Wollensak lenses - mounting in Betax?

[Harley Goldman]

Can a Wolly barrel lens or a Wolly mounted in a studio shutter be easily mounted in a Betax? Something like a Verito lens is what I am asking about and the emphasis is on easily done.

If so, would it just be a matter of unscrewing the elements and screwing them into a shutter?

[Jim Noel]

he can be done, but not very easily. The problem is that the distance between elements will very likely be different when shifting from a studio shutter or a barrel mount to any shutter including a Betax. There is also a consideration of finding a shutter with the same diameter and screw pitch as the earlier mount.

[Mark Sawyer]

Not easily done at all. The Studio Shutter has male threads and the Betax has female threads, so the barrels are completely different.

[Toyon]

Studio shutters can be fixed. They are not bad, particularly if you practice timing shutter speeds. You can get 1/4 second speeds pretty easily. Handy with 25 iso film.

[Carsten Wolff]

Really depends on the lens. Although I have 2 Wollensak barrel lenses which went straight (right cell spacing and all) into respective shutters: A 162mm Enlarging Raptar which fit straight onto a Betax #3 and a 15"/f5.6 Wolly Tele which matched an Alphax #4. Bute.g. the Verito may well be unsuitable: I once had a 209mm Raptar, a 10" Conley Ser. V (= Wolly Ser. I) and another Wolly which didn't fit any Alphax/Betax, or Rapax shutters. (S.K. Grimes put the Conley in the end into an Alphax #3 for me). Mark and Toyon are both right though: Studio shutters are different animals than Alphax/Betax, but can be repaired (I can recommend e.g. Flutots in Whittier, CA). Other options always include the Packard, hat, lenscap.....

[wfwhitaker]

Which Verito are you asking about? Some are just too big. But the smaller ones can be transplanted. My 8 3/4" Verito cells were a direct fit to an Ilex #4 shutter. That's "easily done". But not every set of cells may be the same and there's no guarantee it would work for your particular lens. As Mark suggests, if yours is in a Studio shutter, the barrels may need to be adapted to fit a different shutter. One advantage of the Ilex over a Betax is that the Ilex is a sync shutter. Larger Verito's such as the 9" or the 11 1/2" may be able to be mated to a large Compound, but it would be some work. Smaller Verito's can be mated to shutters, but again it depends on the particular lens and the shutter. And it may require some machine work. As mentioned above, Studio shutters can be cleaned and adjusted to work smoothly. That may be the simplest route.

[Harley Goldman]

At the moment, I don't have a Verito. I have a spare Betax #4 and was wondering if I could get a Verito in a barrel or studio shutter that would fit in the Betax 4. I ran across an old Verito in a bad shutter pre-dating the Betax, but I have been told that one will not fit without significant machining and expense.

[Jim Galli]

Even the 8 3/4" Verito had a #5 when it was in Betax form. Perhaps a 7 1/4"? Kind of a longshot trying to match any old lens to any old shutter. Nothing was standardized at that time period. You're just going to have to rob a bank and buy a modern Cooke / Pinkham.

[Jan Pedersen]

I had my only Verito, an 8 3/4 mounted in a # 4 Compound with full speed f4 i don't think the opening in #4 Betax is large enough for full speed on the 8 3/4 but a 7 1/4 as Jim suggest should be fine.

[Joe Smigiel]

I had an 8.75" Verito mounted in a Betax #5 and so was very surprised to see the same focal length Verito mounted in a #4 Betax on ebay several months ago.

[Harley Goldman]

Will a Betax #5 fit in a Technika board? I use a Chamonix and need something that will fit that camera.

[Joe Smigiel]

I had an 8.75" Verito mounted in a Betax #5 and so was very surprised to see the same focal length Verito mounted in a #4 Betax on ebay several months ago.

There's an 8 3/4" Verito in a Betax #4 listed on ebay at the moment. Check item 140319586775 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140319586775&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123).

