Loading a Jobo 4x5 film reel

[E Thomson]

I'm using a 2509 4x5 film holder in a 2500 tank for the first time. I have a couple questions:

--I've been practicing with the thing in the light. I assumed I would be able to load it without the Sheetfilm Loader. Didn't want to spend the money. But this thing is a little diabolical; does anyone successfully load this freehand?

--I notice if all six slots are used, there is no way to keep adjacent sheets from scraping against each other as they load. The manner in which they do suggests potential for scratching. I'm using Tri-x; should I be concerned?

Thanks

[RDB Korn]

Eric,

I actually find it easier to load the 2509 reel without using the special loader. It takes a bit of practice doing it freehand, but becomes second nature after loading a few times. I tend to err on the side of caution, so only load 4 films (innermost and outermost positions).

Paul

[Vlad Soare]

Eric, I'm using a 2509n reel and have absolutely no problem loading 4x5 sheets without the special loader. I can load six sheets, no problem. It just takes a little practice.
What's a little more difficult than loading the sheets themselves is installing the black stoppers. But that's also easy to manage after you get the hang of it.

The only film I had trouble with was Rollei Infrared. That film has an annoying property, namely that 4x5 sheets are coated on the same base as the rollfilm version, which means that they are unacceptably thin and flimsy. Loading the film holders, or the Jobo reel, was such a nightmare that I ended up throwing all remaining unexposed sheets away and swearing never to buy that film in 4x5 again (rollfilm is fine, though).


I notice if all six slots are used, there is no way to keep adjacent sheets from scraping against each other as they load. The manner in which they do suggests potential for scratching. I'm using Tri-x; should I be concerned?
What do you mean? The sheets go into completely separated slots, they never touch each other, not one bit. You must be very careful not to insert two sheets into the same slot. This can happen very easily if you don't pay attention, and one of the sheets will be ruined. It's also very easy to mistakenly insert one side of the sheet into the correct slot, and the other side into an adjacent slot.
Fortunately, you'll usually feel that something is wrong, and you'll have the chance of removing the sheet and trying again.

[seabird]

I'm using a 2509 4x5 film holder in a 2500 tank for the first time. I have a couple questions:

--I've been practicing with the thing in the light. I assumed I would be able to load it without the Sheetfilm Loader. Didn't want to spend the money. But this thing is a little diabolical; does anyone successfully load this freehand?

I load freehand without problems (my Scottish ancestors would not let me spring for the loader either :-). I hold the reel so that the hole that the centre column goes through is horizontal. I then load the inner slot first, feeling for the start of the slots with a thumb on either side of the reel. I then "walk" the sheet film in under my thumbs until enough film is in place that it wont fall out. I then gently guide the rest of the sheet in pushing from the "bottom" edge. Sometimes a corner catches as I am pushing the sheet in, just pull it out a bit and gently wiggle it till it frees up.

Once loaded, run a finger across the exposed edges of the sheets. Even spacing will confirm that you haven't accidentally loaded two sheets in one slot. (obviously, this is done before snapping the wings into place :-)

Practice with exposed/dud film with the lights on, then do the same in the dark, before committing those award winning negatives to the process. Oh, and dont panic when the reel rolls onto the floor while you are reaching for the next sheet film holder :-)

Practice makes perfect. I now find it easier to load 4x5 FP4+ into my 2509n reels than to load FP4+ 120 roll film on my Paterson reels.


--I notice if all six slots are used, there is no way to keep adjacent sheets from scraping against each other as they load. The manner in which they do suggests potential for scratching. I'm using Tri-x; should I be concerned?

I tend to only load 4 sheets per reel using the inner and outer slots and leaving the middle slot empty - I understand Jobo also recommended this to ensure even development (not that I've noticed uneven development when doing six sheets per reel). I dont understand your concern about scratching, as at no stage do the sheets come into contact with each other if you're doing it right. Biggest potential problem is fingerprints, but cotton gloves can solve this.

Good luck!

[Joanna Carter]

I have a loader, as part of a job lot of secondhand gear I picked up. I have tried to use it but found that it is more trouble thanit is worth. Yes, you have to be careful, and as others have said, practise in the light, but it is not at all difficult, once you have made a few mistakes :D The only mistake I made on my first "production" run was to insert one edge of the middle sheet into the inner slot; the result was a slight cyan tint to a very small part of the edge of the sheet - nothing that couldn't be fixed in Photoshop.

[Vlad Soare]

I understand Jobo also recommended this to ensure even development (not that I've noticed uneven development when doing six sheets per reel)
That was for the older 2509 reels.
The two black plastic caps that come with 2509n reels are the solution to this problem. 2509n reels can develop six sheets perfectly if you use those wings. The only times I got uneven development was either when I didn't use them, or when I rotated the tank one way only. I've learned my lesson and now use them every time, and I also rotate the tank both ways. Perfect results every time, even with six sheets.

If your hands are clean, fingerprints are nothing to worry about. The developer is basic and will dissolve any traces of finger grease.

[dazedgonebye]

I load freehand too. I'm a newbie at this and have only developed about 20 sheets...still, last time I did it, it went off without a hitch.
I only load 4 sheets per roll because 6 always seems to give me trouble.
The black pieces are the hardest part.

Just practice many times in the changing bags before you give it a go with actual film.

[csant]

Loading freehanded here too. It was a bit puzzling the first time, but I very quickly got how to do it. Also inserting the black wings was tricky the first time only, until I understood that you can rather easily snap them into position by placing first one end, and then gently pushing the other end. Only the very first time I thought "this is never gonna work" for a moment - until everything snapped into place. :)

[Ole Tjugen]

And another freehandloader here. Once I figured out where the wings are supposed to fit, it was easy. I use two fingers on the onside, through the reel, to hold them in place, and then snap them into place with both thumbs. The only place where you could possibly poke two fingers through a loaded reel is exactly where the wings should go.

