Rollholders on 6 x 9 technical and field cameras

[Brian Wallen]

I've got a Horseman VH, which is an affordable compact camera with full movements for someone willing to limit himself to 120 rollfilm. Horseman even provided some attractive accessories that make it more flexible than just a bellows folder with a groundglass back. A Horseman Rotary Back attempts to reduce the tedium of physically swapping out the conventional GG focusing panel and rollholders with a rotating film gate and GG port. Unfortunately, it does this at the cost of adding 25mm of extension to a body design that already is only minimially friendly to short-focus lenses. On a flat board (no recessed boards are available), without the Rotary Back, the shortest lens the VH can focus using the focusing rack is 65mm--not very impressive when shooting 6 x 7 frames. With the Rotary Back, the limit is more like 90-100mm lenses.

A workaround for this problem with 4 x 5 bodies and 120 rollholders is to slip the rollholder under the focusing frame, just as you would a sheetfilm holder, but the 4 x 5 frame 120 holders have a relatively wide flange which centers knobs and other paraphenalia in the center of the frame so they don't get hung up on the Graflok springs. The 6 x 9 rollholders can't avoid this and require the GG focusing frame to be removed so that Graflok clamps can attach the rollholder.

Recently I noticed that Toyo makes a thin-bodied 6 x 9 rollholder that might slide under the focusing frame for international G backs. I do see some protrusions on this design that might cause problems. I am particularly interested in hearing about attempts to mount this back on Graphic 23 or Horseman VH/VH-R/ER-1 models.

Here are images of the Toyo rollholder; this one is 6 x 9, but I think there were also other frame sizes.

http://www.prairienet.org/b-wallen/BN_Photo/LFN/rh6x9_1comp.JPG

[Oren Grad]

Brian - I have one of the Toyo 2x3/6x9 holders. (It was also made in a 2x3/6x7 version as well as 4x5/6x9 and 4x5/6x7 versions.)

It can be used with the VH/VH-R the same way as the Horseman rollholders - using the Graflok sliders after removing the GG. It can't be used as a slide-in holder - not even close. It's both too wide and too thick, by a fair margin. I measure 38mm thick at the film gate.

I might add, the Toyo holder, while much bulkier than the Horseman holders, does feel somewhat better-made. The film path is certainly flatter, because the spools sit out on the ends of the holder, not behind the film gate as in the more compact Horseman holders. If you like printing your negatives full-frame with border, though, you might not like the Toyo - its guiderails have odd gaps in them that mess up the border of the image area.

If you want a modern slide-in rollholder for the VH/VH-R, you have one choice - the Linhof 2x3/6x7 Rapid Rollex (not Super Rollex). I have one of those as well. Strictly speaking, I believe it was designed for the 2x3 Technika, or at least for some Linhof camera; its locking ridges don't match the groove on the Horseman back. There may also be a modest T-distance discrepancy (this may be true with the Toyo holders as well.) But while it doesn't lock into place, I've found that it is usable, without light leaks.

[amoebahyda]

I use this one, one for all five formats, i.e. 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, 6x9 and 6x12cm...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/amoebahydra/Photo%20Equipment/Zoomback1.jpg

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm100/amoebahydra/Photo%20Equipment/Zoomback2.jpg

[Bob Salomon]

"Recently I noticed that Toyo makes a thin-bodied 6 x 9 rollholder that might slide under the focusing frame for international G backs. I do see some protrusions on this design that might cause problems. I am particularly interested in hearing about attempts to mount this back on Graphic 23 or Horseman VH/VH-R/ER-1 models."

Linhof makes a 6x7cm Rapid Rollex slip-in roll film holder in sizes for 6x9 and 4x5 cameras. The 6x9 one will fit your camera.

[Gene McCluney]

Calumet also markets universal roll-film holders that will slide in under the ground glass on ANY 4x5 camera. They show them in 6x12, 6x9 and 6x7 sizes. They have dark-slides, so they can be removed between shots.

[Bob Salomon]

"Recently I noticed that Toyo makes a thin-bodied 6 x 9 rollholder that might slide under the focusing frame for international G backs. I do see some protrusions on this design that might cause problems. I am particularly interested in hearing about attempts to mount this back on Graphic 23 or Horseman VH/VH-R/ER-1 models."

Linhof makes a 6x7cm Rapid Rollex slip-in roll film holder in sizes for 6x9 and 4x5 cameras. The 6x9 one will fit your camera.

Oops,
the 45 one will fit your camera. Back to my original post thanks to Oren. The 69 version will fit your camera.

[Oren Grad]

Folks, Brian is trying to mount rollholders on 6x9 Horseman cameras and 2x3 Graphics. The 4x5-version rollholders aren't relevant here.

