Newbie jumping into 4x5 processing

[picker77]

I'm tired of having my local lab scratch up my negatives, I'd rather learn to scratch them myself. So I just bought a new Jobo 4342 "Sheet Film Processing System" from Samys (don't actually have it yet). The 4342 "System" includes a 2551 tank, two 4x5 reels, and some sort of plastic device called a 4x5 sheet film loader. I plan to use it on a motorized roller base. Two immediate questions:

1. My local dealer stocks only Kodak (lots) and a few Ilford chemicals. What's the most bulletproof, simplest chemical kit for a beginner using a setup like this? I'm thinking D-76, Kodak stop, Kodak fixer, and Photoflo?

2. I will also eventually want to do some reels of 120 B&W, and maybe even some 35mm B&W. I have an opportunity to buy three new Jobo "System 2000" adjustable reels for what seems like a good price. How many of these reels fit in the tank? Can I just load one or two and leave the other reel(s) as space fillers? Not having the tank in hand yet, I'm not sure what combination of loaded/empty reels will fit in this thing, and Jobo's website(s) pretty much suck for detailed info.

Thanks for your patience whilst I get up to speed here.

[Ron Marshall]

I find that overall XTOL (1:1) has a good combination of qualities:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/chemistry/bwFilmProcessing/selecting.jhtml?pq-path=14053

It is easy to mix, cheap and gives good image quality.

[Gene McCluney]

D-76, HC-110 and Xtol are all good developers from Kodak. Some like HC-110 because it is a liquid concentrate and does not require mixing from powder. They all produce comparable results when you "dial" in your personal exposure and development techniques.

For film you do not need to use a stop bath, a simple water rinse is sufficient, but you CAN use a stop bath if you want to.

Yes, it is common practice to put in empty reels to take up the space in a film tank when you are processing one roll.

[Brian Ellis]

Most darkroom chemical choices are just a matter of personal preference but FWIW, I used D76 for years. Except for a few stabs at pyro and Rodinal it was the only developer I ever used. It's been around for something like 100 years - literally - so it must be o.k. I diluted it 1-1 but after doing all the testing I read an article in which the author claimed it was better undiluted and backed the claim up with some evidence based on his tests. If I were starting over I'd use it undiluted but 1-1 gives you a little more leeway for minor timing problems and of course you use less developer. I kept concentrated D76 in multiple small bottles so that the bottles were always full and it had a good shelf life that way, at least a couple months.

I always hated the smell of stop bath so I used one that had kind of a vanilla odor, can't remember the brand but it seemed to do just as good a job as the ones that stink. I don't think water is a good substitute for a stop bath, stop performs a couple functions that water doesn't (see Ansel Adams' book "The Negative").

For fix I liked the Ilford Universal one-minute fix and I used the two-tray fix system. I'm sure Kodak Rapid Fix does a fine job, I just liked the short time of Ilford's system. Anything that reduces the time spent jiggling trays while inhaling chemical fumes is a good thing IMHO.

For water spots I preferred LFN rather than Photoflo. Photoflo tended to be soapy, especially when mixed at the dilution Kodak suggested, and LFN just seemed to do a better job of dealing with spots.

Those were just my choices, I don't think they were "better" than anyone else's. But except for using the two-tray system for fix they were about as simple as it gets and simplicity in the darkroom is a good way to go IMHO.

[drew.saunders]

I'm tired of having my local lab scratch up my negatives, I'd rather learn to scratch them myself. So I just bought a new Jobo 4342 "Sheet Film Processing System"

I got the 4341 from Freestyle a while ago, it has just one 4x5 reel, and having two is more useful. I also picked up a 2551 2-reel tank with a spare reel from my local photo shop's used section. I could still use 3 reels, so I'll keep an eye out for a used one at the same store, they often have them. The starter kit is a good deal, since the loader can be very handy. Some folks can load the sheets without it, but I find it useful.



