Use of X-ray film: technical discussion with example images [Archive] - Page 24

Sam L

11-Nov-2020, 23:04

Hi Paul,

I'm doing a similar project, working up to 14x17 on x-ray film.

Here's a recent thread on safelights:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?160173-Darkroom-Safe-Light

I tested a few safelights at different distances from the film and found that it is far less tolerant of safelights than paper. As described in the thread, I'm currently using a red LED bounced off the rear wall of my darkroom. The light travels about 6' to the rear will and 12' back to where I am and I keep my body in front of the film when handling it. It is barely bright enough to work. I'd love to know if there is something that can be used more directly without fogging the film.

There's no problem physically cutting the stuff. A paper cutter will allow you to get straight cuts to the required size for your film holders. I have been using a guillotine style cutter but I am considering buying a rotary trimmer with good guides that can be pre-set because using the guillotine in very dim light is a little scary. That said, you are likely to scratch the film when cutting it. I have been draping tracing paper over the cutter and I am very careful to lift and place the film rather than drag it into place. I also wear rubber gloves while handling it and move it minimally. The emulsion is extremely delicate and it's on both sides. For example, gently rubbing tracing paper on it will scratch the emulsion, pushing it into your film holders will scratch the emulsion, etc.

Sam L

11-Nov-2020, 23:06

Thanks Barry! I'll test out 660nm LEDs. A brighter safelight would really make working with the film easier.

Philippe Grunchec

12-Nov-2020, 02:38

Hi Philippe,
You can find here:

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/HRU-810-FUJI-GREEN-X-RAY-FILM-8-X-10-New-Box-of-100-Sheets/170788982651?hash=item27c3d10f7b:g:IzwAAOxyi3FR5s7I

It's not so expensive when you compared with panchromatic films ...

Merci, Philippe, j'ai interrogé le vendeur à propos des frais de port qui coûtent plus cher que les films eux-mêmes : je voulais commander 5 boîtes etme demandais quel serait le prix d'envoi. Pas de réponse...

Paul Kinzer

12-Nov-2020, 12:21

Thanks, Barry and sebeluc, for the tips!

Barry: at the LED link, I see they do not include the actual dimmer. Can you tell me what you use? It's great to have a recommendation based on actual use; there are so many choices out there!

sebulec: Yes, I've read about how easy it is to scratch. X-ray film is really cheap, as long as we can still get it. Still, because it is getting harder to come by, I'd rather not waste it. I see a deal on 8x10, 100 sheets for $35. I can get two 5x7 sheets out of one 8x10, so that's less than 20 cents a sheet. I won't feel too bad about practicing at that price. And, of course, chemicals will cost much less at that size, too.

David Schaller

12-Nov-2020, 17:43

8x10 Ektascan B/RA in Pyrocat HD 1:1:200 7 minutes, bellows extension factor x5.75, 3 stops reciprocity correction.

https://i.imgur.com/V0Luldi.jpg

bnxvs

12-Nov-2020, 21:08

Carestream retina SOE in POTA developer.

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Sam L

12-Nov-2020, 22:04

Paul, keep in mind that the corners of the X-ray are curved. I like to slice them off when cutting down the negative to size. I'm not sure if that will affect your calculations, but you might lose a half inch on two opposing sides.

seezee

13-Nov-2020, 09:54

1. What is a good safelight to use with Fuji x-ray film? I read this whole thread, but that was nearly a year ago. I've tired searching, but am not succeeding in finding anything very helpful. A pointer to a thread, or actual suggestions would be great.

2. How difficult is it to cut x-ray film down? I am not seeing any 5x7 film for sale anywhere, but see good deals on other sizes. I could get 2 sheets out of one 8x10. Is this something others have done with success? Any suggestions for a specific cutter to use?

Get 2 of these bulbs and the socket adapter. Put them in a cheap clamp-on work light with reflector and point it at a white wall or ceiling.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/globe-bulbs/s11-led-bulb-75-watt-equivalent-led-globe-bulb-27-lumens/440/1477/#/attributes/13

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/household-bulb-sockets-adapters/dual-e27-base-to-e27-base-socket-adapter/2327/5670/

https://smile.amazon.com/Woods-Clamp-Aluminum-Reflector-Listed/dp/B000HHQ94C/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=clamp+on+work+light+reflector&qid=1605285768&sr=8-3

For trimming your film to size, this:

https://smile.amazon.com/Dahle-Automatic-Adjustable-Gridlines-Guillotine/dp/B000W1YNNW/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=18+e+paper+trimmer&qid=1605285918&sr=8-7

Use white adhesive labels from a label maker (e.g., Dymo) or white tape to mark your trim sizes on the paper trimmer. Lay down a clean, lint-free cloth under your cutting area so the film doesn't get scratched as it drops off the edge of the trimmer.

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Tin Can

13-Nov-2020, 11:36

As SeeZee wrote the Dahle cutters work gently and exactly

It has a soft rubber holder-downer that doesn't scratch film by not letting it slide

I have 2 for cutting film ONLY

Paul Kinzer

13-Nov-2020, 12:23

Thanks so much for the recommendations on lighting and cutters!

Sam L

15-Nov-2020, 08:44

Hey Paul & seezee, just so you know I have found those superbright LEDs to be unsafe for x-ray film unless they are very distant from the work area. I'm using them now bounced off the rear wall of the room (about 18' total travel back to the film), but they will turn the film jet black (not just a little fog) when exposed at 4 feet to the light from a single bulb. I believe they are safe for paper.

I'm going to try the longer wavelength 660nm bulbs recommended in this thread and report back.

Daniel Unkefer

15-Nov-2020, 09:04

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50348845692_0513c4e8e1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jH9ZGq)Kodak 1A Grey Bullet Safelight 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jH9ZGq) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This one is the Lowes red LED with Kodak 1A red filter. This is 6-7 feet above my film cutting area and -ZERO nada- fog with MIN-R and HRU. Bright enough to comfortably cut film with no issues whatsoever. Thanks to Jason Lane for steering me to this thingee. Not inexpensive but it works great. I think Jason uses this to coat his ASA 25 Speed dry plates. His old safelight would fog the high speed plate emulsion. So if it works for coating, it will work for loading and developing.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50348848932_38f030f047_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jHa1Eh)Kodak 1A Grey Bullet Safelight 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jHa1Eh) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

And this second one is 6-7 feet above my developer tray and again -ZERO nada- fogging of HRU, MINR, and Ilford 50 ASA Ortho. Routinely I go as long as twenty minutes in the dev tray, lifting the neg out of the cesco flat bottomed tray by the dental clips, to carefully inspect the deep shadow areas.

This is the red 3w LED from Lowes. Road tested by me.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Energetic-Watt-EQ-A19-Red-LED-Light-Bulb/1000623747

Daniel Unkefer

15-Nov-2020, 10:18

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50605812911_92433e810f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k6S26H)Loading 13 6.5x9 Makina Holders HRU (https://flic.kr/p/2k6S26H) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I have a lot of old sheets of 6.5cmx9cm sheet film in a variety of flavors. I used a sheet of this vintage stuff to set up a "fence" for cutting the Fuji HRU XRAY with my Rototrim cutter. After I cut down a scrap sheet of HRU and test fit it, it is easy to load these dinky Makina holders. I'm doing thirteen to start and that's a good amount to carry around with my Makina II, my favorite Makina. Cool thing is I can shoot handheld, about 1/100 at f6.0 in full sun with yellow Makina filter. Plaubel used to call the Makina "The World's smallest Large Format Camera". I will agree with that :)

Paul Kinzer

15-Nov-2020, 14:11

I'm planning, too, to give the 660nm LEDs a try. They actually look almost identical to the LED lights my son made for our public observatory. He was ten then, and is now a 19-year-old engineering student. I'll bounce some ideas off of him and maybe make my own dimmable lighting units. Or I might order one of the assembled units linked to up-thread. I got a nice response from the seller when I wrote to them with some questions. If I make my own, it will be for two reasons: I like making my own stuff, and I'm mostly broke, so saving money is both necessary and very satisfying.

I also have a rotary cutter on the way. It's supposed to be here tomorrow. Being me, I scrounged around till I found a cheap, used one on eBay. It looks new in the photos, and you can still get new blades for it, so I'm happy.

I wouldn't be working on any of this if it weren't for all the folks here who are making such beautiful images, and sharing their experiences with all the rest of us. Thanks again!

Sam L

16-Nov-2020, 08:40

I haven't tested the Lowe's bulb so this is just a guess, but based on my experience with two other red LEDs and HR-U film, I think 1A red filter you have in front of the bulb might be important.

Daniel Unkefer

16-Nov-2020, 09:10

Basically it is 2X the concentration of red filtering. A friend called it "double-safe". I suspect that's about right.

This thingee is totally safe in my experience. No fog even at twenty minutes and fairly close exposure.

Why reinvent the wheel? :)

Sam L

16-Nov-2020, 09:27

I hear you about not re-inventing the wheel, but for me anyway, I don't have the safelight fixture and gel that you have. It would be convenient to have a bare bulb that just works for all of the different mediums.

ericantonio

16-Nov-2020, 11:57

I'm not re-inventing the wheels either. I just loaded 3 holders with the Fuji HR-U yesterday and I was thinking of all sorts of ways to try to develop. A lot of McGuyver stuff. But I broke down and bought 2 cesco flat bottom and 1 larger one for stop/washing trays. Can't wait. Now I'm bumming that I gave away my safelight a couple of months ago thinking "heck, I'm not printing anymore, I don't need that"

Vaughn

16-Nov-2020, 12:12

Nice site with graphs of the filters' wavelength transmissions... http://real-photographs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ti0845-1.pdf

"Double filtering" is an interesting concept. I suppose what happens is that it would just reduce the amount of safe light available -- all the unsafe wavelengths would be blocked by the first 'filter', leaving nothing for the second filter to do but block out some more of the safe wavelengths.

Edited to agree with TC's advice on tray size. I have an early beautiful 8x10 image/print (below...not on x-ray film) that someone recently re-pointed out the uneven lighting due to probable surge marks on the negative (greater development noticable on one end of the neg). Damn...still love the print, but can't sell it. I could re-mat to cover up a 1/2 on the bottom of the vertical 8x10, but damn...I dislike doing that! I'll just keep it on my wall, enjoy it, and this winter, I'll take the 11x14 to the same spot and play with the light there again! 11x14s get developed in 14x18 trays. Do it right the first time!

Tin Can

16-Nov-2020, 12:20

Some suggest developing any film in one size up tray, meaning 8X10 is developed in 11x14 tray

Helps eliminate surge

I always use one size up

I'm not re-inventing the wheels either. I just loaded 3 holders with the Fuji HR-U yesterday and I was thinking of all sorts of ways to try to develop. A lot of McGuyver stuff. But I broke down and bought 2 cesco flat bottom and 1 larger one for stop/washing trays. Can't wait. Now I'm bumming that I gave away my safelight a couple of months ago thinking "heck, I'm not printing anymore, I don't need that"

Sam L

16-Nov-2020, 13:28

That's a nice photo. Sometimes developing defects add character to art.

Paul Kinzer

16-Nov-2020, 18:01

Some suggest developing any film in one size up tray, meaning 8X10 is developed in 11x14 tray

Helps eliminate surge

I always use one size up

I've wondered about that. Thanks for the pointer. I've used drums for the 5x7 I've done so far, but thought about ordering trays for the x-ray to practice for eventual 14x17. I'll get 8x10 trays for the 5x7.

Should I opt for the smooth-bottomed ones? I've read that the grooves in most are scratch-prone.

Jim Noel

17-Nov-2020, 08:04

I use smooth bottom trays with all x-ray film.

jmdavis

17-Nov-2020, 09:39

ericantonio

17-Nov-2020, 17:40

I worried about surge marks with the SP-810 and the UM-MA but so far my agitation method seems to have worked. Each agitation, I lift first from a different side of the tray moving in a counter- clockwise pattern. Also each agitation I make sure that I get one side agitation and one front or back agitation. Then again this is for 18x24cm film so it is a bit smaller anyway.

Good to know thanks. I have the 4x5 version of this. I emailed Tim and he said they haven't done extensive testing with 2 sided. I'll probably get this later on maybe next year.

I think this year, I need to save for an Intrepid so I can actually hike or something with my 8x10. You know...lockdown fun.

Tin Can

17-Nov-2020, 20:57

Agree

I use smooth bottom trays with all x-ray film.

Barry Kirsten

17-Nov-2020, 21:30

Hi Paul,

The driver is from the same seller. I used this one for use with a dimmer: https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-Dimming-LED-Driver-15-24x1W-Power-Supply-Lamp-Light-Bulb-E27-15W-18W-20W-24W/392246227839?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
If you don't want a dimmer a different driver is required (not sure why, but a dimmer will not work with a non-dimming driver). I just used a common low wattage in-line dimmer such as you might use with a table lamp. Works perfectly for me.

Barry: at the LED link, I see they do not include the actual dimmer. Can you tell me what you use? It's great to have a recommendation based on actual use; there are so many choices out there!

