PDA

View Full Version : wood



e
31-Aug-2001, 02:54
Is the wood used in camera construction a major factor to take into consideratio n when purchasing a camera? Or are the visual characteristics and weight of the wood the only considerations in that regard. I've seen some ebony canes fron afr ica and they seemed as strong as steel and very heavy too..I dont know if I woul d like to haul that kind of weight even for the strength of it.Rosewood is prett y tough too and cherry and mahogony seem on the lighter side. What are the real differences between the various woods or are they just cosmetic? I wonder also w hy rock maple isn't used for cameras? Thanks E.D.L.

paul owen
31-Aug-2001, 05:10
I'm no tree expert, but I've been really impressed with the quality of the Ebony I use. I understand that ebony is a very hard wood but the Ebony cameras are very lightweight, but this is down to design I think. From what I gather, ebony is very straight grained and therefore doesn't flex like other woods? Regards

Bob Salomon
31-Aug-2001, 05:20
Wista uses cherry, rosewood and bony for their wood cameras.

Cherry is by far the lightest.

Rosewood and ebony are quite a bit heavier and ebony is the heaviest.

Ebony, being a tropical tree is also best suited to use in humid/wet areas.

Dave Willison
31-Aug-2001, 09:35
At some level, there are real differences between different types of woods. According to Wisner, for example, American Black Cherry and Honduran Mahogany have the best shrink ratios as well as other favorable engineering characteristics that make them more suitable for LF camera construction. It may be equally important, however, to focus on how the wood is selected, stored, milled, joined, and finished.

How important are these differences and should they effect your decision to buy a particular camera? IMHO these characteristics play only a small role in sorting out cameras, particularly if you are choosing between Winser, Phillips, Ebony, Wista or another high-end manufacturer.

.................................

David E. Rose
31-Aug-2001, 11:47
I believe Ebony is an endangered tree, we really shouldn't make cameras out of it.

Michael Feldman
31-Aug-2001, 12:07
David, you are talking about old growth trees found in the wild. Reputable manufacturers use trees that are plantation grown specifically for harvesting the wood. This includes not only ebony, but also many other woods such as mahogany, teak, etc.

James Phillips
31-Aug-2001, 15:31
In regards to which type of wood most of the sensible options have already been mentioned. As for the weight of the camera, you will not notice much difference between say Ebony and Cherry because of the small amount of wood actually present and the type of metal used in the construction can easily offset this factor. As for shrinkage or expansion, any of these woods if properly selected based upon grain direction and grain orientation during construction can be properly finished (as most manufactures do)that will prevent the wood from shrinking or expanding to a noticeable degree. The final important aspect to take into consideration is one's ability to maintain the camera so as to prevent the wood from becoming cracked which would then possibly permit shrinkage(due to drying in a hot climate) or expansion (due to mositure).

Regards

Bob Salomon
31-Aug-2001, 16:30
"As for the weight of the camera, you will not notice much difference between say Ebony and Cherry"

Wista DX Cherry = 59.5 oz Wista DX Rosewood = 72 oz Wista DX Ebony = 74 oz.

About 20% difference between Cherry and Ebony but minimal difference between Rosewood and Ebony.

All features and fittings are the same between these 3 cameras.

e
31-Aug-2001, 23:39
I was at a wholesale import trade show(NYC) for my business and at an African dealer there was a considerable amount of ebony wood carvings/products etc. Some heavier pieces like canes and sculptures CHEAP....I was surprised so...I wonder if the exaulted prices (cameras) are for the wood itself or the difficulty in working it or most likly...a imaginativly percieved luxury wood that is not really as expensive as we would like to believe. Although it's the heaviest/toughest wood I've seen... except maybe ironwood... and probably more expensive to ship in quantity.Maybe...

David R Munson
1-Sep-2001, 00:18
Another previous thread concerning wood choice can be found <a href="http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl? msg_id=005tWo"here</a> (http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=005tWo). Ebony, cherry, etc are all good woods and each has its advantages and disadvantages for a camera-building material. I won't get started on the issue, but conservation is an important thing to keep in mind when considering the different woods used.

David R Munson
1-Sep-2001, 00:19
OK, so I'm apparently really starting to lose my grip on what basic HTML skills I once had. Geez, 19 and I'm already starting to slip...

