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Songyun
11-May-2009, 16:45
Say if i want to shoot something over 120 degree of view. What are my choices?
Hypergon? pin hole? fish-eye lens (as in 35mm format) or noblex ?
What are the pro and cons of these options?
I come up this question after I saw a hypergon sold (very expensive) recently on ebay.

Gene McCluney
11-May-2009, 18:58
You have to tell us what film size you want to shoot before any lens can be recommended.

Songyun
11-May-2009, 19:32
I don't think I would ever need to shoot anything that wide. I just try to understand the difference between these options, especially try to understand what makes hypergon so special (in the photographing aspect).

Bill_1856
11-May-2009, 19:40
Photoshop.

Jeff Keller
11-May-2009, 21:49
There isn't much demand for that wide of coverage in part because the angular distortion of a rectilinear lens is often very obvious. (I once read that the fish-eye lenses were sometimes used for atmospheric recording because they don't have the angular-distortion). So besides being difficult to build not many are sold. Rarity can drive the price up high of what started as a cheap lens.

One of the cheapest ways to get a very wide angle is to use what is sort of a conical mirror. The camera is typically pointed straight up giving a 360 degree view around the camera but a "hole" in the sky.

Would someone who wants camera movements to avoid converging lines, be happy with obvious wide ange distortion?

Jeff Keller

Ole Tjugen
11-May-2009, 22:32
The Hypergon is the widest rectilinear lens ever made. Anything wider is a fisheye, which gives obviously curved lines. The advantage of the Hypergon is that it shows straight lines as straight lines - but the cos^4 light falloff gets terrible, which is why it had the "propeller" graded filter to even out the exposure. The advantage of fisheye lenses ever since the first Hill's "Sky Lens" is that it has no light falloff whatsoever, since it gives an "equal area" projection where the same angular area of the sky fills the same film area over the whole image circle.

Kirk Fry
11-May-2009, 23:10
There are computer programs that will take fish eye images and straighten them out for you. The program needs to know the exact lens you are using and does not work on LF images (maybe some do, but the universe of fish eye lens for 8X10 is pretty small). See for example Fisheye-Hemi Photoshop plug-ins.
KFry

Songyun
12-May-2009, 08:27
The Hypergon is the widest rectilinear lens ever made. Anything wider is a fisheye, which gives obviously curved lines. The advantage of the Hypergon is that it shows straight lines as straight lines - but the cos^4 light falloff gets terrible, which is why it had the "propeller" graded filter to even out the exposure. The advantage of fisheye lenses ever since the first Hill's "Sky Lens" is that it has no light falloff whatsoever, since it gives an "equal area" projection where the same angular area of the sky fills the same film area over the whole image circle.

Regarding the cos ^4 light fall off, is it possible to use modern center filter to correct the light fall off?
I guess that those rotation lens camera won't get straight line either, how about pin holes? I mean the hypergon use very small aperture, how does it compare with pin hole ?

Jim Noel
12-May-2009, 09:06
a well-made pinhole is your answer. Either a laser drilled, or homemade pinhole, which has been carefully sanded until the hole is round, and as thin as possible, then blackened, will perform as well as a laser drilled hole.
This will save you several thousand dollars if you compare it with the price of the hypergon.
there are several sources of information concerning the best size for pinhole versus focal length. these sources very and the method by which they compute hole size. just choose one table such as the one by Eric Renner and stick with it. It doesn't take much practice to make a very, very good pinhole.

Bruce Watson
12-May-2009, 10:17
A 120 degree angle of view for 5x4 film gives you a focal length of about 35mm if we are talking about the long dimension (about 4.75 inches of image) of the film. That's an incredibly short lens for 5x4. I've never heard of any lens that short that would cover the format. Doesn't mean they aren't out there however. It does seem like this would be pushing what even a bag bellows can handle though. Unless you can commission a retrofocus design ;-)

Songyun
12-May-2009, 11:23
a well-made pinhole is your answer. Either a laser drilled, or homemade pinhole, which has been carefully sanded until the hole is round, and as thin as possible, then blackened, will perform as well as a laser drilled hole.
This will save you several thousand dollars if you compare it with the price of the hypergon.
there are several sources of information concerning the best size for pinhole versus focal length. these sources very and the method by which they compute hole size. just choose one table such as the one by Eric Renner and stick with it. It doesn't take much practice to make a very, very good pinhole.

