Help with Vintage Lenses

[Anthony Lewis]

I have just started to take an interest in vintage lenses. I have read the Petzval Picture thread, and other vintage lens threads, and love the 'look' of the shots with these old lenses. I particularly like those taken with Petzval lenses.

I am wanting to start buying some of these older lenses. However, I am confused about all the brand names, model no's and so forth, but I think I am starting to get an idea. I have Sinar cameras, both 4x5 and 8x10.

I have come across someone here in Australia who has the following lenses for sale. Can someone tell me if they are any good, or any other comments please? Prices are in Aus. dollars. I have spelt the names as best I could as there was a language barrier between the seller and myself (it was all done over the phone). The seller says the glass in all the lenses is very good!

1) Voitglander Braunfchweit APO Skoper 30cm f9 $395
2) Voitglander Braunfchweit APO Skoper 45cm f9 $495
2) Carl Zeiss APO Tessar 450mm f9 $99
3) Carl Zeiss Tessar 210mm f3.5 ( the letter 'T' is marked on the lens in red) $395
4) Staeble Ultraton 210mm f9 (looks new) $95
5) Som Berthiot 375mm f4.5
6) Trinast Anastitgmat 28cm f3.7 no aperture
7) Dallmeyer f3 7 1/4 inch 3B Special Anstigmat with soft focus $395
8) Cooke 460mm f4.5 in leather case, soft focus (lens looks gold) $895
9) Carl Zeiss Jena 43cm f3.5 Epiotar no aperture $395
10) Ross lens Xpies 5 3/8 inch f3.5 with shutter
11) Graflex Optar 135mm f4.7
12) Kodak Ektar Aero 178mm f2.5 on Sinar lens board

The Dallmeyer and the Cooke look interesting, but I would appreciate your help and comments.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Anthony,

If all are fine the prices look about correct except #9, a bit high, Epiotar would be a projector lens.

"The Dallmeyer and the Cooke look interesting" and the rest are modern lenses without the antique look.

"3) Carl Zeiss Tessar 210mm f3.5 ( the letter 'T' is marked on the lens in red)" should be a fine 'modern' portrait lens for 4x5.

Hope it's a help.

[Mark Sawyer]

Pretty much confirming what Paul said. The only two "vintage" lenses are the Dallmeyer and the Cooke. The Cooke is a triplet with a soft focus adjustment. The Dallmeyer is probably closer to what you want, though I'm not sure that the f/3 is a true Petzval. Their catalogue said of the f/3 Series B lenses: "Dallmeyer Patent Portrait lenses are constructed on a different principle from the old Petzval type of portrait lenses, and excel them in definition, fredom from distortion and flare and in equality of illumination, whilst in addition to this, they afford a means, by a single turn of the mount, of giving soft pictures in which there is evenness of definition without unpleasant out-of-focus effects."

If you go for the Dallmeyer, ask first whether the soft-focus adjustment will turn. Most are frozen, as Dallmeyer manufactured to very, very close tolerances.

[John Kasaian]

IMHO what you want is a lens off of an old magic lantern. Shop the flea markets and on-line auctions. Coverage can be dicey with the smaller lenses. In a darkened room point the lens towards a window and see how big of an image it will project on the wall behind it. Buy the cheap stuff :)

[Lachlan 717]

Anthony,

I bought a lens from the person that I think you're looking to deal with.

All things considered, it worked out okay. However, there were a couple of "areas for improvement".

First, the lens was described as being "brass". Parts of it definitely are. The main barrel, however, is stainless steel. It is not even plated brass. Nothing to worry about except for it being wrong.

Second, it was down as a 300mm focal length; however, it is only about 240mm. Doesn't worry me (in fact, much better length in hindsight), but it could have been as issue if I had wanted a specific f/length.

On the upside, glass is crystal clear!

Also, I am a bit bewildered by the continuing change of eBay name that this person uses. It seems to change every 3 months or so (I think it's Cameo_loves_ham or similar and cia_love_animal by the look of the listing). I cannot think of why this is (if it even is the same person, but, again, listings are bloody similar!!)...

