210mm lens for 8x10 Format

[felix5616]

What is the least expensive 210mm lens for 8x10 film, allowing for some movement and f stop in the range of f11?

[JJ Viau]

Fuji w 210mm??

[Walter Calahan]

Fujinon as mentioned above.

[Darryl Baird]

great question, here's the answer (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=463929&postcount=1)

and a few sample images (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=464370&postcount=5)
:D

[Ron Marshall]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=27009&page=2

[neil poulsen]

For movement, next step up would be an old 210mm Angulon. These go for roughly $1200, although I'm sure there's variation. If I read the forum pages correctly, at an 83 degree image angle at f22, this lens has an image circle at right around 371mm at that f-stop.

Maybe the Fuji has more movement than implied by its 309mm image circle.

[Jim Galli]

I'm assuming you mean in a shutter. Schneider G-Claron actually has some nice usable coverage and they are cheap now. In barrel the Ultragon 210mm works just like the G-Claron. I may have one laying in a drawer somewhere.

In spite of what you read in Schneiders literature, a 210 G Claron will cover about 375mm! You need 310 for 8X10. Yes, I've tested this.

[Ted Stoddard]

Whats the difference in the Fuji 210 5.6 "CM W" and just the "W" Versions? Which one is better to purchase for 8x10?

[Brian Ellis]

Not sure why you mention f11 as a pre-requisite since that's a pretty wide aperture to be using with any 8x10 lens but the 210 G Claron is inexpensive, covers 8x10 at f16 (probably not at f11 though I don't know for sure), and has room for movements as you stop down further (the more you stop down the more the room). I've owned two 210 G Clarons and used them with 8x10 cameras. I don't ever remember running out of room for movements when stopped down enough and diffraction isn't a real issue with 8x10 negatives unless maybe you're thinking of huge prints, like in the 40'x50' range.

[Gem Singer]

The Fuji CM-W's are the latest versions of Fuji lenses.

The way Fuji explains it in their advertising (I'm paraphrasing here):

The CM-W's do not use cemented elements. Due to the effectiveness of the EBC coating process (electron beam), Fuji is able to leave air spaces between the glass elements and still succeed in reducing internal reflections. Also, no cemented glass elements, no danger of lens separation over time.

Cementing lens elements requires hands-on effort on the part of skillful operators. The CM-W lens design adds precision, while reducing time and effort in the manufacturing process.

[Gem Singer]

To answer Ted's question, the new Fuji 210 CM-W has an image circle of 309 mm and is EBC coated.

There is an older version of the Fuji 210, merely labeled 210W. It has an image circle of 352 mm and is single coated.

The older version is capable of covering 8X10 with movements. The newer version does not cover 8X10.

[Ted Stoddard]

Thanks Gem....

[Sal Santamaura]

...The CM-W's do not use cemented elements...The 105, 125, 180 and 210 CM-W Fujinons are all listed as 6 elements in 5 groups, therefore using one cemented pair of elements per lens.

[Gene McCluney]

Do you guys ever look at the Large Format Information page listed as a link at the top of this forum when you are on the opening page? If you do, you will find this link from within the text on one of the information pages:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenseslist.html

The above link takes you to a page listing almost all applicable lenses and their coverages.

If you are interested in newer (current, or almost current) lenses, you can go to another linked page here:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/

And from that page, pick your format, and see all the choices.

While I'm sure neither list is absolutely comprehensive, there are sure a lot of lenses to compare.

[David Karp]

The problem is that older lenses, like the Fuji Ws, are not on the list.

When looking for a 210 Fuji W for 8x10, you have to be careful. You want one with the lettering on the inside of the barrel, on the front bezel of the lens. That is the single coated Fuji W. There is a later series, technically the "NW" series, that has the lettering on the outside of the barrel. The problem is that they are also labeled "Fujinon W" instead of "Fujinon NW." Thanks Fuji! :) These 210 NWs have a smaller image circle than the original W series, and EBC multicoating.

[Oren Grad]

The other problem is that the manufacturer's specified coverage at f/22 is not necessarily the same as the practically useful coverage. The G-Clarons are the obvious example - stop them down and most users find that they have a much larger usable image circle than specified.

[Gene McCluney]

The problem is that older lenses, like the Fuji Ws, are not on the list.



The 210mm Fujinon W is most certainly on the first linked list in my post above. It shows a coverage of 350.

The second linked list is later-model lenses.

[Gem Singer]

Sal,

I was merely repeating the info that Fuji put out in their advertising brochures when they released the CM-W series.

As a collector/user of Fuji LF lenses, I too have never been able to figure out how they could make a lens with 6 elements in 5 groups without cementing at least two of the glass elements together.

Perhaps Fuji uses different mathematics to describe their lens formulas? It remains a mystery to me.

[erie patsellis]

If anybody want to pay $1200 for a 210 angulon, I have one for sale ;)

[Mark Sawyer]

The 215mm f/4.8 Ilex Acuton (later called the Caltar S) covers 8x10 with a bit left for movements, and converts to a 360mm. It's a modern plasmat design in a #3
Ilex shutter, nicely single-coated, and often goes in the $100 range.