James Phillips
1-Sep-2001, 01:34
In regards to Bob?s pointing out that field cameras made from ebony weigh more than those made from cherry I have to offer the following thoughts. Yes, ebony is a denser wood than cherry and this would cause an increase in the weight of the camera but not to what I would consider a significant degree. Now of course this is open to interpretation as to what you would call a significant weight increase.

Most people I believe acquire a field camera for the portability and this includes the weight factor as well as other such things as being able to fold it up and carry it in a backpack. As for your main question ?Is the wood used in camera construction a major factor to take into consideration when purchasing a camera?? I am certain that the type of wood is very important in making a view camera. Pine, cedar or fir for instance are not at all appropriate because of the lack of rigidity and workability in these species. On the other hand using the three that were under discussion cherry, rosewood and ebony, they are all very suitable for making cameras with. So onto your second question ?Or are the visual characteristics and weight of the wood the only considerations in that regard.?

Let?s talk about the weight issue and how it may affect your decision. I am assuming that you are asking a question like this because you are going to be going more that 50 paces away from your mode of transportation. So what amount of weight is a significant difference if you are hiking say one to five or six miles in one direction at a time? (I realize some photographers hike much further but expect that the majority work on day trips within this approximate range). Are you capable of carrying a 25 lb pack with intermittent rests on your hike? Perhaps you can manage 30 lbs? Or perhaps you?re an avid outdoors type and 40 + lbs is easily within your capability. As you can see the weight factor has to be based upon your physical capabilities.

So now with this in mind is shaving 14oz off your ?carrying weight? that important? I am of the mind that having the best (most flexible, easy to use and rigid) field camera I can afford as well as the proper lens with me to be more important than reducing my pack by up to a pound or two. If 14 oz is a deep concern then let?s examine other ways in which you may save this weight and still have the camera of your choice with you.

Do you carry a full wallet, pocket change, your complete key chain and wear a belt with a nice buckle on your pants? I sometimes do all of those things. Using a sensitive scale I weighed these items and then decide to take only my driver?s license, credit card, single key and tie my pants up with nylon string. I have now saved 14 ounces. How heavy are the boots/shoes that you wear while hiking? (after all you lift each one many times on a hike). Could you possibly wear lighter footwear? Perhaps a frugal purchase in the $40 - $70 range will save you from 6 to 14 ounces of weight and net you a nice new pair of boots at the same time.

You can probably now see my viewpoint that the obsession with ?reducing the carried weight? at the cost of the equipment you prefer to use can be taken to extremes. I?ll be the first to agree if I can cut 4 or 5 lbs off my pack weight I will happily do that, but not if I have to trade off the type of equipment I want to use out there while hiking. If I need to carry a few more pounds to ensure I have what I feel is appropriate and necessary then this may mean carrying a camera made out of ebony instead of cherry. If so then I?ll just take a few more mini breaks during my hike to compensate for the difference and have the opportunity to enjoy my hike that much more.

By the way if I happened to owe somebody a nickel and only had a dime in my pocket, I would give him or her the whole dime. Yes I would really do this even though it would be a difference of 100%. That is five times more than the 20% difference between Cherry and Ebony.

Regards,

Bob Salomon
1-Sep-2001, 07:39
"I wonder if the exaulted prices (cameras) are for the wood itself or the difficulty in working it or most likly...a imaginativly percieved luxury wood that is not really as expensive as we would like to believe"

Do you really believe that the cost of doing business in Japan, the US, the EU equates to the cost of carving wood in Africa?

e
1-Sep-2001, 21:24
I was wondering why the ebony-wood cameras are so much more expensive than mahogony or cherry considering that the wood/ebony may or may not be very much more expensive wholesale....if any more expensive....the workmanship was not what I was asking about,that would be close for any of the woods per hour labour in Japan or elsewhere... is there a REAL difference.. percent wise between the different woods that justifies the REAL price difference between cherry and ebony..AND if things are so cheap in Africa....why isnt ebony cheaper? To repeat... I noticed that ebony by the pound by a distributor of imports was in the area of $1.25 a lb.(already carved into items)and the traditional distributor of imports marks up 3 to 8 x's if not more for profit. So....why the exaulted price for these ebony wood cameras?