Paul Kinzer

18-Nov-2020, 10:32

Hi Paul,

The driver is from the same seller. I used this one for use with a dimmer: https://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-Dimming-LED-Driver-15-24x1W-Power-Supply-Lamp-Light-Bulb-E27-15W-18W-20W-24W/392246227839?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
If you don't want a dimmer a different driver is required (not sure why, but a dimmer will not work with a non-dimming driver). I just used a common low wattage in-line dimmer such as you might use with a table lamp. Works perfectly for me.

Great; thanks!

My 8x10 film arrived today, I've ordered the deep red LEDs, the driver, and will get a dimmer at a brick and mortar store.

I think I'm going to go to Goodwill and look for glass casserole dishes to use for the developing trays. We have a 7x10 one here at home that seems ideal. I'm kind of shocked at the cost of the trays sold for photography! Even used ones are unreasonably priced, in my opinion, for what they are.

ericantonio

18-Nov-2020, 11:15

Great; thanks!

My 8x10 film arrived today, I've ordered the deep red LEDs, the driver, and will get a dimmer at a brick and mortar store.

I think I'm going to go to Goodwill and look for glass casserole dishes to use for the developing trays. We have a 7x10 one here at home that seems ideal. I'm kind of shocked at the cost of the trays sold for photography! Even used ones are unreasonably priced, in my opinion, for what they are.

Yah, I was thinking about casserole dishes as well. Good thinking. They are heavy though. And what if the wifey decides to make a tuna caserole one day and you need to process?

koraks

18-Nov-2020, 11:17

Plastic storage boxes are both cheaper and less heavy. I use them for practically all my paper and sheet film development when using trays.

Paul Kinzer

18-Nov-2020, 20:36

Yah, I was thinking about casserole dishes as well. Good thinking. They are heavy though. And what if the wifey decides to make a tuna caserole one day and you need to process?

I found one today at Goodwill, and it is mine: Hand's off 'wifey'!

I considered plastic, but wasn't sure if certain plastics might be chemically problematic. I also thought that glass would stay smooth, while plastic might get scratch-inducing scrapes and gouges after use and storage. But, when I go to the 14x17, I'll look harder at plastic.

ericantonio

18-Nov-2020, 23:07

I found one today at Goodwill, and it is mine: Hand's off 'wifey'!

I considered plastic, but wasn't sure if certain plastics might be chemically problematic. I also thought that glass would stay smooth, while plastic might get scratch-inducing scrapes and gouges after use and storage. But, when I go to the 14x17, I'll look harder at plastic.

Kitchen stores have something called bain marie trays. usually full size,half size, quarter size. They are usually stainless steel. Maybe craigslist or offerup and look at the used kitchen places going out of ---yikes--covid-out-of-buisiness. :(

Paul Kinzer

19-Nov-2020, 18:11

Kitchen stores have something called bain marie trays. usually full size,half size, quarter size. They are usually stainless steel. Maybe craigslist or offerup and look at the used kitchen places going out of ---yikes--covid-out-of-buisiness. :(

I did some looking around, and as far as I can tell, the largest size available is not quite big enough for 14x17 film. The dimensions of the 'full' size are 500 x 325 mm, which is about 20 x 13 inches. The corners are also very rounded, so the actual dimensions of the opening is even smaller. But maybe I just haven't searched hard enough yet. I'll keep looking for other stainless steel options, because I really like it as a permanent solution. My darkroom is going to be my upstairs bathroom, and I'll need to be able to transform it from one use to the other fairly easily/quickly. I see a hinged, shallow shelf attached to the wall above our claw-foot tub.

Stainless steel is a better choice for this, I think, than either glass or plastic. I have a book with some different solutions, and one includes a DIY fiberglass tabletop with depressions for large sheets, but my skill set would work better with steel trays secured to a plywood sheet with holes for setting the trays in. Like a very large but shallow kitchen sink.

Sam L

20-Nov-2020, 13:50

I've been struggling with scratches from handling, cutting and loading Fuji HR-U film. Some people seem to have an easy time with this while others claim that if you so much as look at the film it scratches. I'm in the latter camp. I'm mostly talking about micro scratches that you really only see when you scan or enlarge the negative or look very closely under strong light. You can get these scratches on HR-U by touching the film with your fingers, sliding it into film holders, sliding it across the paper cutter table, etc. For those who have this figured out, are we are talking about same thing? I'm going to call the fine scratching "micro scratches" to differentiate from obvious scratches.

I have been using an X-ACTO guillotine trimmer like this that I had in my studio for other art. It has served me well in the past and is of reasonable quality.
https://www.amazon.com/X-ACTO-Commercial-Square-Guillotine-Trimmer/dp/B002JGMIA8

The first problem I had was that there was a raised burr on the fixed blade at the edge of the table from use. As I slid the film into position, I left obvious scratches in the bottom emulsion across the entire film. I was able to resolve this by removing the burr with a diamond stone, which also improved cutting performance slightly.

Second problem: micro scratches from dragging the film across the clean table and holding it down to cut it. The table on this model is made of MDF coated with a smooth plastic with an inset grid. It is not rough feeling. I solved this by laying tracing paper across the table and on the counter below, which has the added benefit of keeping things clean. FWIW, tracing paper is also capable of scratching HR-U if you rub them together, but I am more careful to place the film nearly in position rather than slide it into position now.

Third problem: no backstop to set the size of cut. I tried taping a 30/60/90 triangle to the table as a guide and later clipping a large binder clip on the top rail. Both work but are finicky to set in the near dark.

Fourth problem: holding the film in place while cutting. My film is 14x17 so I need to hold it still for long cuts and it doesn't have any kind of provision for this. Putting a ruler or any other surface that might scratch the film down on it is a non-starter for micro-scratches. The best I came up with is to rest my forearm on the film while making the cut, though this gets skin oil on it. With this only about 80% of my 4x5 pieces are perfect. Good thing it's so cheap.

Fifth problem: micro scratches from handling. Nitrile gloves seem to fix this.

Sixth problem: The film can scratch itself, so I am careful to stack the cutoffs neatly and only once.

Sam L

20-Nov-2020, 14:12

In my hunt for a better solution than my X-ACTO guillotine for cutting X-ray film, I have a couple of paper cutter reviews to share.

First I tried a fancy Dahle 552 rotary trimmer:
https://www.amazon.com/Dahle-552-Professional-Self-Sharpening-Engineered/dp/B082NVFVN3

209770

This is a nice tool and I especially appreciated its adjustable backstop and build quality. It makes nice cuts in paper and film. However, it is a bit of a counter top space hog. It is designed to cut in both directions, so the cutting head moves entirely beyond the cutting area by about 4" on both ends. The other problem I had with it was that I couldn't figure out how to load the film into it without dragging the film over the backstop, across the table and under the clear plastic guard. I know from experience that this will create micro scratches on HR-U. Finally, the plastic guard, which applies downward pressure when you cut is not soft and may also scratch the film. Here you can see that you have to load the film over the backstop and under the clear/bluish hard plastic guard:

209773

Given the high cost and drawbacks, I decided to return this cutter and look for a better guillotine.

Today, I got the Dahle 18e Vantage, which is really cheap at $57 on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dahle-Automatic-Adjustable-Gridlines-Guillotine/dp/B000W1YNNW

This is a metal bodied cutter with a soft rubber (squeegee material) foot that comes down with the blade to hold the film in place. Amazon has a little video of it in action. I like that the rubber is unlikely to scratch the film and it is able to hold the film in place for long straight cuts. The cuts in film are nice and smooth. The metal body is solid and strong while being a bit lighter than my smaller wood X-Acto. For film cutting, the blade and foot get entirely out of the way, allowing me to place the film rather than drag it or slide it into place.

However, it has two flaws. First, the cutter arrived out of square, possibly enough that film cut using it wouldn't fit into a film holder. I was going to return it but I figured out that you can loosen 4 screws on the underside of the top rail and adjust it. It took about 30 min of fiddling but it is now square. Second issue is the terrible backstop, which is bowed to the point where film will slide under it rather than stopping in position and so flimsy that it doesn't really hold things square to the top rail. The one from the fancy 552 model is dramatically better. I have no fix for this. I thought I might be able to buy a 552 model stop (they are available for $20) but I wasn't sure if it would fit the rail since the 552 stop did not fit my X-ACTO guillotine rail. Since the table is metal, I am now using a 30-60-90 triangle held down with some magnets, which is easy to adjust in dim light.

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Sam L

20-Nov-2020, 14:32

I've also been struggling to find a bare red safe light bulb that won't fog HR-U. I have tried four so far with no success. For posterity here's what doesn't work:

- Halco 11W Red Safelight Bulb, $4.29 from Freestyle. Unsafe at any distance for HR-U.
https://www.freestylephoto.biz/12622-Halco-11-Watt-S14-Red-Safelight-Bulb

- A single red LED in my headlamp pointing towards the ceiling is safe (left negative). Direct exposure to the LED at about 1 foot is unsafe but only the direct beam (right negative).
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- Super Bright LEDs 7.5W Red globe (E27-R8-G). Mostly unsafe. This bulb will heavily fog HR-U in all but the most dim / distant reflected use. Direct exposure will render the film totally black. I am currently still using this one but it is bounced off the rear wall of the darkroom for a total travel of about 15' before it gets back to the work area. For reference, it is safe when it is so dim that you can only barely see well enough to handle the film after 10 minutes of eye adjustment. I really do not like using the paper cutter in these conditions.
https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/globe-bulbs/s11-led-bulb-75-watt-equivalent-led-globe-bulb-27-lumens/440/1477/

- Byingo LED Grow Light Bulb - 25W 660nm All Deep Red Spectrum. $15 ea on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Pack-Byingo-Grow-Light-Bulb/dp/B07ZFM4NKF

These are totally unsafe for HR-U. They are extremely bright because they are meant to be grow lights. Here you can see the control, which was only handled w/ super bright LEDs bounced off the rear wall (left); a Byingo bulb similarly bounced off the rear wall for 1 min exposure (center); direct exposure at 1 foot for 1 minute exposure (right).

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Sam L

20-Nov-2020, 14:41

Paul, you can kind of use anything that will hold water and put glass in the bottom if it's not smooth. It has to be /really/ smooth if you're going to let the wet emulsion touch it.

I have moved entirely to vertical tanks and film hangers, which I have found to have a lot of benefits over trays: the vertical tanks can do multiple at the same time; with proper agitation technique, the chemicals are exposed to both emulsions equally; except for the edges, no part of the emulsion touches anything ever during development.

If you're going to build or buy something, I suggest film hangers and vertical tanks.

Here's Mat Marrash running through his workflow, which is pretty much where I'm landing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1OIw-8-Zs4&ab_channel=MatMarrash

Tin Can

20-Nov-2020, 14:46

I bought three SS 1/2 size chafing trays from Costco, very cheap

I use them only for 7x17

I think it's the same as 20X13

I did some looking around, and as far as I can tell, the largest size available is not quite big enough for 14x17 film. The dimensions of the 'full' size are 500 x 325 mm, which is about 20 x 13 inches. The corners are also very rounded, so the actual dimensions of the opening is even smaller. But maybe I just haven't searched hard enough yet. I'll keep looking for other stainless steel options, because I really like it as a permanent solution. My darkroom is going to be my upstairs bathroom, and I'll need to be able to transform it from one use to the other fairly easily/quickly. I see a hinged, shallow shelf attached to the wall above our claw-foot tub.

Stainless steel is a better choice for this, I think, than either glass or plastic. I have a book with some different solutions, and one includes a DIY fiberglass tabletop with depressions for large sheets, but my skill set would work better with steel trays secured to a plywood sheet with holes for setting the trays in. Like a very large but shallow kitchen sink.

ericantonio

21-Nov-2020, 12:32

whoop! Got my "flat bottom girls" in today from B&H. Nice quality on those. Not like old school ceramic quality but not bad. I'll mark it "ONLY FOR XRAY".

I will develop Fuji HR-U today. Afternoon sun, pinhole camera, rated I don't know...50? I think I had 2 minute exposures in afternoon light.

I'm thinking PMK, 1:2:100 21 degrees. 14 minutes?

I am metering, shooting, and processing for future PT/PD prints so if you have anything "punchy" you can recommend I'm all ears (or eyes in internet). I can make D76, I have hc110, and I have PMK.

Tin Can

21-Nov-2020, 13:22

as the Sun fails in season, compensate for Sunny 16

ericantonio

21-Nov-2020, 15:25

as the Sun fails in season, compensate for Sunny 16

Not sure what you mean but this is what I pictured as you were saying that.