[neil poulsen]

If anybody want to pay $1200 for a 210 angulon, I have one for sale ;)

Maybe I'm high . . . on that price. But, I've seen them go for $1200 in the past.

[Drew Wiley]

G-Clarons were originally specified for graphics and closeup repro work. Hence their
official image circle was listed very conservatively, almost at "apo" standards. General
photography allows not only more liberal use of the image circle, but smaller than ideal
f-stops. But 210 would be pushing it if you expect movements. Fuji literature on the other hand was a bit too optimistic on lens coverage. And this can be confusing because of the way lenses were labeled. For example, I found that my 250/6.3 W Fuji easily covered 8X10 with movements, but it was a multicoated version of this lens not
present in the literature. And my 240A has even better coverage, and is essentially
identical in coverage to my 250 G-Claron. Yet I'd personally be sqeamish about using
a 210 G-Claron on 8X10 useless it were for closeups or straight-on shots without tilt
or swing. I think the corners would be a little mushy.

[Jim Galli]

G-Clarons were originally specified for graphics and closeup repro work. Hence their
official image circle was listed very conservatively, almost at "apo" standards. General
photography allows not only more liberal use of the image circle, but smaller than ideal
f-stops. But 210 would be pushing it if you expect movements. Fuji literature on the other hand was a bit too optimistic on lens coverage. And this can be confusing because of the way lenses were labeled. For example, I found that my 250/6.3 W Fuji easily covered 8X10 with movements, but it was a multicoated version of this lens not
present in the literature. And my 240A has even better coverage, and is essentially
identical in coverage to my 250 G-Claron. Yet I'd personally be sqeamish about using
a 210 G-Claron on 8X10 useless it were for closeups or straight-on shots without tilt
or swing. I think the corners would be a little mushy.

We're getting into cake and eat it too at this juncture. In my tests the G-Claron was very usable out in the 360mm world of the circle, the last 5 or 8mm getting pretty mushy. The problem is this; you can pick up a 210 G-Claron for 200 bucks. Sure you can get out in the 400mm world with an f9 Computar, but that 200 bucks becomes 1200. That makes the G-Claron a bargain if you can live in it's parameters. A lot of folks do. Think about those extreme corners. Empty sky? OK I can put up with mush there. Foreground gravel, hmmm, not quite as easy but if it's a choice of not doing the photo, I've got a pair of scissors. The options beyond that 370mm circle are ALL expensive, and some are just annoyingly heavy also.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

My experience shows me that Fuji is much too optimistic on their lens coverage and Schneider and Rodenstock much more conservative.
My Fuji 250/6,7 covers 8x10 well, but flare affects the margins. The old Sironar S 240 cover a bit less, but its image is very consistent from edge to edge.

If little movement is no object, the APO Sironar N 210 covers 8x10 with small room for movements from f22 and it is not a cult lens, so prices are attractive (image quality is superb).
Helcio

[Sal Santamaura]

...My Fuji 250/6,7 covers 8x10 well, but flare affects the margins. The old Sironar S 240 cover a bit less, but its image is very consistent from edge to edge...Is that a result of the Fuji flaring or bellows flare from the Fuji's larger circle?

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Is that a result of the Fuji flaring or bellows flare from the Fuji's larger circle?

hmmmm

Sal,
that I must verify, but the Sironar S did not show it, same place and sun position, and its coverage is a bit less.

[Gem Singer]

The older Fuji f6.7 250, that you are referring to, is single coated. That would also increase the probability of flare.

[Bob Salomon]

The old Sironar S 240

Again, there never was an "old Sironar S". The only S from Rodenstock was and is the Apo Sironar S. It did not replace an older design.

You probably meant the older Sironar or Sironar N.

Schneider made a Symmar S but that was never a Rodenstock name.

[benrains]

Again, there never was an "old Sironar S". The only S from Rodenstock was and is the Apo Sironar S. It did not replace an older design.

You probably meant the older Sironar or Sironar N.

Schneider made a Symmar S but that was never a Rodenstock name.

Or maybe Sinar's Sinaron S (which is a rebadged Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-N, no?) That one has caused some confusion for me in the not so distant past.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Again, there never was an "old Sironar S". The only S from Rodenstock was and is the Apo Sironar S. It did not replace an older design.

You probably meant the older Sironar or Sironar N.

Schneider made a Symmar S but that was never a Rodenstock name.

Bob,
you're rigth. I made some confusion between my Apo Sironar N 210 and my old Symmar S 240!!

The Symmar S has no edge flare and it covers only a bit less than the Fuji 250/6,7 (and costs much less). Of course, the Fuji is a small and ligth lens.

Hélcio

[Sal Santamaura]

...same place and sun position...Was the sun in the image? If so, I would expect the single-coated Fujinon to exhibit more flare. Why that flare was limited to the edges is something to investigate though.

[DeBone75]

Repromaster 213 will cover 11X14. Usually go for "get that paper weight out of here" to $195.00. It is a barrel lens.