Paper negative process help

[goamules]

OK,
I'm trying to shoot some old Kodabrome II RC paper as a paper negative. Do I know what I'm doing? No, I usually shoot wetplate, and haven't really done film developing since a college class 20 years ago.

I just did 2 sheets, and made 5 exposures by pulling the darkslide incrementally. 5 sec per strip. When I developed in Illford S, the paper remains white. When I developed a strip of scrap paper that had laid on the table under white light, it too develops nothing...it's white after 4-5 minutes.

What do I not understand?

thanks, trying to get into film slowly....after wetplate.

Garrett

[Bruce Schultz]

I wouldn't think that RC could be used for this process. I remember in the days of making paper negatives under and enlarger that fiber-based paper was essential.

[Gene McCluney]

It sounds to me like your developer for some reason is just not working. The paper left out in white light should go to complete black, if it did not, it is not being developed, even old paper will develop to black if exposed to white light for a reasonable length of time. For the purposes of your testing, I don't think RC paper would be an issue. It should generate a negative image if exposed enough in the camera, and the scrap should develop to black if exposed to white light.

[Gene McCluney]

I wouldn't think that RC could be used for this process. I remember in the days of making paper negatives under and enlarger that fiber-based paper was essential.


If the OP is going to scan his paper negative, it won't matter RC or Fiber. If the OP is going to contact his negative, the main thing is that the paper has no printing on the back or a visible watermark that could print thru.

[goamules]

Ok, I'm back and ready to try again. I just took 2 strips of the paper outside in the blazing Arizona sun for 30 seconds, and put one in the Ilford and one in the ferrous sulfate. After a couple minutes, nothing. Perhaps a tiny bit of purple to the paper, but it's basically white.

[venchka]

Grasping at straws here because I have a bushel of old Ilford paper that I plan to do the same with...

Fresh Dektol?????????????

[PaulRicciardi]

Fresh Dektol?????????????

That's my best guess...
RC shouldn't make a difference from my experiences

[Gene McCluney]

Just as a side note, if you are interested in making paper negatives, you might also consider making X-ray film negatives. The film is blue sensitive just like wet-plate, and it is cheaper than photo paper at about 27 cents per 8x10 sheet in a box of 100 sheets. You can develop it in all common film developers.

[DarkroomDan]

Just as a side note, if you are interested in making paper negatives, you might also consider making X-ray film negatives. The film is blue sensitive just like wet-plate, and it is cheaper than photo paper at about 27 cents per 8x10 sheet in a box of 100 sheets. You can develop it in all common film developers.

Hummm - sounds interesting. A few questions - Where do you buy it? What EI do you use? How do you develop yours? Seems like it would be a mite contrasty but might work well with a process that requires a negative with some attitude.

Dan

[PaulRicciardi]

Dan, there is a thread going currently about x ray film in the darkroom section

also there have been a few other threads about it, just run a search...umm here's one:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=28728&highlight=x-ray+film

If you're interested in paper negatives you may also be interested in paper <i>positives</i>

there's a good thread on it here:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=35169&highlight=efke+positive

I work both with dry plate and the efke positive paper, really interesting stuff

[Gene McCluney]

Hummm - sounds interesting. A few questions - Where do you buy it? What EI do you use? How do you develop yours? Seems like it would be a mite contrasty but might work well with a process that requires a negative with some attitude.

Dan

Once inexpensive online source for X-ray film is:

http://www.cxsonline.com/text/subcatalog.tmpl?command=showpage&sn=165449&category=1001&cart=12402729427188145&location=1001

I rate the CXS (brand) High Speed Blue X-ray film at approximate ISO of 200, for outside sunlit shots, and I develop for 4 minutes in X-tol straight. Contrast is quite controllable.

[DarkroomDan]

Paul and Gene, thank you for the information. I believe I will order a box of film and see what I can do with it.

Dan

[selig]

hey, i'm new to this LF thing but i've been playing with paper negatives the last few weeks. shooting onto ilford warmtone FB and then developing the neg in ilford multigrade paper dev. i've been shooting with two studio flashes at very close range to get enough light and a single strobe on full power is just cutting it. results here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/selig/3436271500/sizes/l/in/set-72157616362160707/). the neg is contact printed back to positive with the same ilford process.

yet to work out the ISO of the paper but hoping to calculate so i can flash meter for these shots.

[venchka]

Just as a side note, if you are interested in making paper negatives, you might also consider making X-ray film negatives. The film is blue sensitive just like wet-plate, and it is cheaper than photo paper at about 27 cents per 8x10 sheet in a box of 100 sheets. You can develop it in all common film developers.

Correct on all counts. However, I have these two boxes of Ilford FB MGIV (11x14 & 16x20) that are way past their prime for printing directly. Cutting a sheet of 16x20 down to a handful of 4x5 sheets and using them in the camera seemed like an interesting "alt. process" use for the paper.

selig: Try ASA 5 as a starting point for your paper speed trials.

[goamules]

I got advise that my developer must be bad. I think that's strange, because I used both some 1yr old Ilford and the Ferrous Sulfate developer I make for wetplate. How would both be bad when I can develop wetplate with them? But I'll buy some more and see....

Anything else I can try in hand today? Thanks for all the help so far.

[Gene McCluney]

I got advise that my developer must be bad. I think that's strange, because I used both some 1yr old Ilford and the Ferrous Sulfate developer I make for wetplate. How would both be bad when I can develop wetplate with them? But I'll buy some more and see....

Anything else I can try in hand today? Thanks for all the help so far.

The only reason white light exposed scrap of photo paper would not turn black in developer is either Bad Developer or Bad Paper..there are no other reasons. I have never heard of a black and white photo paper that would not develop to black in good developer when exposed to the fogging of white light. I guess it is possible, but in 40 years of darkroom experience, I have never seen it. That only leaves the developer as your problem. You admit the developer was 1 year old. I would try fresh developer. I have no experience with the Ferrous Sulfate developer used for Wet Plate. It may be that this will not work on modern photo papers, I just don't know.

[Gene McCluney]

I got advise that my developer must be bad. I think that's strange, because I used both some 1yr old Ilford and the Ferrous Sulfate developer I make for wetplate. How would both be bad when I can develop wetplate with them? But I'll buy some more and see....

Anything else I can try in hand today? Thanks for all the help so far.

I did some research on Ferrous Sulfate developer, and it seems that acetic acid is a component used, as a restrainer in this developer formula.

Acetic acid is used (in very dilute form) as a stop bath for modern film and paper developing. It is possible that the PH of the Ferrous Sulfate developer is actually so acidic that the development action is stopped as soon as it is started when trying to use it for modern gelatin emulsion paper.

So to revise my comments.

1. Ilford developer too old to work.
2. Ferrous Sulfate developer too acid to work with modern gelatin emulsion paper.

Modern developers for gelatin emulsion paper and film are alkaline. Not acid. If a developer is acidic, it will not work.

[selig]

selig: Try ASA 5 as a starting point for your paper speed trials.

Thanks, I had a go at ISO 3 (as low as my meter will go) and it seems pretty close. I was using unlabeled very expired transparency paper so who knows. Interesting results though.