoxy coatings between the brass and aluminum would thwart it.

All this made me recall polishing a Cessna 150 almost 50 years ago with automoble polish to brighten the paint and the bare aluminum that had those corrosion bumps- that you don't see on window frames anymore.

Ed, I used some underwater epoxy to fasten a cut corner and it holds nicely. I didn't even think about the brass and aluminum thing, hell that is my brother's department he is the electrical guy.

The epoxy paint should solve the issue of raw metal I would think?

The size of the frame is 3/4" wide and the slot where the film goes in is 3/16" deep by 1/8" wide. My 8x10 Kodak hangers for comparison are 1/4" deep and about 3/16" wide. So this stuff is right on for size.

I do like Andrews idea of the stuff from McMaster Carr.

I'm going to try a hobby shop if I have time later today and look for some metal channel. I remember seeing some at one of my sources. As I recall it was brass. If I use all brass I wonder if the chemicals will eat it up?

Jim

[CG]

Party pooper.....:)
Hell I just wanted to make sure Jim had something to tinker with...
..never thought about metal reaction.
I wasn't thrilled to "poop" on someone's party, but I don't want to ignore an issue that might leave someone with substandard results and be difficult to diagnose.

[Gene McCluney]

Its very important to use materials that are "photographically" neutral. I can't recall any metal used in photo processing other than Stainless Steel, unless it was just in a final wash tank, where I think galvanized steel might have been used. Most, if not all other metals will react with the acids and alkalies in photo chemistry. Materials such as stoneware, hard rubber, wood tanks with asphalt coatings, glass, fiberglass, plastic were used over the years. Even very old metal tanks from 60-75 years ago were some sort of Stainless Steel.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

So can anyone here who is a chemist or understands these things better than I answer if brass is okay? I managed to find some brass channel the right size at the hardware store. If it may react then the plastic/acrylic will be the way to go. I think McMaster Carr will be the source and I think they have stainless also. Have to check cost.

Jim

[Nathan Potter]

Brass is an unlikely candidate for use with photographic chemicals. It is pretty chemically reactive. But get a small piece and subject it to the chemicals in question. It may only oxidize or pit but stay largely intact. Same with aluminum - try it. Aluminum will certainly etch in an alkaline solution but maybe slowly enough to get many cycles of use. The ultimate concern may not be the durability of the fixture you're making but the contaminants delivered to the bath and their effect on the image.

When we ran into metal compatibility issues in plating baths we painted the metal, often aluminum, with liquid polyimide then oven cured it to dry at about 200 degrees F. Liquid stuff is expensive, (maybe around $500 per quart) if you can get it, but you don't need much. Epoxy is a pretty good idea, especially good marine epoxy. It will however stain, which is a surface effect. Also in a cruder vein one can make a solution of various plastics; for instance PVC and Lexan. In fact try just using PVC pipe joint sealant (thinner type) and just paint on the aluminum and let cure thoroughly (say in the sun). Need to assess whether the adhesion of the coating to the aluminum or whatever metal you use is adequate.

I like the PVC idea but the chemical resistance to acetic acid will not be good - but maybe good enough.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Nathan, thank you for all of the great ideas and answers to my questions. I will try the PVC glue and see what it does. I do not use a stop bath with any of my film. I have always used water so maybe this will help.

Jim

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Well, I developed 4 negatives in my "prototype" hanger and they all came out great. I did 3 x-ray film negatives and one sheet of Efke -25 and they all look good. I will make two final hangers and put them to the test. I develop my negatives in a dilute Pyrocat-HD with pre-soak, water stop and non hardening fix. So far so good.

Jim

[emo supremo]

Likewise, I have no idea if this will work but aren't the canes in stained glass fixtures available in an inert material designed to withstand the effects of weather, acid rain etc. I don't know what they make that soft metal u-channel out of but maybe there is a grade that would meet this application?

[Gene McCluney]

Likewise, I have no idea if this will work but aren't the canes in stained glass fixtures available in an inert material designed to withstand the effects of weather, acid rain etc. I don't know what they make that soft metal u-channel out of but maybe there is a grade that would meet this application?

Historically, they are made of a lead alloy.

[Michael Roberts]

Hey Jim,
Still using your aluminum hangers? How are they holding up after 8 mos?

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Hey Jim,
Still using your aluminum hangers? How are they holding up after 8 mos?

Gave up on the aluminum. I've got a design idea but no time to do it right now.

Jim