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ericantonio

21-Nov-2020, 15:29

I bought three SS 1/2 size chafing trays from Costco, very cheap

I use them only for 7x17

I think it's the same as 20X13

I just got back from Ikea and I saw these, I thought maybe if someone was looking for 8x10 sizes I think these should work.

https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/kuggis-box-with-lid-white-60280205/

Fr. Mark

21-Nov-2020, 18:09

Someone can do a better job on this than I can, but the sunny 16 rule is a way of estimating exposures. Xray film will make you think your light meter is lying to you, however, or the estimation rule is wrong. It is only Blue or Blue and Green sensitive so the yellow, orange, and red light late in the day (the golden hour for our color photography friends) will not meter correctly and you'll get under-exposure due to lack of light at the right wavelengths. The closer you get to sunrise or sunset the more exposure you'll need. Warm incandescent (or LED or fluorescents i.e. ones with lower color temperature) will also need a LOT more exposure (maybe 4 stops, maybe more, I don't have my notes here) to come out "right."

ericantonio

21-Nov-2020, 21:45

Jim Noel

22-Nov-2020, 10:20

Ah okay, I see. Does it matter if I do reflective metering or incident reading? I usually use a an old Sekonic one, the studio type one. I'm just used to it.

The type of meter doesn't really matter in this case. It has to do with the percentage of red and blue+green wavelengths available at time of exposure. The more red, the more exposure needed. A good indicator is to reflect the light off the recording side of a CD or DVD. Some practice viewings at various times of day will help make proper decisions.

ericantonio

22-Nov-2020, 19:39

The type of meter doesn't really matter in this case. It has to do with the percentage of red and blue+green wavelengths available at time of exposure. The more red, the more exposure needed. A good indicator is to reflect the light off the recording side of a CD or DVD. Some practice viewings at various times of day will help make proper decisions.

Ahhh, making all sense now!!

Okay, processed 3 sheets. Well, turned out to be 4. I didn't realize I had 2 sheets in one slot. Amateur hour! Turns out that was the best shot too.

First one, yep, I thought I was careful and got scratched
2n'd one success!! Zero scratches. Until I took it out of wash, and noticed it was 2 sheets. Had to dump one of them in fixer fast cause that was the best one. And handling that one give me a couple of scratches
3rd one, not bad.

I think they scratch, for me at least, is in the handling after fixer just looking at it and stuff like that. I have to remember, it's cooked, it's baked, I can't go back and stick it in the oven, it is what it is and I'll refrain from looking until I hang it up!

I wound up doing 2 min exposure pinhole, sunny 1pm southern california light, 8 min hc110 B. Looked pretty dense, probably will alt print really well. Rest I did 6 min.

Daniel Unkefer

1-Dec-2020, 06:44

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50667444498_f947185ab1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kciU2h)Handheld HRU 200th F6 Med Yello MicX (https://flic.kr/p/2kciU2h) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Made another couple tests yesterday, decreasing exposure by one and two stops.

Handheld Fuji HRU Plaubel Makina II 1/200 f6.0 Plaubel Yellow filter Mic-X 12 minutes 5x7 Aristo #2 RC print Omega DII Omegalite Diffusion head Multigrade dev. Plaubel Makina sheet film holder was utilized.

Key Day Full Sun 3:00 EST. Great I can shoot handheld with XRay film! :) The Makina II is getting to be my favorite Makina. Plaubel used to market it as "The World's Smallest View Camera". I will agree with those sentiments after using it for a while.

vnukov_pk

8-Dec-2020, 06:10

13x18 SFM Mammo MF film, D23 dev, lomo reprolens 300/10
https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/12/780e286d38f670c75809825602fa7043.jpg (https://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=780e286d38f670c75809825602fa7043)

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/12/d6d9ce69ca1cc265a6134a77135b0a5b.jpg (https://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=d6d9ce69ca1cc265a6134a77135b0a5b)

13x18 SFM Mammo MF film, d23 dev, xenar 210 lens
https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/12/ba799824050696723eef908fab9cb0c8.jpg (https://hostingkartinok.com/show-image.php?id=ba799824050696723eef908fab9cb0c8)

Daniel Unkefer

8-Dec-2020, 07:52

Very nice! ^^^ I like 13x18cm I am just getting started with it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50695156496_c150b49038_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2keKVQm)Two 13x18cm HRU in 11x14 Tray (https://flic.kr/p/2keKVQm) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Presently the largest size HRU i have attempted has been 4x5 which I enlarge to 8x10. Now I am getting started with 13x18cm for several reasons. I have a number of original 13x18cm Sinar Norma film holders, and cutting down an 8x10 sheet, I can get one 13x18cm, and three 6.5x9 sheets with just a small amount of scrap left. So I get all that for 32 cents a sheet which to me is a great deal. Presently I have loaded six 13x18cm holders and it is pretty easy to do for me. Never any scratches yet while the film is dry. When it is wet that is another story.

So now I have ordered four 11x14 Cesco trays from B&H cause I am moving up in film size. Extra XRay dental clips are required as you can see. The purpose is twofold; A) Keep the sheet completely off the bottom of the tray where is will smudge or abrade during agitation. B) Keep the sheets from moving around when agitating, bumping into each other which causes major scratching. Touch this stuff when it is wet, and it's game over. With a bit of due diligence and extra care you can produce perfect sheets without any scratching whatsoever. Yes I scratch sheets but that's my fault not the film.

I can fit 16x20 trays in my Delta Sink but there is no room for washing and big is very cumbersome. Large Deep tanks are in my future but not quite yet. Cesco trays are great for small film runs.

I'm using Paterson trays to mock up and to see how the sink fills up. I think I have enough room for this including washing.

vnukov_pk

10-Dec-2020, 01:33

What got me in this sfm mammo film is that it does not get scratches. Of course I handle it with care, but it behaves like normal bw film.

Philippe Grunchec

10-Dec-2020, 05:04

What got me in this sfm mammo film is that it does not get scratches. Of course I handle it with care, but it behaves like normal bw film.

Where do you buy this film?
Thx,

vnukov_pk

12-Dec-2020, 07:53

Russian medical supplies web shop. I believe sfm medical is German, but I cannot find any xray film on its website

Philippe Grunchec

12-Dec-2020, 10:14

Russian medical supplies web shop. I believe sfm medical is German, but I cannot find any xray film on its website

Can you provide a link for Russian medical supplies web shop? Thx!
BTW, is this film one sided?

vnukov_pk

12-Dec-2020, 23:14

https://rentgen.biz/rentgenovskaya-plenka/mammograficheskaya-plenka/sfm-mammo/mf-18x24cm/
It is single sided. i do not think they can send film abroad, but try.

Philippe Grunchec

13-Dec-2020, 04:57

https://rentgen.biz/rentgenovskaya-plenka/mammograficheskaya-plenka/sfm-mammo/mf-18x24cm/
It is single sided. i do not think they can send film abroad, but try.

Thx!

HMG

13-Dec-2020, 12:52

I've been contemplating try xray film in a pinhole camera. But using double sided film seems to entail a lot more work or a lot more risk of scratches. This source says that "Films used in cameras and in selected radiographic procedures, such as mammography, have one emulsion layer and are called single-emulsion films." Which suggests that most (if not all) mammography film is single sided.

http://www.sprawls.org/ppmi2/FILMSEN/

Daniel Unkefer

13-Dec-2020, 13:14

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50371891118_9c12373511_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jKc7im)MINR XRay Test 1 210mm Componon F22 Two Pops C171 (https://flic.kr/p/2jKc7im) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

18x24cm Kodak MIN-R Mammography film cut into 4x5s. Sinar Norma Broncolor C171 with Broncolor Pulso Beauty Dish. Two strobe pops with Sinar Norma Shutter, multiple pops are no problem. Schneider chrome Componon lens at F22. Lisco Regal 4x5 film holder
Legacy Mic-X film dev 8 mins at 68F Aristo 8x10 #2 RC print Multigrade dev

All the Kodak 18x24 Mammo Min-R I have acquired is outdated circa 2010. Still it does not seem affect it in the slightest. I would think freezing it should preserve it well? Better grab it if you can find it :)

Wayne

26-Dec-2020, 09:39

refresh my memory, as I've never removed one side of the emulsion. Are people halving their EI when they do that, or how are they compensating for that loss of density?

seezee

27-Dec-2020, 09:15

refresh my memory, as I've never removed one side of the emulsion. Are people halving their EI when they do that, or how are they compensating for that loss of density?

Based on previous posts referencing removal of one side of emulsion, yes.

Corran

31-Dec-2020, 07:55

I never did that when removing one side.

Wayne

31-Dec-2020, 16:59

I never did that when removing one side.

Oh?

afotandolaciudad

2-Jan-2021, 04:52

Tin Can

2-Jan-2021, 07:04

I have not, you may be the first

Try it and report!

Hello to everyone from Spain and Happy covid-free new year.
I've never posted but reading the forum for long time, this thread for more than a year.
Finally I was gifted some X-ray film: Fuji Super RX and Fuji Super HR-U.
I'm planning to fun with it in the darkroom. I want to try get large internegatives for enlarging color slides to B&W by contact printing. Only for fun and learn. There are lot of handicaps: reds in the slides, high contrast, scratches...
One question: do anyone try to spray clear lacquer (nitro lacquer seems to dry fast and is very clear) on top of one or both emulsion sides in order to avoid scratches?

Enviado desde mi M2003J15SC mediante Tapatalk

Fr. Mark

2-Jan-2021, 22:45

Hello to everyone from Spain and Happy covid-free new year.
I've never posted but reading the forum for long time, this thread for more than a year.
Finally I was gifted some X-ray film: Fuji Super RX and Fuji Super HR-U.
I'm planning to fun with it in the darkroom. I want to try get large internegatives for enlarging color slides to B&W by contact printing. Only for fun and learn. There are lot of handicaps: reds in the slides, high contrast, scratches...
One question: do anyone try to spray clear lacquer (nitro lacquer seems to dry fast and is very clear) on top of one or both emulsion sides in order to avoid scratches?

Enviado desde mi M2003J15SC mediante Tapatalk

I don't think coating with nitrocellulose would work. It is waterproof once dry, so you would not be able to develop the films. Maybe it could be used as a protectant after development, but the dry emulsion is pretty tough, I think. And, I think most people who get scratches get them while processing the films, that is to say the emulsion is soft when wet. Also, nitrocellulose is very fast burning and very easy to light on fire. It is an ingredient in modern smokeless gunpowder. I don't want it in my house and so I don't do wet plate.

j.e.simmons

3-Jan-2021, 06:21

I’ve minimized scratches using Pyrocat developers. I think any developer that tans and hardens the emulsion would do the same.

afotandolaciudad

3-Jan-2021, 08:51

I was thinking in coating after processing, not before. So would be necessary to develop the film with extreme care. When dry I would spray one or both layers. This could help to handle the negatives in the contact-printing phase.

I wouldn't be worried about burning of a few nitrocellulose coated films. In the past this happens with a great amount of film with nitro base stored in bad conditions. Intense hot of projection lights didn't help too.

Enviado desde mi M2003J15SC mediante Tapatalk

Corran

3-Jan-2021, 09:02

In my experience the fragility is mostly while the emulsion is wet.

Jim Noel

3-Jan-2021, 15:44

I agree with Corran.

Wayne

3-Jan-2021, 17:56

I agree with Corran.

What, that its fragile mostly when wet? That's not exactly surprising, its also when most scratches happen. I've rarely scratched a negative after processing was finished.

Daniel Unkefer

10-Jan-2021, 21:49

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50823673491_d70718234c_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kr7BsB)Abandoned Orchard Apple Tree HRU Maki 210 Heliar (https://flic.kr/p/2kr7BsB) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

In my neighborhood there are remnants of the apple orchard that stretched for a good distance many decades ago. At the back of my property is one of the original trees, now gone wild.

Plaubel Makiflex Standard, 210mm Makiflex Auto Iris Heliar, Fuji XRAY HRU 4x5" cut from 8x10. Grafmatic Film Back, Sinar 103mm Glass Disc Yellow Green. 1/15 at F5.6 Legacy Mic-X 18 minutes at 60C. Aristo #2 8x10 Omega DII Omegalite Diffusion Head Multigrade dev

lanactoor

11-Jan-2021, 23:26

On a lark I did a double-exposure onto a sheet of 8x10 Fuji HR-U from 2 similar (but slightly offset) half-35mm negatives during my last printing session. Tossed the sheet into a flat bottomed tray of stale xtol for 15-20 minutes with irregular agitation. Not exactly crisp, but it's another reminder to me of why I like experimenting with xray.

211396

Bucky

20-Jan-2021, 11:03

lanactoor

20-Jan-2021, 21:24

Can you share details regarding exposure?
I tried to make inter-positive, its hard to determine correct exposure to enlarge and make positive image.

I don't have a timer so I just flicked the switch powering my enlarger quickly. 60W incandescent light source through a 50mm lens. Not sure of the f number used.

The enlarger head was quite far from the baseboard as this was a half-frame 35mm -> 8x10 enlargement. If your problem is overexposure even at minimum aperture, you can use a longer focal length lens to move the enlarger head higher or use a lower wattage bulb. Focusing becomes more difficult, but once the light reaching the film is faint enough exposure times will align more closely with paper and you can use more familiar printing techniques for determining exposure.