[ic-racer]

Folks, Brian is trying to mount rollholders on 6x9 Horseman cameras and 2x3 Graphics. The 4x5-version rollholders aren't relevant here.

Yes, and I think the exact question is regarding a rollfilm holder that will slide into his Horseman 6x9 ground glass back, so he does not have to remove the GG back or use the rotary back.

There was a thread about this on APUG a while back. Someone suggested this: http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/adapt-a-roll.html

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Brian, I use Adapt-A-Roll 620 holders with my 2x3 Graphics. They slide between the focusing panel and the back of the camera like sheet film holders. Big drawback is that they must take up on a 620 spool. Smaller drawback is that they take the film up inside out. Minor drawback is that the the film advance doesn't lock when the film has been advanced one frame; one has to watch the counter or count clicks. 4 clicks = 1 2x3 frame.

Since 620 spools are a little scarce, I respool exposed film right side out on a 120 spool before sending it to the lab. That's what changing bags are for.

Oh, and by the way, I wrote the FAQ that ic-racer directed you to.

Cheers,

Dan

[Jeff Keller]

A different approach is to use the Horseman Reflex Viewfinder. It has the GG attached to it so when you remove it to use your rollfilm holder, there is nothing in the way of the roll film holder. It seems to enable accurate focusing and you won't need a dark cloth.

The main problem is deciding what to do with the viewfinder while the roll film holder is mounted. (I'm talking about the small monocular reflex viewfinder, not the large binocular).

Good luck, Jeff Keller

[Oren Grad]

I had the Horseman reflex finder for a while. I don't think it solves Brian's problem - you're still left with a piece of hardware you have to remove and juggle while you attach the film holder and make an exposure, it's just a different piece of hardware. If anything, the reflex finder is a bit less convenient at the point of exposure because it's held in place by the Graflok sliders and is slower both to attach and remove than the GG back with its dedicated retaining hooks.

PS: Because the reflex finder is attached using the Graflok clips, you can't use a slide-in like the Rapid Rollex or the Adapt-a-Roll with it, whereas you can use those with the standard GG back.

[Brian Wallen]

As a followup to Oren's original mention of the Linhof Rapid Rollex, I just note the current price on the B&H site--$1509.95. That is about 75% of the last retail price I saw for the Horseman VH and about 300% of what I paid for the used VH. I haven't seen a picture of the current Rapid Rollex, but the old ones I've seen have controls neatly tucked on the top deck, probably requiring removal of the RH to advance the film. The attraction of the Toyo was that the controls were located closer to the end. I thought they might work like the old 4 x 5 mount Calumet rollholders which slipped in under a Graflok or even spring focusing frame, but could be controlled from the pod that stuck out away from the focusing frame. I've never seen these in the 6x9 mount size.

Dan, I will check out the Adapt-A-Roll. I collect old Kodaks and regularly use a Medalist, so the 620 swap is a minor inconvenience, and one I do regularly anyway and maintain an assortment of emulsions rerolled on 620 spools. BTW, how is film flatness with the Adapt-A-Roll?

amoebahyda, is the Sinar you picture for a 4 x 5 or 6 x 9 mount. Since it has a setting for 6 x 12, I suspect it is for the former.

In general, design standards for film loading and composition have gotten at least some of us away from straight GG composition. I'm not trying to start an argument here with people who work under a dark cloth with an 8x loupe. It just doesn't work well for me. I like reflex finders, and I do appreciate my Wista VX with the compact folding finder that conveniently swings out of the way so I can use a loupe for critical focusing.

I also like the compactness of the VH: the convenience of the Rotary Back and Reflex Viewer bring it tantalizingly close for 120 work to MF SLRs, with movements. Unfortunately all of that convenience vanishes when you find that you can't use anything shorter than a normal length lens.

Complaining about the small lensboard on the Horsemans, has the flavor of wanting to run with the fox and hunt with the hounds. But the combination of short-focusing problems and the practical impossibility of using a recessed board does cause a lot of existential angst among Horseman owners. The first Horseman folders were made in the mid-60s when there were 58mm Grandagons and 47mm SAs, both in #00 shutters. Perhaps we can't hold the Horseman designers of that period responsible for a failure to anticipate what would happen to short-focus lens design in the next forty years, but just a little more foresight in this area of lens mounting could have made the difference between what is currently a limited use camera and an outstanding working classic.

I applaud those designers for adopting an open standard for attaching back accessories. Horseman accessories can often be used on any international G back. However the extension problems this design causes for short-focus lenses is a serious drawback. Compare the Horseman Rotary Back for the 4 x 5 mount that adds 45mm of extension to the sliding back that Wista attaches to its back rotation mechanism which adds only 7mm of extension. Interestingly when Horseman redesigned the VH as the Digital VH, it used a back-swapping strategy similar to Wista's to mount both a Rollei digital back plate and a conventional VH focusing frame.