2. I will also eventually want to do some reels of 120 B&W, and maybe even some 35mm B&W. I have an opportunity to buy three new Jobo "System 2000" adjustable reels for what seems like a good price. How many of these reels fit in the tank? Can I just load one or two and leave the other reel(s) as space fillers? Not having the tank in hand yet, I'm not sure what combination of loaded/empty reels will fit in this thing, and Jobo's website(s) pretty much suck for detailed info.

http://www.jobo.com/web/2500_Series_Tanks.337.0.html

Your 2551 will fit about 1.5 of the 120/220 reels, meaning you can only use one reel, but you can theoretically load two rolls of 120 onto the reel, assuming the film doesn't jump the slots and curl onto itself. The reel I have can be set for 35mm or 120/220, and I think that's its main downfall, as it doesn't like to stay at the right width for 120/220, making it a bear to load. I suppose I could super-glue it into the right position for 120 if I wanted to. The larger 2551 will take 3 of the reels at the 120/220 setting. The reels stay put on the spindle, so you don't have to worry about the extra space above or below the single 120/220 reel, this isn't like the loose reel system that you may have used before where they could knock about in the tank.

For 120, I got a used 1520 tank and paid the big bucks (relatively speaking) for the Hama stainless steel reel that takes only one roll of 120, but the film feeds much more easily on the Hama reel and doesn't jump off the slots and curl onto itself. I can only process one roll of 120 at a time, but the local photo shop charges about $5/roll for just developing 35mm or 120 which they can finish in just a couple hours, so if I have more than one roll of 120, or any 35mm, I'll just drop it off with them. If I shot more 35mm, I might get the Hama SS reels for it as well.

Drew

[picker77]

Ok all, thanks for all the helpful info. The Jobo web page for 2500 series tanks says the 2551 will hold three 120 reels, so I guess I'm good. It also has a magnet on the lid, which I won't make use of since I won't (yet) be using a Jobo processor. I didn't realize these tanks had a center spindle to keep the reels under control.

I'm rethinking the good deal on the three 35/120 reels, though.. the boxes say they are "Soligor Jobo System 2000 DuoSet" adjustable reels, and they are made of a clear plastic material. The packaging is clearly intended to look like a Jobo product. However, the genuine #2502 reels on the Jobo website are all black plastic, and look a little different. So maybe the reels I saw weren't the real Jobo deal. The Soligor reels might be perfectly fine, but I think I'll stick with Jobo on all of this, at least at the outset.

So far I've been totally amazed at the incredibly complex model numbering scheme that Jobo uses for their darkroom stuff. Their marketing people must stay up late at the beer garden thinking up new ways to confuse newcomers to their products.

[picker77]

Finally settled on a kit. Jobo Multitank2 w/2 reels, Multitank5 w/2 2509n reels, Jobo Loader and 4x5 sheet feeder, Beseler reversible motor base. Ilfotec DD-X, Ilford Rapid Fixer, Arista Premium "Odorless" stop, Arista Flo Wetting Agent. Will be developing FP4+ and Delta 100 Pro in 4x5, plus a variety of (mostly) Ilford MF film. Still collecting the bits and pieces but getting close. Thanks again to all for the advice and help on getting started, now I just need to shoot some more film and see what happens, really looking forward to developing my first negative ever. Ha.

[SW Rick]

Samys has what looks like a very good deal on ebay now- 7 new kits left: Jobo 4342 kit with 2551 drum, 2 4x5 reels and film loader- all for $129.

Rick

[ki6mf]

If you move into the zone system you would want to use a diluted system. The ideal is to have 2 minutes development to increase or decrease each stop/zone. The reason you go diluted, which does mean longer development times - I know get a chair to sit in- is that with over exposed images-common on most sunny days- you run the risk of preventing the highlights from developing. The shadow areas will get the right amount of development while highlights will be flat. The longer your develop the more the silver builds up and the more the highlights develop. There are plenty of threads here on how to do test calibration on your meter, film, and agitation technique.

I personally use d 76 1 part developer and 3 parts water. My normal development is 14 minutes!

One thing I would do is research, select, and stay with a developer of your choice. More problems happen when changing and trying new chemicals developers!

[venchka]

I ran film through a similar setup yesterday.

3 emulsions: Ilford PanF+, Kodak Tri-X Professional 320 and Freestyle's rebranded Kodak Plus-X.

Jobo 2553 & reversing Uniroller.