Edit: If you really want accuracy you'll need not only a timer but also some sort of metering system or at least a measurement of the intensity of light reaching the film at a given enlargement configuration. Weird ortho film curves and reciprocity aside, there are many such discussions wrt devices such as the Ilford EM10 on the net.

michael_wi

21-Jan-2021, 21:18

... some sort of metering system or at least a measurement of the intensity of light reaching the film

As a suggestion you can use an incident light meter as in this video at 4:52.

https://youtu.be/4aNysC-X8T0?t=292

Tin Can

22-Jan-2021, 02:18

Timer good

Test strips ARE necessary

Sam L

23-Jan-2021, 09:51

I chose Fuji HR-U Green (which is both green and blue sensitive) because it seemed like the "normal" one that people were using for photography, and am getting some pretty normal looking images from it. It is grainy compared to normal film but oh so cheap. You could always use a filter to block green light but I think you won't. My test showed it to be ISO 80 under high-CRI LED light. Under warmer light, it will be slower because it is not sensitive to red.

I think your choice of a pyro developer is a good one. I also chose a pyro developer (510 Pyro) for cost reasons, but for UV contact printing processes with x-ray film, they make sense for other reasons:

Yellow staining of denser areas increases effective contrast with regard to UV light while having less effect on traditional photo paper / scanning. This means you can still scan and traditionally print your alt process negatives.
Tanning hardens the emulsions, making these obnoxiously delicate films easier to work with (after developing)

Compared to standard film, the Fuji Green HR-U development times are very fast. I imagine this is to facilitate developing quickly by machine in the doctor's office. What has been working for me with 510 pyro is 1:250 dilution for 9 - 11 minutes in vertical stainless tanks on Kodak hangers.

I have found that working with this film is terribly sensitive technique. It has been a long process getting to an 8x10 negative without obvious flaws. Here are some notes from my journey:

After messing around with a bunch of bare bulb red LEDs to use as safe lights (none were safe), I finally did the obvious thing and bought an old safe light from a dentist's office off ebay. They are not expensive and they work fine. The correct safelight filter for HR-U is GBX-2, which is a dark dim red. You can find a Kodak recommended bulb wattage and distance on the interenet. Since the film is so delicate, I can't see ever being able to work with it in the dark. For example, you can't slide it around on surfaces without scratching it.
I started by cutting the film down to 4x5. It's faster / cheaper / easier to do your testing at this size and it turns out there's a bunch to be learned just by cutting the film. I tried a few paper cutters and ended up choosing the inexpensive Dahle 18e Vantage which has a soft rubber foot that comes down to hold the film while it is being cut. The foot is soft enough that it does not scratch the film and lifts entirely out of the way so you can carefully place the film rather than sliding it around. Since the bed is metal, I have been using a plastic triangle held down with magnets as a backstop to make precise repeatable cuts. Mine came slightly out of square but I was able to adjust the top rail with a screwdriver.
HR-U has branding at the edges (something about safety film) and curved corners. I can't see having these artifacts in my contact prints so I have been cutting down larger film. I trim the edges off 14x17 sheets and then cut two 8x10s and three 4x5s from each sheet. I don't think there's any meaningful cost savings to be had from this but it is flexible and removes the rounded corners and branding.
It's easy to scratch the film while cutting it, loading it into film holders, and onto hangers. I now wear clean rubber gloves and slot the film in as close to its final position is possible rather than sliding it around. By minimizing touching and movement I have mostly been able to eliminate scratches, though still get the occasional surprise.
Since the emulsion is on both sides, anywhere that touches the emulsion during development will be slightly underdeveloped. The Carr film hangers have a thick top bar with a wire clip on it. The top bar covers more than just the margin of the film. On normal film it would be resting against the non-emulsion side and wouldn't be an issue but for double-sided film, it is touching emulsion and creates a slightly lighter strip and can scratch that area as well. I also noticed a ghosting from the clip. I think the Kodak hangers are better for this film.
It is important not to mix hanger types. The hangers are designed to contact each other and not the film, but if you mix them you will get scratches on the back side of the film where the adjacent hanger touches it during development.
At 8x10, I found my 4x5 agitation technique produced surge marks where the pores in the Kodak hangers let fluid pass. The pores are only on one side of the hangers (again designed for single-sided film). My fix for this was to avoid crowding the tanks and to move /very/ slowly for the agitations. My current developing process is a 4 min pre-soak, dip and dunk for the first minute (alternating lift directions), one dip and dunk for each additional minute. The lifting and dunking movements are on the order of 10 seconds each, such that the first minute only has 3 dip-dunks over 60s.

David Schaller

23-Jan-2021, 13:25

Excellent post. Thank you for your effort.

Randy

23-Jan-2021, 13:55

...another reminder to me of why I like experimenting with xray.

Yes, experimenting can be rather surprising. This was one of my early, if not first attempt at using Xray film. I had use a split dark-slide with 8X10 to make 2 4X10 images on a sheet, and when I processed the film I was quite disappointed at how under exposed the negatives were, so I didn't even bother finishing the wash, just threw it in the trash. Next morning I happened to glance at it and could barely make out the image, so for the heck of it I washed it and hung it to dry - scanned the next day.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtla6ky4fqxayi1/griib.jpg?dl=1

Sam L

24-Jan-2021, 19:05

While agitating very slowly did work to reduce the surge marks from the pores in the film holders (maybe 85%) what is working even better is more agitation.

Today I tested the same "Kodak style" dip-and-dunk movement as before (lift and tip 45 deg, replace; lift and tip the other way 45 degrees and replace) but instead of a ponderous 20s dip-and-dunk, I did it in about 10 (twice as fast). Furthermore, instead of a single dip-and-dunk every minute, I did two dip-and-dunks every 30s (4x the volume).

The surge marks are now 98% gone. I can see some faint unevenness that corresponds to the pores in the sides of the film holders by scanning and making extreme adjustments to the image but the problem with surge marks coming from the bottom of the negative is completely gone. I'm not sure how it's possible to get sideways surge marks. Maybe I tipped the negatives too much during the dip-and-dunk movement.

At 8x10, I found my 4x5 agitation technique produced surge marks where the pores in the Kodak hangers let fluid pass. The pores are only on one side of the hangers (again designed for single-sided film). My fix for this was to avoid crowding the tanks and to move /very/ slowly for the agitations. My current developing process is a 4 min pre-soak, dip and dunk for the first minute (alternating lift directions), one dip and dunk for each additional minute. The lifting and dunking movements are on the order of 10 seconds each, such that the first minute only has 3 dip-dunks over 60s.

Tin Can

25-Jan-2021, 04:16

Yes variation in agitation is important to find your process

I use a Calumet Gas Burst tank system bought well used bit by bit

Got a lot of flack from some members and some still insist I am all wrong

I have shown it here on LFPF many times

j.e.simmons

25-Jan-2021, 04:33

I use a nitrogen burst system. When the nitrogen bursts, the movement of the developer is very vigorous- even violent.

Tin Can

25-Jan-2021, 05:34

A rusting Karmann Ghia (https://www.google.com/search?q=Karmann+Ghia&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS850US850&sxsrf=ALeKk01zr1s2tuLXr7et03eCuRM9QXGybQ:1611577947195&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip08fYi7fuAhVMZ80KHX-FAd8Q_AUoAXoECCsQAw&biw=1920&bih=950), sad, they all rusted!

Yes. X-Ray does scan well even with underexposure

Cool Vanity plate KG 1972, which is correct date

I had 2 of them

Yes, experimenting can be rather surprising. This was one of my early, if not first attempt at using Xray film. I had use a split dark-slide with 8X10 to make 2 4X10 images on a sheet, and when I processed the film I was quite disappointed at how under exposed the negatives were, so I didn't even bother finishing the wash, just threw it in the trash. Next morning I happened to glance at it and could barely make out the image, so for the heck of it I washed it and hung it to dry - scanned the next day.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtla6ky4fqxayi1/griib.jpg?dl=1

Randy

28-Jan-2021, 15:52

Tin Can

28-Jan-2021, 16:53

Most boxes of X-Ray are tightly sealed with black plastic, waterproof until opened

On the box there are usually symbols for temp range

I refrigerate unopened film of all kinds, I don't freeze and once opened none of it goes back in refrigerator. I never refreeze open film as I know it gets ruined, as i have found frozen unsealed film in large quantities to be total crap

Is refrigerating a new, unopened box of Xray film in anyway detrimental to the emulsion - and / or - will refrigeration help preserve the unexposed film, as it does with normal panchromatic camera film?

Just trying to decide on the best way to store the box that was delivered today, since it may be a couple years before I get to it.

Randy

28-Jan-2021, 17:25

On the box there are usually symbols for temp range
The back of the box has a thermometer indicating 50°-77° F - should I assume that is for storage, use, or both? I just don't want to pull it out of the fridge in a couple years only to discover that 35° F is detrimental to the emulsion of Xray films.

I googled and the 1st result was for Carestream film - "store 50-75 F."
Another result said "It is possible to refrigerate films for additional protection..."

Beyond that, there isn't much info...?

Tin Can

28-Jan-2021, 17:34

Why not just do as the box says, keep it in HVAC home, no refrigeration

I now Have X-Ray I bought 10 years ago, never in a fridge as its too big a box, 14X36" film size, I use it very slowly

Some here buy only out of date X-Ray and Real film as it works fine

I believe freezing and refreezing open film is insane

Meat doesn't like that either and ruins the meat

Randy

29-Jan-2021, 07:45

Rats! I don't know any more - now - than I did - then...

seezee

29-Jan-2021, 07:59

Is refrigerating a new, unopened box of Xray film in anyway detrimental to the emulsion - and / or - will refrigeration help preserve the unexposed film, as it does with normal panchromatic camera film?

Just trying to decide on the best way to store the box that was delivered today, since it may be a couple years before I get to it.

FWIW, I store mine in the freezer, factory-sealed, until I'm ready to use it. Once I open it I store it at room temperature.

Haven't had any problems so far.

Randy

29-Jan-2021, 09:46

FWIW, I store mine in the freezer, factory-sealed, until I'm ready to use it. Once I open it I store it at room temperature.

Haven't had any problems so far.

Thank you - that is worth a lot.

Tin Can

29-Jan-2021, 10:00

Freezers vary from Frost Free to Manual Defrost

New imports often fail

GE® 5.0 Cu. Ft. Manual Defrost Chest Freezer (https://www.neeleyappliance.com/products/GE-Appliances/ge/fcm5skww.html)

Andrew O'Neill

29-Jan-2021, 10:42

14x17 Pinhole; Double-sided green latitude. Developed in D-23 1+3

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50878110098_a91f3bc5a2_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kvVByN)1417 Pinhole Test Shot (https://flic.kr/p/2kvVByN) by Andrew O'Neill (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62974341@N02/), on Flickr

Tin Can

29-Jan-2021, 10:51

Like!

Pinhole size and duration?

14x17 Pinhole; Double-sided green latitude. Developed in D-23 1+3

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50878110098_a91f3bc5a2_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kvVByN)1417 Pinhole Test Shot (https://flic.kr/p/2kvVByN) by Andrew O'Neill (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62974341@N02/), on Flickr

Andrew O'Neill

29-Jan-2021, 10:59

Like!

Pinhole size and duration?

Pinhole size was about 1mm. Focal length was about 500mm. Exposure time was 25 minutes. I didn't bother with reciprocity correction as I didn't feel like standing there for an hour. Still turned out well.

Tin Can

29-Jan-2021, 11:16

Thanks, I am not having luck with 1 mm pinhole, perhaps my duration is way too short

Pinhole size was about 1mm. Focal length was about 500mm. Exposure time was 25 minutes. I didn't bother with reciprocity correction as I didn't feel like standing there for an hour. Still turned out well.

Andrew O'Neill

29-Jan-2021, 11:50

Thanks, I am not having luck with 1 mm pinhole, perhaps my duration is way too short

I'm using mr. pinhole. You can generate an f/stop and exposure chart there. https://www.mrpinhole.com/calcpinh.php

Tin Can

29-Jan-2021, 11:54

I'm using mr. pinhole. You can generate an f/stop and exposure chart there. https://www.mrpinhole.com/calcpinh.php

I use him constantly

I may have the wrong hole in my 1 mm

I am going to make my own pinholes shortly

Daniel Unkefer

8-Feb-2021, 17:05

Today three 18x24cm Sinar Norma Lisco holders arrived from Germany. These will hold 18x24cm Kodak Mammography film, going into my 8x10 Sinar Norma

XRAY is a good way to learn large format handling and procedures.

Tin Can

8-Feb-2021, 18:25

Perfect!

Daniel Unkefer

10-Feb-2021, 08:40

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50928862248_1de492f045_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kApJpS)Sinar Norma 18x24 Lisco Holders (https://flic.kr/p/2kApJpS) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Three additional original Sinar Norma era 18x24cm Lisco holders. They came from Germany good deal but no dark slides. Catlabs has replacements at what I thought was a fair price so now cleaning these up to use.

These will hold 18x24 Kodak single sided Mammography film. I have about 500 sheets in stock so set for a while. The 8x10 Norma grounglass is very accurately marked for use with these holders.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50928933843_429bb6948f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg)Sinar Norma 18x24 Lisco Holders XRAY (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

As you can see the 18x24cm Mammo XRAY stock fits perfectly in the Norma holder. This will make nice size contact prints. I envision split printing these negs. I got the idea for a contact printing light source that works with the big Multigrade filters. the idea came from Tim Layton and I followed his lead. These negs could benefit from being split-filtered to really nail the tonality.