[Bob Salomon]

As a followup to Oren's original mention of the Linhof Rapid Rollex, I just note the current price on the B&H site--$1509.95. That is about 75% of the last retail price I saw for the Horseman VH and about 300% of what I paid for the used VH. I haven't seen a picture of the current Rapid Rollex, but the old ones I've seen have controls neatly tucked on the top deck, probably requiring removal of the RH to advance the film. The attraction of the Toyo was that the controls were located closer to the end. I thought they might work like the old 4 x 5 mount Calumet rollholders which slipped in under a Graflok or even spring focusing frame, but could be controlled from the pod that stuck out away from the focusing frame. I've never seen these in the 6x9 mount size.

There is no need to remove the Rapid Rollex to advance the film or check the frame counter. They are fully controlled while under the ground glass. The only thing that you can't do while the RR is under the ground glass is load the back with film or remove the film after you are finished shooting.

[Dan Fromm]

Um, Brian, I also have Graflex RHs, late ones with pin rollers on the casing. I think that my AAR 620s give better film flatness than they do but haven't tested seriously.

Cheers,

Dan

[Oren Grad]

As a followup to Oren's original mention of the Linhof Rapid Rollex, I just note the current price on the B&H site--$1509.95.

They do turn up used now and then. As I recall, I paid something like $400 for mine. Still not bargain-basement for a rollholder, but much easier to swallow if you really need a slide-in for your working style.

As for advancing the film, I have my VH-R and RR in hand now. The way the holder inserts leaves the wind knob and exposure counter easily accessible.

The Sinar rollholders are strictly for 4x5. They're humongous.

[Oren Grad]

Brian, a further point, since you like the rotary back - the Toyo and Wista Graflok-type 2x3/6x9 and 6x7 backs were marketed primarily for use with sliding backs offered by those manufacturers for some of their 4x5 cameras. To my knowledge, Wista never offered a 2x3 camera, and the Toyo 23G monorail is long discontinued.

[Bob Salomon]

Brian, a further point, since you like the rotary back - the Toyo and Wista Graflok-type 2x3/6x9 and 6x7 backs were marketed primarily for use with sliding backs offered by those manufacturers for some of their 4x5 cameras. To my knowledge, Wista never offered a 2x3 camera, and the Toyo 23G monorail is long discontinued.

But Wista does offer a roll back that fits their 23 Quickslide shift back.

[Oren Grad]

But Wista does offer a roll back that fits their 23 Quickslide shift back.

Yes. Sorry if what I said was confusing on that point.

[Jeff Keller]

Maybe I haven't learned to efficiently release the retaining hooks. I find the the Graflok sliders much easier. Each slider can be released with one hand. I need both hands and something to hold the camera to release the hooks. Can someone describe a good way to release the retaining hooks?

Jeff Keller


If anything, the reflex finder is a bit less convenient at the point of exposure because it's held in place by the Graflok sliders and is slower both to attach and remove than the GG back with its dedicated retaining hooks.

[Brian Wallen]

Dan, thanks for the tip on the Adapt-A-Roll. I just picked one up on eBay and it looks like it will be a good solution for convenient GG composition with rollfilm with my Horseman VH when I am using short focus lenses.

I even found an AAR with an instruction sheet. I understand everything except the limitation stated in the instructions that I can take 8 6x9 exposures with B&W, but only 6 with color. I don't remember any time in the last 50 years that color 620/120 rolls had shorter film strips than B&W.

What's your experience?

[Dan Fromm]

Brian, when I load my AARs carefully -- blue tape just visible at the far end of the gate, advance 5 clicks, set counter to 1 -- I get 9 exposures/roll with 120 size E6 and with 120 TMX.

The AAR instructions puzzled me too when I first saw them. If they were ever applicable, they aren't now.

Cheers,

Dan

[Brian Wallen]

Here is an image of the Adapt-A-Roll rollholder:
http://www.prairienet.org/b-wallen/BN_Photo/LFN/AAR_rfq1.JPG

[Brian Wallen]

Jeff and Oren,

I think you are both talking about my concerns in attaching focusing panels and rollholders. When I first started using Graphics in the mid-50s, I guess I found it acceptable to remove the GG panel, then attach the rollholder, but then I was almost exclusively using the Graphic RF/VF for focusing and composition. Call me spoiled, but with my experience since then with 35mm RFs and SLRs, MF RFs and SLRs and the kinds of auxillary backs now available for 4x5 technical and view cameras, having to remove the GG back attached by spring clips and then attach a rollholder with Graflok slider bars just seems too tedious. It involves too much pushing and pulling on the back of the camera that threatens movement of the camera after it is composed and focused.