Just have a quick question regarding pin holes, does pin hole has fall off similar to cos^4?

Dan Fromm
12-May-2009, 12:25
yes.

Ole Tjugen
12-May-2009, 12:25
Just have a quick question regarding pin holes, does pin hole has fall off similar to cos^4?

Quick answer: Yes.

Ole Tjugen
12-May-2009, 12:27
My shortest LF lens is a 47mm Super Angulon XL. It's extremely wide on 4x5"...

Songyun
12-May-2009, 12:29
Quick answer: Yes.

So, what is the advantage of hypergon over pin holes?
And is it possible to adapt modern center filter for pin hole? :D

Songyun
12-May-2009, 12:31
I don't shoot anything wider than 75mm on 45. I just try to understand why ppl would like to pay $$$$$ for hypergon. (as a photography lens)

Ole Tjugen
12-May-2009, 12:37
The Hypergon is an anastigmat - practically free of astigmatism all the way to the edge. A pinhole needs to be absolutely perfect and made of a theoretical perfectly thin material to get any ligkt at all that far out - most will start vignetting long before that. Also since the distance from lens/pinhole to film plane varies a lot over such a wide field, field curvature plays a very important role in the maximum resolution.

Yes you can use a center filter with a pinhole - but the filter must be pefectly clean since the hole is similar in size to a very small speck of dust; and if you use a filter - why not use a lens?

Maris Rusis
12-May-2009, 17:45
I use an old Marexar Ultrawider fish-eye converter lens (bought new for $25 in 1972) on a variety of large format lenses. With the Marexar plus a 135mm on 4x5 I get a 140 degree field of view
with somewhat blurry edges. Modern afocal fish-eye or wide converter lenses may do better.

Hugo Zhang
12-May-2009, 19:21
I don't shoot anything wider than 75mm on 45. I just try to understand why ppl would like to pay $$$$$ for hypergon. (as a photography lens)

I think that 150mm Hypergon was bought for a custom made ULF camera. :) It was claimed to cover 20x24, if I remember correctly.

Songyun
12-May-2009, 22:58
I think that 150mm Hypergon was bought for a custom made ULF camera. :) It was claimed to cover 20x24, if I remember correctly.

well, special 2024 for hypergon 150 should be easily handle by one person

Emmanuel BIGLER
13-May-2009, 06:08
And is it possible to adapt modern center filter for pin hole?

Yes, as Dan Fromm would say, but since I am not Dan Fromm, I dare to add some explanations :
The Center Filter (CF) is designed to be located at a certain distance from the entrance pupil of the wide-angle (WA) lens for which it was designed. The matching between CFs and WA lenses is not very tight, otherwise independant manufacturers like heliopan would have to stock all kinds of Cfs for different lens makes ! Basically there are two kinds of Cfs : those which compensate for 100-105° lenses and those designed for 110-120°. I am not sure that Heliopan still manufactures the 110-120° CFs but Rodenstock & Schneider still have them on catalogue.
So if you want to correct your pinhole from the cos^4 theta fall-off effect, you can try any CF, preferably the 110-120° model (if your pinhole is really well designed with no "mechanical vignetting") and place it in front of your pinhole a the same distance as the entrance pupil of the lens for which it was designed. If your pinhole covers only 90°, no problem take a 100° Cf and place it at the right distance ahead of the pinhole, not just againts it !
The location of the entrance pupil is given in Schneider's technical data files available on-line. (Not sure about Rodenstock, to be checked)
Modern large format WA lenses have less fall-of than cos^4, may be cos^3 @ f/22, but any CF will be better than nothing for somebody who cannot live with the natural fall-off in a 120°-wide pinhole image !

The real problem is that a CF is an expensive piece of glass ! not as expensive as a 35 mm apo-grandagon lens (does cover 120° in diagonal but does not cover 4x5 at all) but substantially more expensive than a home-made pinhole.

The ultimate Do-It-Yourself project would involve a carefully crafted pinhole plus a carefully crafted home-made compensating-(rotating) / flipping)-fan, inspired by the beloved Goerz Hypergon model !

Steve M Hostetter
13-May-2009, 07:26
widest practicle lens I've found for an 8x10 is the Grandagon 115mm 6.8 with the use of a center filter.. You can see some photos taken by this combo in the thread "post your churches"... As long as the camera is kept perfectly level there is very limited wide angle distortion..