Andrew O'Neill

16-Feb-2021, 11:38

"Sam"

14x17 double-sided green. 355mm Meniscus lens with cardboard aperture of about f/11 @ about 1sec. D-23 1+3. 10:00 20C. Flat-bottomed tray with gentle agitation every minute.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50943157263_cf9b7ddd91_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kBEZPD)Sam (https://flic.kr/p/2kBEZPD) by Andrew O'Neill (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62974341@N02/), on Flickr

Tin Can

16-Feb-2021, 11:53

Like!

"Sam"

14x17 double-sided green. 355mm Meniscus lens with cardboard aperture of about f/11 @ about 1sec. D-23 1+3. 10:00 20C. Flat-bottomed tray with gentle agitation every minute.

fotna

21-Feb-2021, 01:19

212979
5x7" FUJI Super HR-U, parodinal 1:100, Mentor Studio

Tin Can

21-Feb-2021, 06:01

Welcome to LFPF

212979
5x7" FUJI Super HR-U, parodinal 1:100, Mentor Studio

fotna

1-Mar-2021, 13:25

I have a problem. Caffenol + FUJI Super HR-U213363
White points in negative.

Tin Can

1-Mar-2021, 16:19

Try Rodinol 1/100, works great, don't overdevelop

Caffenol is for experts, so I never use it

Fr. Mark

1-Mar-2021, 18:00

I agree with Tin Can about Caffenol. If it works for you, great. However, the more reliable Caffenol recipes in my extremely limited experience have Vitamin C in them. I'm pretty sure that Vit. C is the developer or kissing cousin of the developer in Xtol. So, I suspect that the Vit. C is the developer not the coffee. Dilute Rodinal and Dilute Pyrocat HD and many other "real" developers work well for Xray film. A form of Rodinal can be made from Tylenol, too, if you want to do some seriously "alt" developing. Tylenol (Acetaminophen) is acetylated para-aminophenol (The developer in Rodinal) and the process of making it basic enough etc to perform as a developer de-acetylates it. Alternatively, just buy p-aminophenol from your favorite chemical supply store and make your own in the more normal way. Do wear safety glasses/goggles, the sodium hydroxide in it is really bad for your eyes.

seezee

2-Mar-2021, 08:00

A form of Rodinal can be made from Tylenol, too, if you want to do some seriously "alt" developing. Tylenol (Acetaminophen) is acetylated para-aminophenol (The developer in Rodinal) and the process of making it basic enough etc to perform as a developer de-acetylates it.

Mind … blown!

Andrew O'Neill

2-Mar-2021, 11:03

I've really been liking my results in D-23 1+3 (1+2 for carbon printing). I've tried caffenol, but B+F was too high for carbon printing.

fotna

2-Mar-2021, 23:42

Rodinal does a little blackening for me. Cafenol - ok black. I try simple developers - I fold d23. (Sorry - I don't know English. I write / read with a translator. The photographic experience helps :)

lanactoor

3-Mar-2021, 00:42

I have a problem. Caffenol + FUJI Super HR-U213363
White points in negative.

I've seen the same in pyrocat-hd. Use extremely dilute developer with HR-U.

https://i.imgur.com/6pCU97B.jpg

j.e.simmons

11-Mar-2021, 04:34

Has anyone tried the Adox Supersafe Darkroom Light with X-Ray film?

Daniel Unkefer

9-Apr-2021, 05:29

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51104264930_575db4055a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kRUHw3)TLR Norma 150 Comp Bottom Lens 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2kRUHw3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Testing my new Sinar Norma Twin Lens Camera. This is 150mm f5.6 Schneider chrome Componon, Fuji HRU XRAY 9x12cm

Daniel Unkefer

10-Apr-2021, 06:26

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51106792850_8a41defe22_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kS8EYS)Twin Lens Norma 300mm Componon Bottom Lens (https://flic.kr/p/2kS8EYS) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Switching out to 300mm chrome Componon pair. Like it much! :) F16 1 pop HRU XRAY 9x12cm Sinar Norma Holder Legacy Mic-X straight replenished 18 min at 62F

Daniel Unkefer

10-Apr-2021, 06:32

Switching out to 300mm chrome Componon pair. Like it much! :) F16 1 pop HRU XRAY 9x12cm Sinar Norma Holder

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51091004783_954b20f6f5_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kQJKJP)Fully Functioning Fastest Sinar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kQJKJP) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jim Noel

10-Apr-2021, 08:25

I haven't used the Adox Super Safe light. I use a good old Ruby glass bulb, as well as two 10x12 Kodak safelights with 7 watt bulb in one and a 15 watt bulb in the other. Never a problem wit any ortho film.

AdrienneCatanese

13-Apr-2021, 09:31

Long-time LURKER, brand new to LFP, joined the forum just for this thread :o

Just wanted to say hello, and say THANK YOU for the wealth of info here...a real treasure trove.

Getting started with LF, and will post some images soon: green sensitive x ray film with caffenol...

thanks for having me!

Tin Can

13-Apr-2021, 09:47

Welcome!

I need to try caffenol, only yesterday I found The Caffenol Cookbook

https://www.caffenol-cookbook.com/The%20Caffenol%20Cookbook%20&%20Bible%20-%20Recipes%20and%20Tutorials.pdf

and as you know X-Ray IS REAL FILM

AdrienneCatanese

13-Apr-2021, 10:12

Thanks Tin Can :)

and yes, not only is it REAL film, it is REAL CHEAP film compared to my precious Ilford HP5 (what i usually shoot in 35 mm)...
my feeling is: XRAY makes me able to afford shooting LF ALOT, which means more learning, which means more mastery...I tend to like the longer, more challenging, path in most areas of life... i have the patience for stuff like that!

wish me luck--will share as soon as i have some images!

AdrienneCatanese

13-Apr-2021, 11:18

Good luck. I've had a fair sharw of safelight fogging qith xray film myself. Most red leds are not safe enough due to a secondary emission peak in the green part of the spectrum. A dim red led with an additional red filter fashioned out of a sheet of rubylith film works very well in my experience.

Okay, I have a question about UNSAFE safe lights: since a lot of the red safelight filters are expensive, could I ever just put like a red glass VASE over my existing red LED "safelight" bulb...I'm a big thrifter, so I"m wondering if a $2.99 RED GLASS vase (see these all the time) placed over a less-than-safe "safelight" LED bulb would work as well as Ebaying a more costly filter...thoughts?

Corran

13-Apr-2021, 11:35

Adrienne, spend your $3 here:

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/globe-bulbs/s11-led-bulb-75-watt-equivalent-led-globe-bulb-27-lumens/440/1477/

These are perfectly safe for reasonable use at a normal distance. I tested these once by putting paper directly onto the light for 1 minute and it was only fogged slightly when developed - this is obviously unreasonably large exposure at very close range, so they are perfectly safe for normal use. I have found these to be 100% safe for developing x-ray film hanging about 4-5 feet over the trays.

Tin Can

13-Apr-2021, 11:38

I use these, in a cheap reflector and bounce off ceiling or wall, usually 3 in roomy DR

I bought 6 years ago when they were 1 watt and safer, but the 'improved' 2 watt also works

Read the reviews on their site

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/globe-bulbs/s11-led-bulb-75-watt-equivalent-led-globe-bulb-27-lumens/440/1477/#tab/Reviews

Randy

13-Apr-2021, 16:52

I use Tin Cans' suggestion above. Mine is in an old Kodak 5X7 safe-light with no glass in it, aimed up so the light bounces off the ceiling and I have a couple squares of toilet paper over it to dim / diffuse the light slightly. No fogging of my green sensitive Xray films so far.

AdrienneCatanese

13-Apr-2021, 20:04

AdrienneCatanese

13-Apr-2021, 20:04

Tin Can

17-Apr-2021, 14:53

Hopefully my last X-Ray Film advisory

I have always bought fresh X-Ray most has 2 year expiry

I don't want to ever buy off eBay, as every source seems to sell long expired

I did warn of the end of SS (single side emulsion) KODAK Ektascan, is seems all gone, once available up to 14X17 inches

The only SS I see 'new' is EU size, which I mostly cut down

I think I have bought my last.....maybe

$200 delivered a 500 sheet case of double side 8X10 last night, 4/2023 expiry

My plan is to not ever run out

Maybe I order more 7X17, which is great to cut to 5X7 or actually use for 7X17

I will wait for Monday

Japan is dumping

afotandolaciudad

18-Apr-2021, 13:21

I'm going to buy some X-ray film (kodak t-mat G) and the lot includes a processor. I have no idea how they work and if I can use it for X-ray or conventional photo film. The processor is like this:

http://www.classicxray.com/optimax-film-processor.html

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Tin Can

18-Apr-2021, 13:56

I HAD something similar, I sure hope you didn't pay much

Those WORK if run daily and serviced by a pro company, but they are dumping it all

I buy from here https://www.zzmedical.com/analog-x-ray-supplies/x-ray-film.html

X-Ray as scenic film is USUALLY processed slower and carefully

YMMV

Chauncey Walden

18-Apr-2021, 16:47

I use the red superbrightled at a distance of 8 to 10 feet to cut 8x10 Ektascan down to 3 1/4 / 4 1/4 and load it in a Graflex bagmag. No problem.

elrint

18-Apr-2021, 19:33

Hey everyone. So I'm going to be using some xray film and purchased Fuji Super RX-N Full Speed Blue Film to use with an older 19th century tailboard camera - and was wondering if anyone narrowed down the rough ISO for it? I was planning on trying at ~100 ISO but figured I'd ask around. Also, does anyone use just a light meter or do you also place a blue filter/gel in front to get a more accurate reading? Thanks.

Tin Can

19-Apr-2021, 05:45

Waste?

a sheet and test with various ASA

Sensitivity varies with time of day/color of light

I just use my meter or preferably Sunny 16

Hey everyone. So I'm going to be using some xray film and purchased Fuji Super RX-N Full Speed Blue Film to use with an older 19th century tailboard camera - and was wondering if anyone narrowed down the rough ISO for it? I was planning on trying at ~100 ISO but figured I'd ask around. Also, does anyone use just a light meter or do you also place a blue filter/gel in front to get a more accurate reading? Thanks.

David Schaller

22-Apr-2021, 17:21

How about a photo?
EKTASCAN B/RA single-sided 8x10 @80, yellow filter. Pyrocat 1:1:200 7 minutes, agitated first minute plus x1 x1 every 30 in trays.
https://i.imgur.com/CTAhE5r.jpg

maltfalc

22-Apr-2021, 21:15

Jim Noel

23-Apr-2021, 08:19

Tin Can is correct. The film speed varies with the season, time of day, clouds, clearness of atmosphere. If you determine an EI (not ISO as that never changes) to be 100 between 10 am and 2 pm in July, it may be as low as 5 or 10 early or late in the day, or in December.
The only way to learn to use this film is to use it. After a few hundred sheets, along with well kept notes, you will begin to get consistent exposures. I have a meter which measures available UV, and still rely on my over 80 years of experience with orthochromatic films. They are beautiful when used correctly, including developer and developing method.

Michael R

25-Apr-2021, 16:42

Hello,

I know zero about x-ray film but I’m interested in double sided on a clear (colourless) base. Any recommendations? A quick google led me to Cytiva Hyperfilm but I’m wondering if there is anything else people have used or are using. I don’t care about sensitivity etc. as I’ll simply be fixing unexposed film.

Thanks

michael_wi

25-Apr-2021, 17:44

Here is a spread sheet with lots of information - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YFPM2J6ADKgZDTbj8MYcyuB5BU1mKmNuWobB6Zp2GlQ/edit?usp=sharing

Jim Fitzgerald

25-Apr-2021, 23:23

All I can say is listen to Jim Noel, he has been photographing longer than most of us have been alive. Take his recommendations and use them. It is what I do. He has been at this for 83 years! He knows what he is talking about and I'm proud to call him my friend. Look up his posts and learn from him.

Tin Can

26-Apr-2021, 04:12

Never heard of it, buy some and educate us

Seems not that expensive but more $$$ than most 'normal' X-Ray

Medical X-Ray is purposely tinted blue to ease eye strain of Doctors and techs

For the permanent record, blue and green X-Ray are both BLUE

https://www.cytivalifesciences.com/en/us/shop/protein-analysis/labeling-hybridization-detection/autoradiography-films-and-accessories/amersham-hyperfilm-mp-p-00153#tech-spec-table

Hello,

I know zero about x-ray film but I’m interested in double sided on a clear (colourless) base. Any recommendations? A quick google led me to Cytiva Hyperfilm but I’m wondering if there is anything else people have used or are using. I don’t care about sensitivity etc. as I’ll simply be fixing unexposed film.

Thanks

Michael R

26-Apr-2021, 05:22

Thanks. Yes it looks to be more expensive than most, but perhaps worth looking into since it has a clear base. I think I’ll bite the bullet and get a box of their smallest size (5x7) to play with.

