Here we go: purchasing a 4x5 kit of my own... suggestions?

[erikbenj]

Hello all,

I have admired and visited this site for awhile and finally have decided to sign up as I am finally in the market to purchase a large format kit. I've been shooting large format for four years now (mostly as an undergraduate student) and have experimented with several different cameras both field and rail. As I move out to Boston soon to start graduate school, I was hoping to purchase a field camera.

At my undergraduate school we had two of the low end Toyo 45CF kits. They always performed and I have had a great history with them, but am thinking about upgrading as this is a kit I plan on using for decades. I was wondering what you all would recommend. The Wista's are really blowing me away as well as the metal Toyos. Tilting and shifting with both standards is not a necessity.

Thanks so much
Erik

[MIke Sherck]

Call Jim at Midwest Photo and see what he can do for you. They've provided outstanding service in the past for me.

Mike

[catshaver]

I would opt for a new Shen-Hao 4x5 in black walnut. They have all the movements you will likely need, are robustly constructed, and if you buy it from Badger Graphic, has the service behind the sale that is second to none. The purchase of a new camera takes all the guess work out of how well a camera was cared for by previous owners. I bought a Busch Pressman D a few years ago, and while it will outlive me, it has its quirks and the pinhole leaks that are a yearly maintenance item. I will be buying a Shen-Hao 5x7 FDL to replace it next year. I do extreme closeups, so the extra bellows length on the 5x7 is necessary while only weighing in at 6 lbs.

For a lens, I would choose a 135mm for starts. My Wollensak Raptar 135 has done everything I have asked of it. In fact, I owned a Rodenstock Sironar S 150 and sold it because the Raptar gave me better results. On paper the image circle stats seem slight, but in practice, I have never exceeded acceptable sharpness in the corners. Unless you do architectural work with maximum shifts and rise/fall, image circle shouldn't be an issue. In the meantime though, a 135mm lens can be had for little money and give you everything from wide angle looking stuff to normal focal length with back tilts etc. From there you could go with a 210mm which are flooding the used market. Lots of symmars out there in this length. If you can find a decent 203 7.7 Ektar, grab it! It is tiny and its sharpness is stunning.

[erikbenj]

Thank you very much for your answer! I actually have not looked into wooden cameras or even been able to play around with one. The main difference between a wood and metal field camera is weight and durability though it would seem? Not that I would ever "throw around" any type of camera, but I just get a delicate feeling from the wood construction ones.

I will do some research into the Shen Hao's though - I had never heard about those until today. As for the lenses I agree that a 135 is a nice place to start. I will definitely look into the model you suggested.

[Ron Marshall]

You have to give us more info.

What range of lenses do you plan to use? Is light-weight important? Do you prefer metal over wood? What is your budget?

[jeroldharter]

You will get a wide gamut of opinions here. Before you pick, you need a budget. Big difference between Shen Hao and Linhof for example. Also, you need to decide if you want one camera that can do it all, or perhaps multiple cameras for select purposes (wide vs tele for example.)

You said that you don't need tilts and shifts on both standards. I suspect that you will want at least tilts on both standards if you plan to use the camera for a long time.

My advice is:

Chamonix 45 for cheap, aesthetics, functional

Toyo 45AII for reasonable cost used, high quality and durability, lenses 90-300

Canham 45DLC for light weight, versatility (75 - 300+)

Arca Swiss F-Line Metric for max versatility, max quality, pleasure to use, precision, max cost.

[erikbenj]

Thank you all for the responses.

To answer your question Ron, I will most likely way within a relative traditional lense range (excuse me for not knowing the correct focal lengths as I have only shot with a 150 and 210, but somewhere between 90 and 300 - I could not imagine needing bigger glass).

I am completley up in the air about metal versus wood. I will say weight is important as I am moving to a city where I will not have a car and plan on shooting as much on location as in the studio.

As for a budget, I would feel comfortable spending anywhere from 750 to maaybe 2000 for a body and lense.

And Jerold as you said maybe it is better to have as many options as possible (tilt/shift on both standards) as I do plan on revolving around one primary large format kit for awhile.

Thank you all so much!

[erikbenj]

Also one last thing is that I just finished talking to another photographer friend and her advice was essentially to buy a cheap body and spend the money on the lenses.

Thoughts?

[Ron Marshall]

Looking at current prices for used lenses, you should be able to put together a kit of 90-135-210 for less than $1000, perhaps even a bit less.

A decent used woodfield would be $500 and up.

Check KEH Camera brokers to get an idea of pricing. Private sales will be about 10-20% lower than that:

http://www.keh.com/OnLineStore/CategoryTableOfContents.aspx?Mode=&item=0&ActivateTOC2=true&ID=59&BC=LF&BCC=7




Thank you all for the responses.

To answer your question Ron, I will most likely way within a relative traditional lense range (excuse me for not knowing the correct focal lengths as I have only shot with a 150 and 210, but somewhere between 90 and 300 - I could not imagine needing bigger glass).

I am completley up in the air about metal versus wood. I will say weight is important as I am moving to a city where I will not have a car and plan on shooting as much on location as in the studio.