[Toyon]

That lens has been posted for months. I don't know how the seller can afford to keep recycling it.

[Carsten Wolff]

To Haley; I've managed to squeeze an Alphax #4 into a Technika board by enlarging a Copal #3 opening by about 2mm, with about 4mm to spare till it hits the inner edge of the lens board's registration circle, or what you want to call it, so I don't like your chances fitting a #5 in.

[jnantz]

seth b at cameraeccentric used to have veritos in betax shutters ...

[Jan Pedersen]

It is possible to fit an Alphax # 5 on a Technika size board but it will take some modiications. I have an Alphax # 5 with a Dallmeyer Pentac mounted on a home made Alloy board. The board is about 3 times thicker than a standard board, this so the shutter is far enough away from the front standard to work the release lever.
Can be done with a little bit of work.

[wfwhitaker]

Jan brought up a good point. You can get creative with lensboards. I've done the same thing to mount a 405mm Kodak Portrait lens to a camera with boards that were technically too small. Just make the board thick enough that the mounting flange overhangs the lensboard retaining hardware.

Harley, since you're using a Chamonix, you're probably in better shape to do this because the Chamonix uses the flip-down tabs unlike most cameras which use a sliding bar to hold the lensboard. There's less interference to worry with and the little knurled wheels to operate the tabs can be reached from above and slightly behind the camera. As long as the barrel of the lens in question will fit through the hole in the front standard, you're OK. An overlying lensboard can be "sistered" to a standard lensboard. The former can be as large as the frame of the front standard if need be. You may need to cut some reliefs, but that's minor. Except for boring a large hole in the Technika board, the work can be done with basic tools. You'll end up with a much larger lensboard. And the Chamonix will probably be able to hold just about any lens you can put on it.

[Jim Graves]

There's an 8 3/4" Verito in a Betax #4 listed on ebay at the moment. Check item 140319586775 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140319586775&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123).

In response to a messaged question, the seller confirmed that the lens is mounted in a Betax #4 ... they also confirmed that the maximum shutter light opening is 1 3/4" (the Betax #5 is 2 1/4") ... which means the maximum aperture you can get from the Verito mounted in this shutter is f-5 ... not the f-4 that is shown on the shutter aperture scale. Still a nice amount of diffusion but not as much as was originally intended.

Early on, Wollensak also did this with the 6.5" Verito ... in the 1916 catalog it is advertised in a #2 shutter with a maximum aperture of f-4 and also in a #1 shutter with a maximum aperture of f-6. (link) (http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/wollensak_1.html)

[Mark Sawyer]

The thing is, Jim, that you measure the maximum aperture through the front element, which is a positive (magnifying) element on the Verito. So the opening will appear, and effectively be, larger. I'm not sure what the maximum aperture in a Betax #4 might be, but it will be faster than f/5. Whether it gets to f/4, I don't know...

These lenses are tricky little things...

[Jim Graves]

Hmm ... thanks Mark ... how right you are ... I need to go do some more reading.

I have the Verito 8 3/4" in a Studio No.3 shutter which has a light opening of 2 15/16" ... at f-4 on the original aperture scale the iris is wide open to 2 15/16".

The Betax 5 has only a 2 1/4" light opening but apparently still provides f-4 at maximum iris opening [per Wollensak]. If I adjust my Studio shutter iris opening to 2 1/4", the Studio scale reads f-6.

The Betax 4 has only a 1 3/4" light opening. If I adjust my Studio shutter iris to 1 3/4" (the Betax 4 max.) I get ~f-9 on the Studio scale.

The full length of my Verito is ~ 4 1/4" ... the Studio shutter iris is about 2/1/8" inches from the front element. So to put the same lens on a smaller shutter do they move the iris distance from the magnifying front lens element or actually change the element(s)?

[Mark Sawyer]

Are the different shutters just scaled for different focal length lenses?