Not sure about the anti-scratch coating.

I’ll send them a few questions and see if they respond.

Tin Can

26-Apr-2021, 05:42

Ask about ongoing availability for years to come

We may become big buyers

Thanks. Yes it looks to be more expensive than most, but perhaps worth looking into since it has a clear base. I think I’ll bite the bullet and get a box of their smallest size (5x7) to play with.

Not sure about the anti-scratch coating.

I’ll send them a few questions and see if they respond.

Corran

26-Apr-2021, 06:12

50 sheets of this "Hyper" 5x7 is $255

Ilford Delta 100 box of 100 sheets is $233, over half the price.

Seems like a bad choice unless the intention is shooting ortho, I guess. Ilford has Ortho available in 8x10 for $155, 25 sheets, with this Hyper film at $281 for 50 sheets or $29 cheaper for the same amount (even cheaper bought in 100 sheet bulk). Just pointing it out.

Tin Can

26-Apr-2021, 06:28

Scroll down

28906844 Hyperfilm MP 18 × 24 cm Single film bag 18 × 24 cm 100 sheets 514.00 USD

50 sheets of this "Hyper" 5x7 is $255

Ilford Delta 100 box of 100 sheets is $233, over half the price.

Seems like a bad choice unless the intention is shooting ortho, I guess. Ilford has Ortho available in 8x10 for $155, 25 sheets, with this Hyper film at $281 for 50 sheets or $29 cheaper for the same amount (even cheaper bought in 100 sheet bulk). Just pointing it out.

Michael R

26-Apr-2021, 06:56

You’re right, this is ridiculous, especially for what I was going to do with it.

Never mind. Thanks everyone.

50 sheets of this "Hyper" 5x7 is $255

Ilford Delta 100 box of 100 sheets is $233, over half the price.

Seems like a bad choice unless the intention is shooting ortho, I guess. Ilford has Ortho available in 8x10 for $155, 25 sheets, with this Hyper film at $281 for 50 sheets or $29 cheaper for the same amount (even cheaper bought in 100 sheet bulk). Just pointing it out.

Jim Noel

26-Apr-2021, 07:54

I have been using X-ray film for several years and have never had a problem with the blue base. I print several alt processes including Salt, Pt/Pd, VDB, cyanotype and gum.

chris73

28-Apr-2021, 14:24

Color from x-ray film? :o

Fuji HR-U expired since 2009, "iso" 25, Caffenol-C, and my trusty 1920 Bellieni 9x12 camera.
3 combined BW pictures with blue (x2), green (x2) and yellow (x2) filter. For the yellow filter i gave 3 stops more exposure insteed of 1.

215353

and the camera with the green and blue filters that i used.
215354

Have fun!

Tin Can

28-Apr-2021, 15:51

No need for filters or 3 shots

Shoot X-Ray as usual, scan in color

Like this

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51001529760_d81d65d445_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kGQaW1)Mr Linhof Mirror Mirror 2 years ago (https://flic.kr/p/2kGQaW1) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

Color from x-ray film? :o

Fuji HR-U expired since 2009, "iso" 25, Caffenol-C, and my trusty 1920 Bellieni 9x12 camera.
3 combined BW pictures with blue (x2), green (x2) and yellow (x2) filter. For the yellow filter i gave 3 stops more exposure insteed of 1.

215353

and the camera with the green and blue filters that i used.
215354

Have fun!

Jim Noel

29-Apr-2021, 06:38

Very interesting Chris.

chris73

29-Apr-2021, 10:09

Yes Jim, i think it is interesting, but i have to find some extra film holders, so i could shoot more than one set of 3 at a time...:)

Corran

29-Apr-2021, 19:22

Someone once mentioned the idea of shooting only two sheets, and with the green sensitivity in mind, using the combined exposures and some kind of "sum/difference" layer in Photoshop to virtually create the other shot. Then combine. I don't remember the details or "how-to" of it though.

chris73

5-May-2021, 09:06

An unexpected strange behavior of Fuji HR-U when developed with intermittent agitation, but i find it interesting...
9x12, Rodenstock Eurynar, yellow filter 2x (3 stops overexposure), Caffenol-C.

215581

and something that went as expected...:)
(also the "usual" spots in highlights when Fuji is developed in Caffenol.)
215582

Tin Can

5-May-2021, 09:16

Underdeveloped

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51076031017_1deb5a7e70_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kPq1yr)2021-03-27-0005 (https://flic.kr/p/2kPq1yr) by TIN CAN COLLEGE (https://www.flickr.com/photos/tincancollege/), on Flickr

chris73

20-May-2021, 14:43

Playing with a small magnifying glass.
9x12 Fuji x-ray Caffenol-C, something like 105mm/f3.75

216037

Tin Can

20-May-2021, 14:54

Like!

Playing with a small magnifying glass.
9x12 Fuji x-ray Caffenol-C, something like 105mm/f3.75

216037

SergeiR

20-May-2021, 20:29

:) long time...

8x10 green kodan xray, gundlach radar, R09 1:100, rotary

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51192849098_81fc2d22e1_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kZJJvh)2021-05-20-0001ww (https://flic.kr/p/2kZJJvh) by Sergei Rodionov (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/), on Flickr

Tin Can

21-May-2021, 03:19

In deed, long time

Very good to see you both

Randy Moe

:) long time...

8x10 green kodan xray, gundlach radar, R09 1:100, rotary

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51192849098_81fc2d22e1_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kZJJvh)2021-05-20-0001ww (https://flic.kr/p/2kZJJvh) by Sergei Rodionov (https://www.flickr.com/photos/sergeistudio/), on Flickr

Daniel Unkefer

2-Jun-2021, 06:58

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51220120501_d0cd961bbe_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m39vkT)5x7 Sinar Norma Twin Lens HRU Ortho+Mic-X (https://flic.kr/p/2m39vkT) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Left is Ilford Commercial Ortho+ 5x7 Schneider 240mm f5.6 chrome Componon Sinar Norma Shutter 4 seconds. Lighting was 45 left Broncolor Pulso Softbox in close. Ambient lighting 250W modeling lamp only no flash. Silver fill panel 45 left just off camera. Shooting wide open with 5x7 Sinar Norma early version film holders. 5x7 Sinar Norma SInarsix TTL metering unit reads any bellows draw and filter factors, including any internal bellows flare with big lenses this can be considerable. Reading a grey card under actual lighting is what Sinarsix calls "the direct method". Most simple method to do TTL quite accurate. 103mm Yellow-green Sinar Norma glass disc added

Right is 5x7 Fuji HRU XRay film 1/2 second F5.6 Schneider 240mm f5.6 Componon wide open. Sinar Norma Automatic Shutter. Also with yellow green 103mm Sinar Norma glass disc. Interesting the tonal differences. I do like the XRAY beefy rendition, that is my preference in some cases

Good to have a choice of negatives.

Jim Noel

2-Jun-2021, 09:39

Good comparison Daniel.
Thanks for sharing.

Daniel Unkefer

3-Jun-2021, 06:14

Good comparison Daniel.
Thanks for sharing.

Hi Jim,
Thanks for commenting. This is fun.

Tin Can

3-Jun-2021, 13:04

X-Ray NEWS from the Real World

FPP I noticed today is selling Industrial X-Ray 4X5

https://mailchi.mp/filmphotographyproject/new-film-from-the-fpp-sonic25-35mm-bw-cine8-double-8-movie-film-agfa-super-8-color-positive-2705583?e=2ebeda9b97

https://filmphotographystore.com/products/4x5-sheet-film-fpp-bw-negative-x-ray-film-25-sheets

Seems it is way slower than Medical X-Ray

So our advice needs to adjust to this 'new' product

ASA is vastly less vast

maltfalc

3-Jun-2021, 16:01

michael_wi

3-Jun-2021, 23:45

yeah, they've been massively gouging people with that junk for a while now.

Do you have a source for thus film that massively cheaper than a buck a sheet? Please share! If nothing else, it would make a great light leak tester for my holder, Haven't been able to shoot, so I know they developed leaks to get back at me.....

Tin Can

4-Jun-2021, 03:52

INDUSTREX Film

https://www.carestream.com/en/us/nondestructive-testing-ndt-solutions/industrex-film

Tin Can

4-Jun-2021, 04:40

5X7 X-Ray Bargain

Fresh in date film

ZZ sells 7X17" 2X 100 sheets for $53 plus shipping

I cut into 300-5X7" 2X films making my cost 25 cents per 5X7 sheet

I assume $53 film, $22 shipping = $75

I cut one sheet at a time, and only what I need at the moment

The 2X7" leftover has many uses, including testing fixer clear time

or make a pinhole pano

maltfalc

4-Jun-2021, 08:29

Do you have a source for thus film that massively cheaper than a buck a sheet? Please share! If nothing else, it would make a great light leak tester for my holder, Haven't been able to shoot, so I know they developed leaks to get back at me..... hard to say which specific film they're repackaging, but it's double sided orthochromatic, so fuji hr-u green would be similar but at a more useful 50-100 iso. i've bought from these guys before. https://www.ebay.ca/sch/xrayexpress/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= a box of 10x12 would give you 600 4x5 sheets at 8 cents each.

Philippe Grunchec

21-Jun-2021, 02:02

Here in Europe we only have 18x24cm mammo single sided films. Where do you buy your 8x10 mammo films?
Thx in advance,

Tin Can

21-Jun-2021, 05:13

Maybe nowhere

I got a camera to match

X-Ray future may be only https://www.labtesting.com/services/nondestructive-testing/x-ray-inspection/

Here in Europe we only have 18x24cm mammo single sided films. Where do you buy your 8x10 mammo films?
Thx in advance,

afotandolaciudad

21-Jun-2021, 07:13

Kodak T-mat G/RA 18x24cm expired 2017 and cutted down to 4x5. Exposed at 100 ASA. Developed with Rodinal 1+100 semi-stand for 45 minutes. Symmar-S 210mm. Castanea sativa in Sotoparada - León (Spain)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210621/759617b853d5c2ebf5286b59173b7257.jpg

fotna

24-Jun-2021, 23:07

Here in Europe we only have 18x24cm mammo single sided films. Where do you buy your 8x10 mammo films?
Thx in advance,

In Poland, you will buy a 2-sided
https://sklep.emtim.pl/blony-super-rx-n-18-x-24-niebieskoczule-op-100sz,3,842,466

Philippe Grunchec

25-Jun-2021, 01:26

In Poland, you will buy a 2-sided
https://sklep.emtim.pl/blony-super-rx-n-18-x-24-niebieskoczule-op-100sz,3,842,466

In fact you can also get:
https://sklep.emtim.pl/blony-do-mammografii-um-ma-18-x-24-op-100-sztuk,3,839,413
which is, BTW, the one I use! But I'm looking for 8x10"!

Daniel Unkefer

25-Jun-2021, 13:48

Here in Europe we only have 18x24cm mammo single sided films. Where do you buy your 8x10 mammo films?
Thx in advance,

I have been buying 18x24cm Mammo film here and there on Ebay for lower money. And 18x24cm Sinar Norma era film holders :) I have 600 sheets on hand. I'm setting up an 8x10 Kodak Hard Rubber Basket line for processing. Going to start with DK-50 'cause that is what I have in quantity, along with the replenisher. Should make nice RC VC contact print work prints for starters. I followed Tim Layton's lead and made a variable contrast light source that fits my large Multigrade filters. Split printing these XRAY negs will be fun.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51231331401_97694d0ed3_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m48XXg)Darkroom Renovation Phase II 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2m48XXg) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50928933843_429bb6948f_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg)Sinar Norma 18x24 Lisco Holders XRAY (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49497411482_1f5123a533_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ipVaYf)VC Contact Printing Source (https://flic.kr/p/2ipVaYf) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Neil Purling

28-Jun-2021, 02:44

The first X-ray film I got was via Forum members. This is medical stuff. Then I got a huge amount of Foma Indux R4 4x5, this is industrial use film.
It seems to be 6 ASA at best. I am still not altogether sure of that because then I was shooting at around 2:00pm on a winter's day (January) & the sun was already low.
I think that I have the right development time...
A non-colour sensitive film does not seem to have a fixed 'speed'. I'm thinking approx 3 ASA when the sun is low, as it was that January day. Then maybe as high as 10 ASA at mid-day in the summer months.
It makes a shoot interesting. Thank goodness landscapes don't move.

Tin Can

28-Jun-2021, 03:16

Your tests correspond with my research. I have not used that type, but it is still used for testing metal and more

When we X-Ray people we ask them to not move, thus higher speeds are useful

The first X-ray film I got was via Forum members. This is medical stuff. Then I got a huge amount of Foma Indux R4 4x5, this is industrial use film.
It seems to be 6 ASA at best. I am still not altogether sure of that because then I was shooting at around 2:00pm on a winter's day (January) & the sun was already low.
I think that I have the right development time...
A non-colour sensitive film does not seem to have a fixed 'speed'. I'm thinking approx 3 ASA when the sun is low, as it was that January day. Then maybe as high as 10 ASA at mid-day in the summer months.
It makes a shoot interesting. Thank goodness landscapes don't move.

maltfalc

28-Jun-2021, 19:26

IanBarber

3-Jul-2021, 08:18

I was given some X-Ray film which just says 50 ASA double sided on the box but something is bothering me about it.