As for a budget, I would feel comfortable spending anywhere from 750 to maaybe 2000 for a body and lense.

And Jerold as you said maybe it is better to have as many options as possible (tilt/shift on both standards) as I do plan on revolving around one primary large format kit for awhile.

Thank you all so much!

[Gem Singer]

In your original statement, you said "this is a kit I plan on using for decades". Maybe months, or years, but not decades. As ones experience and skill level increases, so does the desire for newer, better, or larger equipment.

Best to purchase the best quality late model previously owned camera and lenses that you can afford. You can always add more equipment or trade up later. A "cheap" camera probably will not hold up for decades. A metal camera is more rugged than a wood or plastic camera, as you have already surmised.

You can purchase previously owned equipment from private individuals or from a dealer you can trust. Jim, at Midwest Photo Exchange (MPEX) and Jeff at Badger Graphic are two very reliable dealers in new and used equipment.

KEH buys low and sells high, but they have the largest selection of used equipment.

You'll get lots of help from the members of this forum. Ask, and you will receive.

[Turner Reich]

as this is a kit I plan on using for decades.

Look seriously at Ebony for the camera.

[jnantz]

hi erik

i hate to sound like a cheapskate in the bunch, but you are used to and have a nice
groove going with the cf, why don't you look into its grandpappy, the speed graphic?
i have one that i have been using for decades - and it has never let me down.
i suggest the speed, rather than the crown graphic, mainly because as a student,
maybe you want to use non traditional glass ( diopters, lens cells, magnifying glass &C )
and with a speed graphic you can always use the focal plane shutter ...
they can use anyting from a 50something ( i have used a 58mm ) lens up to a 15" teleoptar and everything inbetween.
the body of a speed isn't carbon fiber like the cf, but wood and metal ...
it is pretty rugged ...
not that a linhof or ebony isn't nice, but they cost $$$
if you decide that you want something more like a trophy you can always sell the speed
and get the other ... there is always a market for the speed ...

have fun in boston + don't forget to go to ep levines -
john

[erikbenj]

hey john

gotta love the speed graphics. i have been able to play around with those but never shoot! itd be great to pick one up eventually and get it refurbished, but i think im looking a bit more flexibility in a camera. granted the CF has been incredible in getting me where i want to go, but i think im trying to find field camera that can function beautifully in the field and in the studio. as i understand, the speed graphic excels in the former.

one day ill get my hands on one though thats for sure.

[erikbenj]

and to clarify maybe using a field camera 'for decades' is a bit of an exaggeration. definitely though at least one decade! if all goes as planned i will be able to upgrade eventually :p

[Rafael Garcia]

I own cameras in 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 formats. I bought them all used except for my beautiful maple and black 4x5 Chamonix. I am so afraid of hurting this little jewel by taking it out on rough terrain, I almost never use it, preferring to rough it with my Wista 45SP because of its durability, even though it weights three times what the Chamonix does. Camera choice is highly personal, and sometimes illogical, as you see.

[Don Dudenbostel]

Quality professional wooden cameras are as durable as you could want. Also the concept of using a camera for decades is very realistic. I own both metal and wood. I purchased two new Sinar Norma's in 1969 and a used 8x10 Deardorff in 1972. My 8x10 is about 70 years old and while its not pretty its just as functional as the day it was made. I updated the non swinging front standard in 1975 and am the third owner of which all of us have put it through heave professional use. I have transported it across the country many times on jobs and shot thousands of sheets through it. I personally know the second owner and he ran it through the paces for a few decades before I got it. I still use it and shot with it last week. My Normas have seen the same kind of use and are 4 decades old this year. I use them less frequently now but will continue to use them until I can no longer shoot. I also owned and shot a Master Technika for thirty years. Last year I added two additional cameras, a minty Ebony SV45TE and a minty 4x5/5x7 Canham traditional wood. I expect both to last for decades. The Ebont IMO is the finest wood camera I've ever used. Its like all of the improvements I ever wanted in my Deardorff. Ive used my Leice M system for 42 years with a few additions and updates my Nikon F2 system for 30+ years and my Rollei SL66's for almost 30 until I wore them out and went to Hasselblad which Ive used for a decade. I guess I don't understand the reason for constantly selling/ trading and buying equipment. I picked quality equipment that met my needs and would serve me under heavy use for decades and have done just that, used it for decades and hopefully for a few more.

Just guessing I would expect a quality wooden camera to take knocks and bangs better than metal. Wood will crack or dent but metal bends and won't bounce back. I think my Deardorff or Ebony would take a fall much better than my Sinars.

Oops I forgot about my Crown Graphic 4x5 that I got new in 1964 and use from time to time.

[sczin]

Erik

I too have a Wista 45sp and I am very pleased with its performance. This camera rock solid and all movements lock down tight. On the short side I use a Schneider 75mm f/5.6 Super-Angulon with a recessed lens board and on the long side a Fujinon 400 t f/8.0, all with the standard bellows.

Regards,
Steve

[Richard Littlewood]

There is always the Walker Titan. Tough as old boots.