"The Betax 5 has only a 2 1/4" light opening but apparently still provides f-4 at maximum iris opening [per Wollensak]. If I adjust my Studio shutter iris opening to 2 1/4", the Studio scale reads f-6."

Discarding the front element magnification factor, a 2 1/4" opening would be f/4 on a 9" lens. A 2 1/4" opening would be f/6 on a 13.5" lens.

I'm confused, Jim... are you able to put the same Verito elements into a Betax 5, a Betax 4, and a Studio Shutter? The Betaxes should have very different sized female threads, and the Studio Shutter should have male threads...

[Jim Graves]

Mark ... I only have the Verito in a Studio 3 ... I also have a Betax 5 on a different lens ... and you're right, they do not interchange directly. I'm getting the Betax 4 & 5 measurements from the Wollensak catalog and measuring one I have and from the vendor of the Verito in the Betax 4.

Wollensak did, however, originally offer the 8 3/4" Verito in a barrel, a Studio 3, or a Betax 5 in their catalogs. And now the one in a Betax 4 has turned up as noted earlier in the this thread. I've always assumed there were some small threading or spacer issues with a lens like this in 3(4) different incarnations ... I guess I never realized you could have such a large shutter aperture range on a lens and still maintain the original f-stop maximum also.

I think I need to take apart some old lenses and do some more reading!

[Mark Sawyer]

I'm guessing your different shutters were made for different focal length lenses, so the aperture sizes are different. And I forgot to mention something from one of your earlier posts:



The full length of my Verito is ~ 4 1/4" ... the Studio shutter iris is about 2/1/8" inches from the front element. So to put the same lens on a smaller shutter do they move the iris distance from the magnifying front lens element or actually change the element(s)?


If you move the iris from its correct position, it affects field curvature and coma. My guess is that Wollensak used the same elements in all their 8 3/4" Veritos, and made barrels to match each shutter to keep the correct spacing.

And btw, I just checked my 8 3/4" f/4 in its original factory barrel, and measuring very carefully, it's really f/4.4. I wonder if Wollensak did some "creative rounding"?

[Jim Graves]

Mark ... I think I have too many lenses ... I went back and rechecked my numbers ... I had measured my 3 different Veritos ... the 8 3/4", 11 1/2", and 14 1/2" ... when I wrote the post above I mistakenly entered the measurements from the 11 1/2" Verito in the Studiio 3 shutter instead of the ones for the 8 3/4" Verito in Studio 1 shutter.

The correct measurements for the 8 3/4" are ... 2 1/16" for the light opening and 3" for the total length. When I measured the iris at 1 3/4" (the light opening on a Betax 4) the indicated f-stop on the Studio 1 scale was just below an f-5 ... so Wollensak probably was rounding #s creatively ... and with the correct numbers entered that makes a lot more sense. As a famous American once said ......"Doh!"

[Mark Sawyer]

Mark ... I think I have too many lenses ...

There's just no such thing as "too many lenses," Jim.

[Jim Graves]

Mark ... Can you edit that post FROM:
There's just no such thing as "too many lenses, Jim" ... TO ...
"There's just no such thing as too many lenses ... JO" ... (my wife's name is Jo ... I'd like to show it to her ... and can you include a photograph of your hand-built lens display case too? )

[mercadov]

If I'm reading this thread correctly, it seems that a Betax #4 may or may not fit a Wolly Verito 8 3/4 and that it also may not cover f4 wide open. I recently purchased a Wolly Verito in a barrel (it's in the mail) with the intentions of setting it up with a Pacemaker. Currently there is a Betax #4 available which seems to have a reasonable price tag, but at the same time it has not sold. Maybe I'm better off using the focal shutter.

[goamules]

I'd use the focal plane shutter and keep it as a barrel. Why add more weight?

[Ernest Purdum]

Regarding the problem of lenses large for the lensboard. One time I encountered this lprolem with a 13" f5.6 Cooke. I wound up making a lensboard from 1/4" aluminum alloy and threading it to fit the lens directly, no flange or nut.