When I expose it and develop it, there is an image there which scans perfect (not tried wet printing) but yet looking at the negative, it looks almost black.

Is this normal for double sided x-ray film ?

Tin Can

3-Jul-2021, 09:20

No

But very thin XRay scans well

IanBarber

3-Jul-2021, 09:31

No

But very thin XRay scans well

Any ideas as to why the developed film looks so dark as though it well over exposed. Ive tried it at various ISO speeds but i always looks the same

Jim Noel

3-Jul-2021, 09:39

It most likely is over-exposed. Have yu tried it at a speed of 100? 200?
What developer and for how long?
I have found that most x-ray films will yield a reasonable negative at a speed of 100, exposed during the middle of the day.
Perhaps your developer is too active. Have you ried diluting it 1 part developer and 2 parts water?
Are you developing under a red safelight kept at least 4 ft away? This wil give yo the oportunity to watch it develop, andmy money is on your under-developing in the beginning.

IanBarber

3-Jul-2021, 09:43

Daniel Unkefer

3-Jul-2021, 09:45

IanBarber

3-Jul-2021, 09:57

This is what it looks like holding the negative up to the window

217260

Tin Can

3-Jul-2021, 10:21

Any data on bo

This is what it looks like holding the negative up to the window

217260

IanBarber

3-Jul-2021, 10:38

Any data on bo

All it says is Kodak Tmat GR Double sided ISO 50

j.e.simmons

4-Jul-2021, 03:37

Mine are frequently very dark, too, and I’ve tested, exposed and developed using BTZS.

Tin Can

4-Jul-2021, 04:11

Never seen Kodak aka Alas, aka Carestream, Medical X-Ray Film have ISO, aka ASA marked on box or online fact sheets

Is it blue tint, which is done to protect eyeballs, staring at X-Ray film all day?

All it says is Kodak Tmat GR Double sided ISO 50

Jim Noel

4-Jul-2021, 10:14

I haven't tried it as high as ISO 100

I am using D76 Stock for 6 minutes
I am under a Red Light but havent had it on during development because its fairly close to the tray

Try an EI of 100 0and dilute the developer 1part developer and 3 parts water at 68-70 deg F.
I can't give you a time as I don't use D76 with this film.

IanBarber

4-Jul-2021, 10:45

Try an EI of 100 0and dilute the developer 1part developer and 3 parts water at 68-70 deg F.
I can't give you a time as I don't use D76 with this film.

I shall try this Jim. Are you thinking its over developed

Jim Noel

4-Jul-2021, 13:57

Over-exposed and over--developed. Also, the developer you are using will produce too much contrast for this film. I have used more than 500 sheets of it and never used D-76 stock. In fact, I don't use it stock with any film. diluting it,andmost developers, produces a wider range of values.

Tin Can

4-Jul-2021, 14:12

Rodinal 1 part to 100 part distilled water

68f 71/2 minutes, with normal agitation

or Ilford PQ and watch under red SAFE light

Tin Can

4-Jul-2021, 15:59

Make sure you use 10mm Rodinol per 8X10

NOT 1ml per 100ml in a Rotary

T.Chabry

6-Jul-2021, 11:48

This is what it looks like holding the negative up to the window

217260

Hi, I had the same problem with my first X-ray film and learnt from my mistakes.
The unexposed parts of the film lack transparency and I resolved and in my case, it was caused by my safe light that wasn't safe and by some light coming from the bottom of the bathroom door.
All my photos also ended up being too dark and resolved the problem by developping the film un less than 4 mn.

T.Chabry

6-Jul-2021, 11:56

After many months of struggle since I started to read this topic, I have finally taken a photo I am pleased with.
Thank you all for sharing your work and tips here, I would have certainly given up without your contributions.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51295393835_c843d9bc27_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m9NitZ)
4x5 X-ray film (https://flic.kr/p/2m9NitZ) by T. Chabry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191014911@N03/), on Flickr

The photo was shot with a 4x5 Newton New-View camera with a Kodak Ektar 127mm lens & Agfa G Plus X-ray film.
The exposition was set at 100 ISO, f4.7, 1/200 s. and it was developed in Kodak HC-110 dilution B for 4 mn.

Ray Van Nes

6-Jul-2021, 14:40

Good effort.

Jim Noel

6-Jul-2021, 19:10

Very Chabryart.

Pete Roody

18-Jul-2021, 13:52

Can anyone tell me if the following film is still made and where can it be purchased from?

8x10 in carestream kodak ektascan b ra single emulsion video film

Thanks,

Pete

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

David Schaller

18-Jul-2021, 16:37

Probably not. It is sold out at all the places we used to buy it. You might be able to find some, marked up in price, on EBay. Other people may know definitely whether it is still being made, but I doubt it is.

Eugen Mezei

21-Jul-2021, 18:59

Anyone knows what this X-ray film could be?
It is labeled Green-Star HQ but it is Fuji produced.217774217773

Jim Noel

21-Jul-2021, 20:00

don't know, but would love to try it.

Scott --

23-Jul-2021, 19:13

T.Chabry

31-Jul-2021, 16:42

Agfa G Plus X-ray film exposed at 100 ISO.
Developed in Kodak HC-110 dilution B for 4 mn.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51289486402_a47463fcc3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2m9h2pG)
Vintage cameras and watch (https://flic.kr/p/2m9h2pG) by T. Chabry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191014911@N03/), on Flickr

T.Chabry

31-Jul-2021, 16:47

For this one, I had a light leak between the shutter and the lens bord but managed to save half of the negative:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51344298963_a96ea77cb4_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2me7XgR)
Saint John, NB Canada reversing fall bridge (https://flic.kr/p/2me7XgR) by T. Chabry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191014911@N03/), on Flickr

neilt3

2-Aug-2021, 15:56

I'm looking at buying some X-Ray film , the green type , from the States to be shipped to the United kingdom .

My concern is when it's on it's travels via several airports I would presume it might pass threw several X-ray machines ?
How will the effect the film ?
If bought in the States and it's shipped from one side of the country to the other , does it also pass threw X-Ray machines ?

Has anyone on this forum bought X-Ray film from the States and delivered to Europe ?
If so , was it effected in any way , fogging etc ?

Does it even pass threw X-ray machines like hand luggage etc ?

Also does anyone know of a source for X-Ray film in either the U.K or Europe ?

T.Chabry

2-Aug-2021, 17:27

agustin.gd

4-Aug-2021, 09:50

218314218315Hey largeformaters!!!

After some try-error with x-ray film, specially with the development part, I come to share some information that improved the quality overall.

I will attach some photos-
BEFORE: I did the classic DIP AND DUNK system- with 3 prism-shape buckets I have found in Ikea type store- 18x22 cm x 25 cm tall-

CONTAINER 1: DEVELOPER-
CONTAINER 2- WATER-
CONTAINER 3. FIX-
I ALWAYS DID DEVELOPMENT UNDER RED SAFE LIGHT- NEVER HAD A PROBLEM.
It went like this-

1- 6 hangers with film in container 2 (Water) for pre wash- 3-4 minutes.

2- all to container 1-developer- inspection, dip and dunk-

3- when they looked ok, back to container 2 ( water) to stop the developer-

4- all 6 there for 2-3 minutes...then running water-

5- fixer -

6- back to container 2- and running water-FINAL WASH- hang to dry.
----------
------
-------

NOW, the process is similar, BUT it didn't work with "regular" tray development, because it was double sided film.

so, no I do all 6 hangers for pre wash.

then I have a small tray that fits 1 hanger -

I LEAVE THE FILM ON THE HANGER, AND THE FLAP OPENED, FOR THE FILM NOT TO BEND AND TOUCH THE TRAY-

I put 1 liter water on the tray + 15ml RODINAL-

the development is much faster, and I use only 1 liter. That concentration is ok for 6-7 sheets-
Same as before, after development, the hanger go back to water, to stop the developer-

then FIX-WASH AND HANG TO DRY.

-

the issue was that with my first system, I hat to be EXTREMELY careful with the dip and dunk- do everything super slow- if not, I would have VERY UNEVEN DEVELOPMENT, specially on the edges, where the film meets the hanger-

I hope its was of help-
I will post the photos not, and some examples of "before-after" with both methods.

PHOTOS - bucket with SPACE FOR 6 HANGERS

detail of hanger with the flap opened so the film can't get scratches-

Have a great day.

agustin.gd

4-Aug-2021, 09:58

examples with system 1 and 2 for development- with and without uneven edges-

2 examples with bad development and one with the "new" system-

I forgot to mention before, that the tray I have now allows me to do 1 hanger at a time- but I have around little less that 2 minutes per sheet to develop-

also I have noticed that the images look a bit more crisp in a way- maybe more concentrated developer acting faster makes this?

Anyways, I hope the information is useful.

AN AWESOME DAY TO EVERYBODY!!!

Tin Can

4-Aug-2021, 10:07

All good!

If you are happy we are happy

I use very weak developer, Rodinol 1-100 about 7 minutes

examples with system 1 and 2 for development- with and without uneven edges-

2 examples with bad development and one with the "new" system-

I forgot to mention before, that the tray I have now allows me to do 1 hanger at a time- but I have around little less that 2 minutes per sheet to develop-

also I have noticed that the images look a bit more crisp in a way- maybe more concentrated developer acting faster makes this?

Anyways, I hope the information is useful.

AN AWESOME DAY TO EVERYBODY!!!

agustin.gd

4-Aug-2021, 10:13

yes, well...1 liter water + 15ml RODINAL is a little bit stronger than 1+100---maybe 1+90???

but it worked better :)

neilt3

4-Aug-2021, 17:02

I don't know about the UK but in France you have this website:
https://www.xraystore.fr/613-les-films-radiographiques-et-la-chimie

I also bought Shanghai films from China a couple times and had no issues with fogging.

Thanks for the link .
Their doesn't seem to be a button to click so the website is in English , but I'll copy and paste into a translator and have a proper read .

From France , I would imagine transport would be by road and rail , so should be a better option .

I have a box of X-ray film in 10x8 size , so as soon as I finish building the camera back and refurbishing the 10x12 camera , I'll be taking a few test shots .
I bought the film a few years ago and can't remember where it came from . I imagine it came from the States , so trying that should confirm if there are any problems when it gets shipped over here .

kanishka

29-Aug-2021, 08:54

Hi! I got this Fuji mammography xray. For what I understand this one has emulsion only in one side right? How I identify which side is it?219157

Tin Can

29-Aug-2021, 08:58

notch

Hi! I got this Fuji mammography xray. For what I understand this one has emulsion only in one side right? How I identify which side is it?219157

kanishka

29-Aug-2021, 09:37

Ah thanks! wasn't sure if this type have a notch

Eugen Mezei

29-Aug-2021, 17:37

From the German seller?

Eugen Mezei

2-Sep-2021, 18:33

What is primary and secondary emulsion?

I am just reading data sheets for Kodak and Carestream mamography film and they speak about facing the primary emulsion to the luminescent screen. I thought mamography film is always coated only on a single side of the support, but it seems not to be always so. (Thy speak also of doouble coating and I first thought it could be that the one side is coated with two layers of emulsion, but it seems not.)

Kodak states:

The primary emulsion appears flat (dull) while the secondary emulsion has been given a shinier, browner appearance. The primary emulsion images the breast parenchyma up to an optical density of 3.0. The backside (secondary) emulsion crosses over to image the upper density and D-Max. The emulsions are different speed and composition so no interactions will occur

What means for us the difference between primary and secondary emulsion?

Tin Can

3-Sep-2021, 00:26

Links please

What is primary and secondary emulsion?

I am just reading data sheets for Kodak and Carestream mamography film and they speak about facing the primary emulsion to the luminescent screen. I thought mamography film is always coated only on a single side of the support, but it seems not to be always so. (Thy speak also of doouble coating and I first thought it could be that the one side is coated with two layers of emulsion, but it seems not.)

Kodak states:

What means for us the difference between primary and secondary emulsion?

Eugen Mezei

3-Sep-2021, 16:33

I dont have the link, it is a PDF, Kodak publication.

Tin Can

4-Sep-2021, 03:43

This thread is 12 years old, I think I read it all

The only way to learn ANY film is to test for yourself

I process KODAK Carestream, Fuji X-Ray double sided and single side on hangers, Rodinol 1/100 68 f active agitation 7 minutes, water stop, TF5 fix

Hope this helps

I dont have the link, it is a PDF, Kodak publication.

Eugen Mezei

4-Sep-2021, 22:42

Which Carestream do you use?