Finally, let me wrap this up by saying that I would be more than happy to buy from the Love Animal again, just with some reservation as to what is going to arrive!

Lachlan,
Melbourne.

[Archphoto]

Not to worry you:

To put it mildly: there has been talk about this seller....
Either he does not know what he is talking about, or he knows, represents wrongly and plays deaf.

Having said that, if you get what you expect and you are happy with it every thing is OK.

Peter

[Toyon]

Anyone who says the "glass is all good" is lying. There are almost always some problems with glass and they should be found and noted by conscientious sellers. That gives the buyer a chance to weight the effects.

[Sevo]

Most of these lenses are process lenses from the fourties to sixties, hardly vintage, and to some not even quite a lens.

At least one (the Epiotar) is a low grade projection lens, another (the Staeble) was ripped from a instant offset plate copier. Quite a few of them are unusually expensive - the Epiotar and Staeble are both in the bargain bins of many surplus stores (and so may be other process lenses in other parts of the world). The 3.5/210 Tessar is quite a good lens, but as a GDR stock lens produced in considerable excess quantity these are easily procured for much less.

The APO Tessar for one is decently priced - but then, the quite similar APO Skopars are considerably overpriced. If it is the vendor everybody supposes, he/she/they have been touting these close-range-corrected Tessar types erroneously as Heliar types - possibly in the hope of somebody mistaking them for a (indeed pricey) APO Lanthar, which throws some doubt on either their honesty or their competence.

Sevo

[Mark Sawyer]

I believe the same seller inspired this thread:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=33814&highlight=ebay+seller

[Ole Tjugen]

Sevo is absolutely correct. An APO-Skopar is a rather common reproduction lens, and very different from the far less common APO-Lanthar. Both of those two for $200 might be a good deal.

[Anthony Lewis]

Thanks for your responses. Lachlan, you may be right as the person resides in Melbourne. Anyone who calls themselves "animal love", well I'm not sure I would want to pickup the lens by myself. Who knows what my eyes may encounter beyond the front door!

I am mildly interested in the Dallmeyer. Mark thanks for your comments. I googled 'Dallmeyer 3B' and came up with the same literature that you quote. However other responses do call it a Petzval and I saw a beautiful portrait with this lens of the affect I like. The 3B is described as a 11 inch lens, however this guys says he has a 7 inch, but then I could have misunderstood him. If anyone could give me more info about the Dallmeyer then that would be great?

John I'm sure your advice is right - search flea markets, keep to the cheap stuff, and magic lantern lenses maybe what I'm looking for.

[goamules]

The series B lens is f3. The patent Dallmeyer applied to the petzval was really minor; they reversed the order of the lenses in the rear group. It doesn't really make any noticible difference, and it's still a petzval, really. Later, Wollensak did the same thing with the Vitax. The 3B is a nice, fast portrait lens.

Now, it should not be a 7 inch lens. And the seller I'm thinking of is known to stretch the truth and the condition of lenses. Be cautious and be sure.

[Jim Galli]

The series B lens is f3. The patent Dallmeyer applied to the petzval was really minor; they reversed the order of the lenses in the rear group. It doesn't really make any noticible difference, and it's still a petzval, really. Later, Wollensak did the same thing with the Vitax. The 3B is a nice, fast portrait lens.

Now, it should not be a 7 inch lens. And the seller I'm thinking of is known to stretch the truth and the condition of lenses. Be cautious and be sure.

It should not be an Anastigmat either. I think we're confusing 3B's.

It is a confusing world for sure. What format are you wishing to use with a Petzval?

[Dan Fromm]

Sevo is absolutely correct. An APO-Skopar is a rather common reproduction lens, and very different from the far less common APO-Lanthar. Both of those two for $200 might be a good deal.But Ole, the Apo-Skopar is an f/9 "heliar" type. For those who are confused about just what makes a heliar, think of an Apo-Skopar as an Apo-Saphir type. Ole's explained the difference between a Heliar and a Dynar many times, but few of us retain the information.