800ml Xtol 1:3, tap water, Kodak Rapid Fix, tap water wash, Half strength (1:400) Photo-Flo in distilled water, hang on my shower curtain rod. Piece of cake.

The 2551/2553 twins are really nice. You even develop 35mm, 120/220 and 4x5 all at once.

Good luck!

[picker77]

The Samy's kit mentioned is the one I ended up with, and I'm very happy with it. As it turns out I don't use the loader, but it was thrown in, so I have it. Once I figured out how to fumble around and get the "wings" installed by feel on the 4x5 reels I had it made. That kit is a very good deal. One tip for 2509 reels: File a small "v" groove exactly above the center plastic tab on one side of each reel. Easy to locate with your fingertips in the dark, and makes placement of the wings quick and easy. Once you have the correct (center one of the three) plastic tab located with your fingertips, the wings snap right into place with just a little pressure.

Since I don't do a lot of film I'm using Ilford DD-X at 1:4 in the throwaway mode, and it works just fine, seem to be a very reliable and forgiving developer--I'll probably stick with it. I don't have running water in my "darkroom", which is just a table in the back room of my shop 250' from my house. At first I was afraid this would be a big problem, but not so. I got a couple of rectangular Wal-mart 2.5 gallon drinking water tanks with spigots, and I refill these as needed from a 5-gallon Culligan bottle. I use bottled water for the developer, stop, and fix (the stop and fix last a long time since they are reused), then after fixing take the tank immediately into my house and do the standard Ilford 5-10-20 rinse in tap water, which in my case is hard well water. Back to the shop, pour out the last tap water rinse, and add about a liter of bottled water with a couple of drops of Aristo wetting agent, drop the tank back on the Beseler roller for a minute or two, dump the tank, open it, extract the film from the reels and hang, very gently wipe down the film with damp paper towels and leave to dry. Not a bit of scratching, dust or spot problems so far, and the whole routine is very easy and quick. Now that I've seen how easy it is, I'm embarrassed I didn't start doing this years ago. Rotary processing on a motor base with Jobo tank/reels has worked out great.

I have done quite a bit of 4x5, and maybe a dozen 120 reels, but so far haven't done any 35mm. No reason to think that won't be easy, too.

On the humor side, when developing my second batch of 4x5 FP4+, I got the film loaded on the reels, after much cursing finally got the wings in place, installed the reels on the center column, and dropped the whole rig into the tank. That's when I looked over and saw the tank lid sitting on the workbench beside me. Dang. Fortunately I have a big Fuji dark tent with long sleeves and double elastic, and I was able to extract myself from the sleeves, sneak the lid into the tent via a sleeve, and cap the tank. I'll have to admit I was sweating bullets there for a few seconds, though. :o

[venchka]

If the wipping down part is working for you, do continue.

On the other hand, I quit touching my negatives and have not had any problems.

Different strokes for different folks.

[picker77]

I'll keep that in mind, Wayne. Thanks. I have been using very damp paper towels with a very gentle single wiping motion, so far without problems, but clearly it would be better to not touch them at all if I could do that and not end up with any water marks or streaks. Maybe I'll try it with a roll or two of 120 and see what happens.
Jerry

[dng88]

i do stand development (Ansel Adam HC110 version) using the big Jobo tank. If you pre-wet the negative, it seems work ok but I am a beginner myself and hence not really an advice but just an idea.

[peter bainbridge]

Can anyone suggest some pointers here..? I'm using the Japanese ISE dev tanks for 4x5 B/W, I'm finding it difficult achiving even dev across the film, there's room for 12 sheets but that seems part of the uneven problem.? so I put in 6 at a time with an empty space between each neg (more room for even dev me thinks).? I'm using TXP 320, the DEV is DK 25, I'm rating the film at 100 because of the dev, I'm processing at 17 min's at 24 degrees, and still flat and uneven, on top of which it looks like I'm still loosing a stop using these combinations.? the agitation i use is, i lift the whole tank up and gently swirl in circular motions for the initial 30 sec then 5 turns to the right every min, then 5 the other way the following min..and 17 mins per 6 sheets, per dev, is doing my head in when processing 100 sheets per shoot, I'm thinking of increasing the metol 1 gram per LT.?? may not be enough...painful......help.........Peter

[Jack Dahlgren]

I'm not familiar with the ise tank, but generally agitation (in dark room) is done by lifting the holders, tilt at 45 degrees to drain to the left, then dip and drain to the right. then set them back in. The tank stays stationary the whole time.