My Wista with the sliding 6x9 GG frame and 6x9 film gate that adds only 7mm of extension almost makes a perfect configuration except that Wista does not make a 6x9 reflex viewer, only a hood with a magnifier that attaches to the GG frame, and this outfit weighs about 8 lbs--a little too beefy for a rollfilm outfit. The Horseman VH is about 2 1/2 pounds lighter, but the Rotary Back adds 25mm of extension which kills the use of even modest WA lenses. I am willing to give up the Rotary Back to allow use of a 65mm lens, by composing and focusing with the regular GG focusing frame and the AAR holder. I even have some hope of being able to make a recessed board that will handle a 47mm SA in a #00 Compur or at least the 58mm Grandagon in this shutter.

[Jeff Keller]

Apparently Oren is more adept at un-hooking the spring clips than I am. I much prefer using the reflex finder so that I don't have to deal with the spring clips. The Graflok sliders aren't as much inconvenience for me as finding a place to set the finder when the roll film holder is mounted.

I've seen web pages where people have sliced off the top of the VH then re-attached it with a tape hinge so that they can get front rise with short lenses.

My Canham has the same issue of fighting the spring clips when using the Canham roll fill holder. Every time someone mentions a bail back I look to see if someone found a retrofit that could be done to my Canham.

I am happy enough with the reflex finder on the VH that I had quit worrying about a better solution. I hadn't heard of the 625 AAR before. It sounds interesting. Brian, I hope you will post a follow-up with your future experiences/solutions.

Jeff Keller


Jeff and Oren,

.... Call me spoiled, but with my experience since then with 35mm RFs and SLRs, MF RFs and SLRs and the kinds of auxillary backs now available for 4x5 technical and view cameras, having to remove the GG back attached by spring clips and then attach a rollholder with Graflok slider bars just seems too tedious. It involves too much pushing and pulling on the back of the camera that threatens movement of the camera after it is composed and focused.

... I am willing to give up the Rotary Back to allow use of a 65mm lens, by composing and focusing with the regular GG focusing frame and the AAR holder. I even have some hope of being able to make a recessed board that will handle a 47mm SA in a #00 Compur or at least the 58mm Grandagon in this shutter.

[Dan Fromm]

Jeff, read this thread from the start. Brian isn't the first person to acquire and, I hope, use an AAR 620. This thread contains a link to the AAR 620 FAQ on www.graflex.org (I wrote it) and some back and forth between Brian and me about, um, practical issues of implementation.

There's not really much more to say about AAR 620s except perhaps that because they take the film up inside out and don't have a spring to discourage the film from relaxing on the takeup spool -- it would scratch the film -- one has to be very careful when unloading to avoid light struck film. I unload mine in a changing bag and while I'm at it respool the exposed film on the 120 spool to send it to the lab. That's what changing bags are for.

Yes, this procedure is a time-consuming pain. If I were willing to lose 620 spools to the lab I'd just make sure the film was tightly wound and secure it on the spool with a rubber band.

I'm sure that Brian will soon discover that because the Graflok springs are fairly strong and the AAR is thick inserting an AAR can also shift the camera, tripod, ... One has to be very deliberate. When I was out shooting yesterday I did one clumsy insertion, had to remove the AAR and recompose.

AAR 620s work. Modern roll holders, including Graflex' own, are a bit easier to use. No roll holder is perfect.

Cheers,

Dan

[Anthony Oresteen]

Don't forget, you can still use sheet film holders!

[Anthony Oresteen]

But Wista does offer a roll back that fits their 23 Quickslide shift back.

I have two the Wista backs if anyone is interested. They will ONLY fit the Wista Quickslide back.

Bought them for my Cambo 23SF but they DO NOT fit!

[Brian Wallen]

I've shot a couple of rolls through the Adapt-A-Roll holder discussed above. This can perhaps best be described as a 6 x 9 version of the Calumet rollholders for 4 x 5. They have a very thin film gate structure with the supply and takeup spools in a pod at the end. They are a bit quirky as Dan describes above, but once you've learned the recipe, they are reliable and seem to provide a reasonably flat film path. Some may find the respooling operation to move the exposed roll to a 120 spool a bit onerous. Old Kodak hands who do respooling so they can still shoot with their Medalists and Monitors will shrug this off.

The big advantage is that you can set up a 6 x 9 folder--any of the Horsemans, baby Technikas or Graphic 23s with a reflex finder, then slip in the AAR to the Graflok or spring back gape, just as you would a cutfilm holder. Of course, this works equally well if you are using an ordinary GG frame without a reflex finder.

In addition to Dan's hints above, I've scanned the instruction sheet that came with my AAR. It is available as a PDF download here:
http://www.bnphoto.org/bnphoto/LFN/Access_Adapt-A-Roll.htm