FWIW, Ole, Eric found an old f/8 (or was it f/9 or f/10?) Heliar prescription and calculated its performance. Like the Apo Saphir, it is essentially aberration free over a narrow field.

I've run across two types of Apo-Skopars. Apo Skopars with the elements in cells that unscrew easily from their barrels, and in barrels with diaphragms; these were made for use in repro cameras, can be adapted for use as taking lenses, and command high prices. And Apo Skopars that seem to have been made for photofinishers' automatic printers, whose elements aren't in conventional cells and that can't be used for much. Useless, often sell for little unless remounted in an SLR focusing mount and touted as macro lenses.

Cheers,

Dan

[Anthony Lewis]

Thanks for all your replies. I'm interested in the Dallmeyer if it is what I think it is.
Apparently the lens has this inscription on it:
J H Dallmeyer,'a serial no.'. London 35, Patent 1866/1909, focus 7 1/4 inches, Special Anastigmat, F3. The inscription '3B' is on the inside of the front of the lens.

Is this a Dallmeyer 3B? Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

[goamules]

Oh, a Special Anastig.... Nope, not the 3B petzval we were discussing. (A 3B petzval would be 11 inch focal). I'm not finding any Special Anastigmat at f3 in the Vade Mecum, but I may be missing something.

[John Kasaian]

There is a 12" Velostigmat for sale by some one on this forum---check the for sale section---these are wonderful old Wollensaks that have a vintage charm to them when shot at wider apertures. IIRC Jim Galli has some beautiful examples of work done with one of tese lenses on his website.
If I had a spare $250 (heck, if I had a job!) I'd look into it myself.
Good luck!

[Sevo]

But Ole, the Apo-Skopar is an f/9 "heliar" type. For those who are confused about just what makes a heliar, think of an Apo-Skopar as an Apo-Saphir type. Ole's explained the difference between a Heliar and a Dynar many times

Sure? I've always assumed mine to be a reverse Tessar derivate - front concave-planoconvex doublet, aperture, concave, planoconvex. If the rear element should be another cemented doublet (there is no inner reflection I can see, but I won't take the cell apart just now), it might be a reverse Dynar, or a reverse Dynar front/Heliar back hybrid (if the rear should have a concave outer lens). But a reverse Heliar it can't be, given a convex front lens in the front doublet.

Sevo

[Dan Fromm]

Sevo, if you search -- it might still be up on Seth Broder's side photoeccentric.com -- you'll find that Voigtlaender published a brochure on their lenses in which they show a cross section of an Apo Skopar. Looks like an Apo Saphir to me.

A tessar's singlet elements are bi-convex (outer element), bi-concave (inner element) and this is true for normal ordinary tessars whose pair of singlets face the subject and reversed tessars like the 90/6.3 Mikrotar (had one, sold it) and 100/6.3 Neupolar (better lens, still have it).

[Anthony Lewis]

I want to thank everyone for their replies and help. I am not going to buy from this seller as I cannot get reliable information about his lenses. He cannot email me pictures, but sends faxes where I can't see any detail.

I will certainly look at the Velostigmat. Thanks again.

[Ole Tjugen]

Sure? I've always assumed mine to be a reverse Tessar derivate - front concave-planoconvex doublet, aperture, concave, planoconvex. If the rear element should be another cemented doublet (there is no inner reflection I can see, but I won't take the cell apart just now), it might be a reverse Dynar, or a reverse Dynar front/Heliar back hybrid (if the rear should have a concave outer lens). But a reverse Heliar it can't be, given a convex front lens in the front doublet.

Sevo

It might well be half a Heliar and half a Dynar - the combination is called Oxyn, and was used for reproduction lenses until the APO-Collinear took over. It might well be that improved glasses made the Oxyn better (and cheaper to make) than the massive APO-Collinear at a later date. Since the APO-Collinear was already known to be better than the older Oxyn, Voigtländer is very likely to have changed the name of the new tweaked lens.