Tin Can

5-Sep-2021, 03:33

I have always bought X-Ray ANALOG film from this Iowa distributor ZZ Medical (https://www.zzmedical.com/analog-x-ray-supplies/x-ray-film/carestream-x-ray-film.html?product_list_limit=all), they only sell in date fresh film

They have changed to only case lots of KODAK aka Carestream

I just bought my last supply of X-Ray from ZZ, a case of FUJI ANALOG
(https://www.zzmedical.com/x-ray-practices/14x36-in-full-length-fuji-x-ray-film-green-hr-u.html) for a project

All Medical X-Ray seems to be going out of production, as Digital takes over, some industrial uses survive

If you are just testing, buy this https://www.zzmedical.com/analog-x-ray-supplies/8x10-in-fuji-x-ray-film.html

All X-Ray requires a careful touch when wet

Since it is so cheap, play with it and try everything

I cut it down to many sizes, including Hasselblad

Which Carestream do you use?

Eugen Mezei

5-Sep-2021, 19:53

Great answer to my question.

Eugen Mezei

12-Sep-2021, 22:08

abruzzi

12-Sep-2021, 22:55

This pictogram is printed onto the back of Carestream (and Kodak) X-ray film packs. Can somebody explain to me what it means? Obviously I have never opened a pack. What does avait me? Are the sheets individually packed in a foil that needs to be opened? And than put back in the bag? 219597

I think it means to close up the pack when done. It just shows a light tight way to fold the package. I’ve never used the Carestream stuff, but Fuji does not come in the plastic bags that are so common with LF photo film. Instead it comes in a sealed paper pack. You tear off the top to pull film and it doesn’t have as much extra as the plastic that film comes in, so you have to be a little careful how you reseal the bag.

Tin Can

13-Sep-2021, 04:44

I use scissors

but it is designed to be tear off

watch out as it is easy to slide the whole 100 sheets out

I bet X-Ray film was then transferred to a dispenser

I use a paper safe

Eugen Mezei

13-Sep-2021, 06:54

I have bought some 18x24 cm and 24x30 cm. Will this fit without problems in our casettes? (And in which ones? Metric system or inch?) Or are they nomimal sizes for the X-ray casettes?

I also bought some dental panorama film. It came in two sizes (same film) 15x30 cm and 12,7x30,5 cm (this one has mentioned in paranthesis: 5x12 in.). So it seems imperial and cm sizes were made.

Daniel Unkefer

13-Sep-2021, 07:42

Eugen,

Any 18cmx24cm holder (Fidelity, Lisco, etc) should work with your 18x24 film. Don't know about the other sizes. Arca Swiss made very cool film holders in the day

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50928862248_cf9d5fcf12_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kApJpS)Sinar Norma 18x24 Lisco Holders (https://flic.kr/p/2kApJpS) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50928933843_7dcf553d6b_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg)Sinar Norma 18x24 Lisco Holders XRAY (https://flic.kr/p/2kAq6Gg) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I'm a Sinar Norma collector and user (I guess!) and I found these cool Sinar Norma holders in a European auction site. They were not as expensive as some since they had no slides with them. Luckily Catlabs stocks these replacement slides so I am good to go. Kodak 18x24cm MINR seems to what is available, most of mine has come from France. Fits perfectly

abruzzi

13-Sep-2021, 07:57

Quick question--I've found that the red LED bulb I use as a safelight will quickly fog the Fuji HR-U. I have an old traditional safelight, but its so dar it takes me 5 minutes before I can see anything, and then only barely. I ordered some rubylith (actual Ulano brand) with the idea that I cut out a disk to cover the metal reflecting dish over the LED bulb, then a little black gaffer tape to seal the edges. That should be sufficient to remove whatever is fogging the film, right? Or should I do a double layer? (I'm trying to retain a resonable amount of brightness, with the other safelight, I might as well do it in the dark...)

jmdavis

13-Sep-2021, 08:49

Jim Noel

13-Sep-2021, 08:54

Your red LED is not pure red. There are such available but you have to search.

abruzzi

13-Sep-2021, 11:07

Your red LED is not pure red. There are such available but you have to search.

I get that, but I’m hoping putting rubylith on it will tame it. As is, it works perfectly (5 minute penny test) on Ilford paper, but it burns the film with less that 30 seconds exposure.

abruzzi

13-Sep-2021, 11:14

I use a 7w red incandescent darkroom bulb at around 6 feet from the sink. Yes, it takes some time to get used to it. Can you put your led system on a dimmer? Do you know what light wavelengths it produces? But it is entirely possible to develop by inspection. You could look for the bulbs used by x-ray processing rooms too. I don't take a real look at the film until around the 5 minute mark. Fuji UM-MA development has been running around 6-6.5 minutes depending on water temp with Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100.

I’m not sure on the dimmer, but most LEDs don’t work with dimmers. This is the light I’m using:

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/globe-bulbs/s11-led-bulb-75-watt-equivalent-led-globe-bulb-27-lumens/440/

It claims the light is 631nm, but I haven’t seen a sensitivity chart for the X-ray films.

Corran

13-Sep-2021, 11:22

jmdavis

13-Sep-2021, 11:45

Fuji UM-MA film appears to be sensitive at 630nm. See post #5580 on this thread for a chart. I think that you want something between 580-610nm or so. I don't know the wavelength of my delta-jr 7w bulb but I didn't detecting fogging with it.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?48099-Use-of-X-ray-film-technical-discussion-with-example-images/page558

abruzzi

13-Sep-2021, 12:17

Two things. First, many of us are using that exact LED light, but not getting fogging. The only fogging I've ever had was from a traditional safelight too close to the film. I'm not sure what could be causing the issue unless some kind of change in manufacturing happened or a defect in the bulb? I have two about 5 feet over the trays and haven't had a problem.

Secondly, I would suggest not using gaff tape or other items on the LED bulb as some bulbs can get very hot. It's usually high-output bulbs that get dangerously hot but better safe than sorry.

My bulb is about 6 ft from the work space in a simple metal domed light clamp pointed away from the work area that looks like this:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71In+7SOjJL._AC_SL1500_.jpg

I wouldn't be taping the rubylith to the bulb itself, but to the perimeter of the metal dish.

Jim Noel

13-Sep-2021, 14:07

I get that, but I’m hoping putting rubylith on it will tame it. As is, it works perfectly (5 minute penny test) on Ilford paper, but it burns the film with less that 30 seconds exposure.

I believe it has some of the yellow part of the spectrum. To me, it isn't worth fooling with. I would get one meant for film, x-ray or orthochromatic.

Jim Noel

13-Sep-2021, 14:12

Corran

13-Sep-2021, 14:43

My bulb is about 6 ft from the work space in a simple metal domed light clamp pointed away from the work area that looks like this:

I wouldn't be taping the rubylith to the bulb itself, but to the perimeter of the metal dish.

Gotcha. Still not sure what the issue could be. My two bulbs above the developer aren't causing issues (with Fuji HR-U as well).

Tin Can

13-Sep-2021, 16:11

They upgraded the red bulb from my originals

1 watt became 2 watt

Gotcha. Still not sure what the issue could be. My two bulbs above the developer aren't causing issues (with Fuji HR-U as well).

Corran

13-Sep-2021, 16:59

Interesting! Any idea when the change happened?

abruzzi

13-Sep-2021, 20:15

I'll do a more careful test this weekend, but I had the same problem when I first built my darkroom ~4 years ago. I had some hand-me-down old expired Forte paper, and that fogged badly with the LEDs, but the new Ilford paper works perfectly. I like the LED, it makes the room visible, whereas the other safelight is pretty hard for me to use.

Tin Can

14-Sep-2021, 03:27

no

one day I ordered more, checked online spec and saw the change

they say nothing

and I cannot tell the difference between 1 or 2 watt by eye, no markings

I like to sprinkle them all over my Dark Home

Interesting! Any idea when the change happened?

Eugen Mezei

14-Sep-2021, 11:01

A local doctor was upgrading to digital and couldn't find anyone to dispose of the old stuff, so I loaded it all into my car. Dropped the chemicals off at the hazmat facility, kept the film. 150 sheets 10"x12", expired 2014. Cut down to 4x5 with a Dahle rolling trimmer.

It would have been a good idea to test those chemicals. Often surplus film comes with surplus chemicals and it could be usefull it somebody already tested those chemicals. Especially as the data sheets of X-ray film and chemicals use criptical parameters (like develop it in developing machine Kodak type ..., develop so when used with luminescent foil of type a and different for type b). Would be nice to translate those parameters to the ones we use (delta, gamma, shoulder, toe, etc.)

Tin Can

14-Sep-2021, 11:15

If you read the originators of this thread from day one, they used far different parameters than some of us do now

Such as ISO

Jim Noel

14-Sep-2021, 13:31

Some of us have been using x-ray film since long before it became popular because of price. I discovered it when other orthochromatic films became more and more difficult to find. one box which I am still sing has a use before date of 12/1971. Good stuff.

Tin Can

14-Sep-2021, 14:06

That's why I have stocked up, sometimes I learn from my elders

Like Jim

:)

Some of us have been using x-ray film since long before it became popular because of price. I discovered it when other orthochromatic films became more and more difficult to find. one box which I am still sing has a use before date of 12/1971. Good stuff.

Eugen Mezei

15-Sep-2021, 03:11

Obviously I didnt mean that difference. ISO is not really a different parameter, its steps are on a logarithmic scale, that is all. But if you show me datasheets of X-ray film where their ISO sensitivity is written, than I would be very glad about that data.

Tin Can

15-Sep-2021, 03:33

All that data is online with Fuji and repeated endlessly on this thread

Why are you asking one ? at a time?

Additionally it is helpful to know your location, as Fuji has many sites, look it up

The pioneers just tested for themselves, their data is here

20 years ago Data was slim

I have only 9 years of experience

Eugen Mezei

16-Sep-2021, 15:37

No, the data is not there anymore. There are a lot of dead links, that is what is there now. (E.g. for the sensitivity and reciprocity there is a link to Phototrio, gives a 404.)

Tin Can

16-Sep-2021, 16:50

https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Basic-Photographic-Sensitometry-Workbook.pdf QUOTE=Eugen Mezei;1614891]No, the data is not there anymore. There are a lot of dead links, that is what is there now. (E.g. for the sensitivity and reciprocity there is a link to Phototrio, gives a 404.)[/QUOTE]

Rubud

25-Sep-2021, 13:06

Greetings and thank you to all who have shared their knowledge & experience. As a 'newbie' to x-ray & large format the wisdom is a valuable starting point.

I've was given a heap of old Agfa x-ray film from a retired radiographer which I'll be attempting to use to whet my appetite. The 10T is very much RS (emulsion floats off) but I've cut some Cronex 5 down to 4x5 (& 2x3) to play around in my pinholes. Unfortuanately, our current lockdown status prevents me from taking the Crown Graphic out & about, having exhausted the patience of my wife & dog. It'll be interesting to see how this stuff handles over 10 years past expiry.

219927

Tin Can

25-Sep-2021, 13:14

Great!

Greetings and thank you to all who have shared their knowledge & experience. As a 'newbie' to x-ray & large format the wisdom is a valuable starting point.

I've was given a heap of old Agfa x-ray film from a retired radiographer which I'll be attempting to use to whet my appetite. The 10T is very much RS (emulsion floats off) but I've cut some Cronex 5 down to 4x5 (& 2x3) to play around in my pinholes. Unfortuanately, our current lockdown status prevents me from taking the Crown Graphic out & about, having exhausted the patience of my wife & dog. It'll be interesting to see how this stuff handles over 10 years past expiry.

219927

T.Chabry

28-Sep-2021, 19:38

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51529387706_a5287c1a4a_k.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mvtzH5)
8x10 large format (https://flic.kr/p/2mvtzH5) by T. Chabry (https://www.flickr.com/photos/191014911@N03/), on Flickr

Camera: 8x10 Kodak Rochester Empire State (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164616-Vintage-8x10-restauration-project)
Film: AGFA G-PLUS green X-Ray exposed at ISO 100
Development: 6 mn in Caffenol C-H @ 20°C

j.e.simmons

24-Oct-2021, 11:08

Daniel Unkefer

24-Oct-2021, 12:03

Just FYI. In this thread are two red safelight recommendations - one from superbrightled and a second from Lowe’s. I tested both this morning - Fuji green X-ray film, indirect light with measuring cups on the film, five minutes exposure with one film for each bulb. Developed 20-minutes Pyrocat HD 1:1:100 to be sure it was fully developed. The Lowe’s bulb badly fogged the film. The superbrightled exposed film barely showed the outline of the cups, but they were there. I guess it’s on to replacing the cord on my old Kodak bullet safelight and using their X-ray filter.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50348848932_1424fbb535_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jHa1Eh)Kodak 1A Grey Bullet Safelight 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jHa1Eh) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Jason Lane suggested this setup to me, this is what he uses to coat his high speed glass dry plates. It's the Lowes LED behind a Kodak !A Bullet Safelight and filter. So this one is DOUBLE-FILTERED deep red light. I've used dev times as long as 25 minutes in a tray with no fog six feet away. Add film cutting and loading time to that and ZERO FOG ever.
Jason really knows what he is talking about. Not cheap to make but worth every penny

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50348845692_1d1f01d2d6_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jH9ZGq)Kodak 1A Grey Bullet Safelight 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jH9ZGq) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I like it so much I made a second one for cutting and loading