Songyun
13-May-2009, 13:15
BTW, did anyone ever see a 200mm hypergon? It is in the catalog, but I have never seen a photo of that lens.

Dan Fromm
13-May-2009, 13:33
Songyun, start saving your large monetary units. One of my friends has a 44/5.6 Super Aviogon. He may be dying -- long story, the odds are against his surviving much longer -- and after he dies his widow will likely offer the lens for sale. According to papers on the treatment he's receiving, P(he's alive this time next year) < 0.5. P(he survives 5 years) = 0.05.

See http://www.luciolepri.it/lc2/marcocavina/articoli_fotografici/Hypergon_Topogon_Biogon_Hologon/00_pag.htm for more information about extreme wide angle lenses.

Look here http://www.din.or.jp/~yamato-c/kako.html for a picture of a 44/5.6 SA fitted to a 4x5 Speed Graphic.

Songyun
13-May-2009, 20:05
Songyun, start saving your large monetary units. One of my friends has a 44/5.6 Super Aviogon. He may be dying -- long story, the odds are against his surviving much longer -- and after he dies his widow will likely offer the lens for sale. According to papers on the treatment he's receiving, P(he's alive this time next year) < 0.5. P(he survives 5 years) = 0.05.

See http://www.luciolepri.it/lc2/marcocavina/articoli_fotografici/Hypergon_Topogon_Biogon_Hologon/00_pag.htm for more information about extreme wide angle lenses.

Look here http://www.din.or.jp/~yamato-c/kako.html for a picture of a 44/5.6 SA fitted to a 4x5 Speed Graphic.

I don't think I am a super wide guy. I am just curious about those super wide lens.

VictoriaPerelet
13-May-2009, 21:21
For modern extremists - 90mm SA XL covers(barely) 8x10. Here's test paper negative on Sinar P2 8x10:

http://victoriasphoto.com/Notes/90mm_SA_8x10.jpg

No center filter. Do not remember aperture, but close to wide open, no flash either.

Steve M Hostetter
14-May-2009, 06:07
Wisner has a Hypergon ,,, 90mm f22-f45

Steve M Hostetter
14-May-2009, 06:10
For modern extremists - 90mm SA XL covers(barely) 8x10. Here's test paper negative on Sinar P2 8x10:

http://victoriasphoto.com/Notes/90mm_SA_8x10.jpg

No center filter. Do not remember aperture, but close to wide open, no flash either.

Victoria,,, I thought the 90mm 5.6XL would cover if focused on close subject... I guess the 110mm 5.6 XL also covers 810

Steve M Hostetter
14-May-2009, 07:07
sorry I didn't answer your question the way you wanted me to ... I thought you wanted to know your 120 degree options..

John Brady
14-May-2009, 07:34
Sorry if this is getting off the original question. These are two more examples of the 90xl on 8x10. Stopped down it just misses the corners. Nothing a little corner cloning can't fix.

Both images shot with ebony slw 810 and velvia 50 at f45. The first is without center filter 1 sec. The second is with center filter at 2 sec.
www.gladesgallery.com

Don Hutton
14-May-2009, 07:41
Sorry if this is getting off the original question. These are two more examples of the 90xl on 8x10. Stopped down it just misses the corners. Nothing a little corner cloning can't fix.

Both images shot with ebony slw 810 and velvia 50 at f45. The first is without center filter 1 sec. The second is with center filter at 2 sec.
www.gladesgallery.com
Those are wild!

John Schneider
14-May-2009, 08:29
Both images shot with ebony slw 810 and velvia 50 at f45. The first is without center filter 1 sec. The second is with center filter at 2 sec.
www.gladesgallery.com

John, those ARE wild images. Do you recall what the lens-to-subject distance was?

John Brady
14-May-2009, 08:48
Thanks John and Don! You have to get up close and personal when shooting with this set up. I think I was about 6 feet from the first image and about 3 feet from the start of the second.

Richard Martel
14-May-2009, 09:52
Hi John,

Great photos..I hope to get over to your gallery soon.

Regards, Richard
Florida Keys

benrains
15-May-2009, 14:01
I'll be damned if a half-dozen Goerz Hypergons haven't shown up on eBay since they were mentioned in this thread.