Bob Salomon
1-Sep-2001, 21:41
Ebony is a much harder wood to work. That costs money.

Additionally it seems ebony is in lesser supply so that increases the cost.

Lastly fine wood costs more.

Go to your local lumber yard. Copare the cost per foot of the various grades of pine, oak, walnut cherry, etc.

Lastly cameras are made from furniture grade wood. Fully dried and ages, matched for grain, no knots, etc.

it is not exactly what most people would use for studs or book cases.

e
1-Sep-2001, 22:55
Thanks Bob...I am then to acertain that only the finest grades of the highest quality wood are used for cameras,as well as ebonywood being MUCH harder to work and rarer .....increasing prices all around. I would really like to know though...well maybe I wouldnt...the actual price difference(wholesale) between cherry, mahogony and ebony...per camera and the extra man hours of labour to work ebony...but it doesnt really matter...when Im buying a camera,if I want ebony I'll pay extra...if I want cherry I'll pay less...it doesnt have to be a decision based on logical economics....the market and the perception of the value dictate the price.... real or not. Thanks, Emile

Bob Salomon
2-Sep-2001, 06:49
"the actual price difference(wholesale) between cherry, mahogony and ebony"

Just ask any lumberyard that sells fine woods. Or you might get price differences from a custom framer that works in these woods.

But what difference does it really make?

You want mahogony, rosewood or ebony then that will direct your choice by brand and you will know that you will have to pay more and they weigh more.

What is the difference in cost between nylon, naugahyde and leather in your car and do you care for the wholesale differnce in cost between them?

e
2-Sep-2001, 21:45
We are just talking about a couple of pounds of wood here....not a luxury automobile. E.

Bob Salomon
3-Sep-2001, 06:03
How much do you think leather weighs oner fabric to be $1000.00 or more upgrade?

Weight isn't the factor.

e
26-Sep-2001, 03:16
BTW...A very well known camera maker charges the EXACT SAME PRICE for a camera constructed from ebony or mahogony....I'm having a custom camera made and the price is the same for either wood! So much for all the imaginary difference in wood prices! Thanks all the info! Bye, E.

Bob Salomon
26-Sep-2001, 17:31
"A very well known camera maker charges the EXACT SAME PRICE for a camera constructed from ebony or mahogony....I'm having a custom camera made and the price is the same for either wood!"

Why the surprise?

they are both hardwoods, they are both expensive woods.

Are you tring to say that he would also charge the same for pine? Or walnut?

Get real. He is charging you for his time, knowledge, expertise, etc. the cost of the wood is factored into his costs. If you want to pay the same for both he is happy to charge you the same. If you want to negotiate for a difference in price you might find one is less then the other.

In any case enjoy the camera.

But why resort to custom in the first place?

e
28-Sep-2001, 01:08
I like the odd size 5x8 camera.Just cut an 8x10 sheet in two and you have a nice long format.I like the proportions better than 4x5 or 5x7.Its closer to the Greek perfect golden mean of ancient times used for much of the artwork then.I can go panaromic or crop to 5x7 easily.The screen is easy on the eye and the camera isnt too heavy.And its a litle bit different than the norm which is cool too.And less dollares than a 5x7 from the same company.I just have to decide if I want to go light with mahogony or tough with ebony.Any ideas on the difference between these two woods and their use in real life circumstances?

Bob Salomon
28-Sep-2001, 09:47
"And its a litle bit different than the norm which is cool too.And less dollares than a 5x7 from the same company.I just have to decide if I want to go light with mahogony or tough with ebony.Any ideas on the difference between these two woods and their use in real life circumstances? " And what about film holders?

Replacement ground glass? Fresnel screen?

Compendiuum?

e
28-Sep-2001, 23:48
All must be custom made. BTW its easy enough to make your own ground glass...get two sheets of glass and some fine grit from a gem and mineral/specimen store(the type used for rock tumblers)...a little water and liquid soap mixed with the grit between the two sheets of glass...place on table and grind slowly the two sheets together...keeping an eye on the spots that need work....you may need to rinse the glass occationally to inspect but I did this on my Linhof and saved money overall and learned something valueable!