[Paul Bujak]

Guess I'm a throwback or lazy or something, but I use the loader. For the first sheet, rotate the reel, count three clicks and insert film. Rotate, count three and insert the next sheet. Pretty easy.

But... I agree with everybody that installing the black wing-plates is a real pain. Maybe I need to diet or something so my fingers are smaller. I've used Jobo for years but still haven't perfected a technique for those *%#$*@ plates. :o

Paul

[tgtaylor]

The following is from a posting I made on this question at the end of '07:

FWIW, I routinely process 6 sheets at a tme by inversion with the 2509-N reel without any problem at all. Load the sheets into the slot from the inside slot (from the reel) out with the emulsion side facing inwards towards the reel. The only thing that you need to be careful of is to be sure that both sides of the 2d sheet is in the second slot. Jobo puts a small plastic nipple on each side of the reel at the 2d slot. After you have loaded the 2d sheet, run you finger lightly around both sides of the sheet. If it's loaded correctly you will feel the nipple just outward (towards you) from the sheet. Also there is a plastic nipple at the end position of each sheet on the reel to keep the sheet in place. Lightly tug each sheet to see that it properly placed. Also, run you finger lightly along the edges of the sheets. There should be a slight but even space between the sheets. To remove each sheet, just lightly lift the edge over this nipple and slide it straight out.

Thomas

[E Thomson]

Thanks for all the help! I must admit, I used to feel I had higher-than-average dexterity and mechanical skills until I began associating with dark-room workers.

Okay, now I know it's possible, I will master free-hand-loading.

[My first post should have been clearer: I'm using the 2509n with the holders]

Vlad, Seabird: my concern about film scratching is this. If I load some practice sheets in the light, using all three slots per side, I can watch the leading edge of sheet #2 and #3 scrape the previous sheet all the way down the middle until seating. The tendency for the sheet to curve out while loading makes this happen. Then, when the sheets seat at the stops, they flatten out and don't touch. If I skip the middle slot, there is enough clearance that the sheets never touch. (I'm using some exposed Ilford for practice)

I have to admit, writing this without the reel in front of me, I'm now doubting what I thought I was seeing (and hearing). I'll report back. Meantime I thank you (and my Scottish forebears also thank you) for preventing yet another painful Jobo purchase.

[E Thomson]

I've used Jobo for years but still haven't perfected a technique for those *%#$*@ plates. :o

Paul

Paul, you may not have had the benefit of Jobo's (miniscule) instruction sheet that came with my 2509n. csant described it accurately above. The instruction sheet shows placing the middle of the holder under its retaining pin in the initial motion, then pressing down the other side until it clicks in place. Not trying what may be more intuitive, i.e. aligning the holder first, then snapping both top and bottom into place.

[Paul Kierstead]

Thanks for all the help! I must admit, I used to feel I had higher-than-average dexterity and mechanical skills until I began associating with dark-room workers.


Well, really, the thing in darkroom work is actually understanding what your touch senses are telling you (and sometimes that means stopping and thinking about what you are touching) and then trusting them. It isn't really manual dexterity, though that helps. More specifically, it is most certainly not hand-eye coordination :)

[Paul Bujak]

Well, I just spent the last five minutes playing with a reel and a couple of plates. I think that in the dark, I was mistaking one of the two little, round nipples between the middle and outside slots for the half-round pin that the center of the plate snaps over. Those two nipples support the back of the plate and keep it from rocking.

I didn't have any instructions as I got the reels and plates used from the bins in Midwest Photo's basement and tried to figure it out for myself. In the darkroom, thick fingers and lack of vision makes this photog easily confused. Thanks to all of you for this discussion and my enlightenment. :)

[seabird]

my concern about film scratching is this. If I load some practice sheets in the light, using all three slots per side, I can watch the leading edge of sheet #2 and #3 scrape the previous sheet all the way down the middle until seating. The tendency for the sheet to curve out while loading makes this happen. Then, when the sheets seat at the stops, they flatten out and don't touch. If I skip the middle slot, there is enough clearance that the sheets never touch. (I'm using some exposed Ilford for practice)


You say the film tends to curve outwards. Are you loading the inner slot first, middle slot second, and then outer slot last? If the film is curving outwards on loading, then loading the inside slot first and outside slot last should avoid any contact shouldn't it?

I generally only load 4 sheets per reel but on occasion have done 6/reel and not noticed problems with scratches - this is with FP4+ and I appreciate that some other emulsions may be more delicate.

Best luck.

[E Thomson]

Thanks, seabird. Reading your reply I slapped head said "D'oh". And indeed the order you recommend is also what Jobo recommends. But when I try that I still get a tendency for an edge to scrape along the middle of a sheet. In this case it is the leading stationary edge of the last-loaded sheet curving out enough to contact the middle of the next sheet as it slides in.

It's a near thing though. It depends on how you're holding the sheet and other small issues of technique. I do wonder whether the Loader maintains an outward curve on the sheet it's loading, which would solve any problem.

Since no one seems to have a problem it is perhaps not an issue. Certainly four sheets rather than six will keep it from happening. I find that if I load the reel horizontally, with the sheet parallel to the table, the sheet tends to remain flat and it contacts the previous sheet's curve. If I developed a technique for loading perpendicular to the table, I would tend to hold the sheet in such a way as to bend it into a curve that matches that of the previous sheet.

So, any contact of the sort I'm seeing would depend on how you hold the sheets.