If you agitate the tank, because you can't invert it like a roll film tank, the top is going to get more agitation than the bottom. I can't see this being effective.

Also at the start of the development I begin by repeatedly lifting and dropping the holders (about 1 cm) to provide initial agitation and ridding them of any bubbles. This goes on for the first 30 seconds.

So in summary, pull the holders out straight up, tilt, dip, tilt then let them rest until the next interval. This should give you even development. Once you have even development, figure out how much time is required for complete development.

Until you have your agitation method worked out, don't make changes to your chemicals or you won't know which variable to deal with.

[peter bainbridge]

Thanks for the time out Jack...peter

[Jim Burk]

The main thing to watch out for when doing tank processing with hangers is the lifting and dropping speed. Slow and smooth is required to avoid "Surge Marks" on the negative. Learn to use the same speed for all stages. This will make is easier to duplicate the motion every time for consistent results.

[Bill_1856]

Cancel the Jobo, buy four 8x10 plastic trays (with dimpled bottoms), and some wood cloths pins (or stainless film clips). It's easier and more satisfying.

[peter bainbridge]

Thanks guys much appreciated, the more you think about it, the simplicity of tray dev might be the way to go...nice one......Peter

[Lachlan 717]

Picker77,

This might seem obvious, but make sure you understand the different times that are required when using roller bases.

Continuous agitation significantly reduces processing time...

The different times for continuous v periodic agitation should be on the developer paperwork (or easily found on their websites).

[tgtaylor]

One tip for 2509 reels: File a small "v" groove exactly above the center plastic tab on one side of each reel. Easy to locate with your fingertips in the dark, and makes placement of the wings quick and easy. Once you have the correct (center one of the three) plastic tab located with your fingertips, the wings snap right into place with just a little pressure.

Alternatively, snap the wings into place in the daylight. See those little tabs on both sides of the reels where the center of the the wings snap into place? You can easily feel those while loading and use them to guide the wings into their correct place.

[peter bainbridge]

Cancel the Jobo, buy four 8x10 plastic trays (with dimpled bottoms), and some wood cloths pins (or stainless film clips). It's easier and more satisfying.

Sorry Bill..cloth pins.? not familiar with term.?

[Lachlan 717]

Sorry Bill..cloth pins.? not familiar with term.?

Seppo for pegs.

[Bill_1856]

clothes pins (cheap but effective way to clip LF negatives to a clothes line while they dry).

[peter bainbridge]

Thanks Bill.....Peter

[David Aimone]

I'm reviving this thread with a question about dilution. I've been using D-76 at a 1:1 dilution ratio. In the massive development chart, it specs 1:1 or 1:3 for a longer time.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of using different dilution/time combinations?

[David Schaller]

A more dilute solution,for a longer time, and less agitation, gives you more flexibility. If you are off by a bit in your timing, it won't make a huge difference. Also, most importantly, it gives you an easy way to do N-1, and N-2 development. For example, I do D-76 1:3 for 12 minutes for N, 10 minutes for N-1, 8 minutes for N-2. Then I go to an even more dilute solution, and so on. This is for traditional silver printing.
Dave

[Jay DeFehr]

Peter,

I hope you won't mind a question about your choice of film and developer. Why use TXP and a developer that requires an EI of 100? Why not use an ISO 100 film and a normal developer, like Xtol? Is it a matter of gradation?

Ok, that was more than one question, but they share a common theme. I'm just curious.

[David Aimone]

This works okay with a jobo on a motor base?


A more dilute solution,for a longer time, and less agitation, gives you more flexibility. If you are off by a bit in your timing, it won't make a huge difference. Also, most importantly, it gives you an easy way to do N-1, and N-2 development. For example, I do D-76 1:3 for 12 minutes for N, 10 minutes for N-1, 8 minutes for N-2. Then I go to an even more dilute solution, and so on. This is for traditional silver printing.
Dave