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bwchrome
5-Apr-2009, 20:45
Hello all;

Need your help in determining the value of a lens that some of you may have some experience with. It came from a smaller camera but it will cover an 810 format.

Its is a goerz dagor 8 1/4 f 6.8 ser# 771***

Appreciate any input on its value.

regards

dw

Don Dudenbostel
5-Apr-2009, 21:06
Is it coated and what shutter? What are the cosmetic and optical conditions? Any cleaning marks and are the speeds accurate? Recent cla?

I see many seriously overpriced Dagors on ebay but the don't sell. I purchased a 9+ condition 8-1/2" Golden Dagor IN a compur shutter last month from B&H for $649 and a 12" late coated Dagor in a very nice Ilex shutter off ebay for $300. The 12" has a minor coating discoloration on the back element if you look at it just the right way and has no effect on the image. From my research its two digits under the SN where the Golden version started in production.

Hope this gives some real world indication of price.

Dagors are cult lenses but in reality they are no better than modern lenses with the exception of having a larger than average image circle. I think the current economic climate is forcing prices down to a more realistic level.

bwchrome
5-Apr-2009, 21:48
thanks very much for the reply!

the glass is in pristine condition as well is the shutter. i dont know how to tell if its a gold lens. there is some gold color on the end of one of the elements. the lens is not coated as far as i can tell.

the ebay prices are all over the place so i don't know really how much its worth.

regards

dw

Donald Miller
6-Apr-2009, 01:24
I bought this same length and F stop lens mounted in the same shutter five years ago for $225.00. I sold it a year and half ago (when I moved away from 8X10) without losing any money. I found the lens to render a very nice image on film.

Don Dudenbostel
6-Apr-2009, 06:33
Here's a link to SN's http://www.largeformatphotography.info/classic-experts.html

Looks like yours is a 1948. Yours should be coated since it's post war. The coating on dagors is not very heavy particularly early coatings. The gold dagor has a gold aluminum ring around the front and the gold dot has a gold dot on the retaining ring. I would guess $350-$450 in good economic times but it might bring less at the moment. Actually the dagors are all the same formula, regular, series III, gold and gold dot. The gold and gold dot were strictly marketing tricks.

bwchrome
6-Apr-2009, 10:06
..actually i was thinking on keeping it and only looking to sell it if you were to tell me it was worth some ridiculous price. It came with a camera but i am selling that and keeping this lens.. it has a nice image quality for it's coverage.

Thanks for the assist again.

Regards
dw

Mark Sampson
6-Apr-2009, 11:18
It's best that you keep it, and use it. That way I don't have to try and buy it from you, and commit $ I can't spare. Enjoy!

Lynn Jones
6-Apr-2009, 11:24
Hi David,

Yours was made by AOC and they were excellent makers of Goerz lenses for many years as well as highly recognized microscopes, and their accessories. Goerz set up an American company approximately around WWI. After AOC stopped making AOC Goerz lenses you would be well advised to test before buying.

Goerz lenses maked Goerz Berlin, were made by B&J of Chicago, although rarely, some were actually made by the German Goerz, and were later coated and shuttered in Chicago. These B&J Goerz lenses were highly reputable also.

Dagors were wide field, covering 65 degrees and made specifically for view cameras.

Lynn

Don Dudenbostel
6-Apr-2009, 11:29
Interesting over the 30 years I've shot Dagors I've had four or five and have never had one shift focus until I purchased the recent 12". My previous series III that I used for studio product work for may years didn't. It was a coated series III that I'm guessing was coated sometime after WWII. It was my understanding that Goerz would take older lenses in for coating at one point. Actually I'm sorry I traded my old series III for a newer Symmar 300mm. The Symmar is great but has developed a serious haze between the elements and needs a major cleaning internally.

Steve Hamley
6-Apr-2009, 12:18
Don,

Adam at S.K. Grimes can clean it for you. It's about the same price as a shutter CLA, so while not peanuts, it is much cheaper than replacing the lens. And if you like the lens, it isn't too much for periodic maintenance.

Cheers, Steve

Joseph O'Neil
6-Apr-2009, 12:55
..actually i was thinking on keeping it and only looking to sell it if you were to tell me it was worth some ridiculous price. It came with a camera but i am selling that and keeping this lens.. it has a nice image quality for it's coverage.



If you have a use for it, keep it and enjoy it. Nice lens. The reality is as of late, with the economy going the way things are, I noticed that used prices for LF gear are not what they used to be even 18 months ago. I think too many people just don't have the money like they used to.

The only good news, if you are still looking to sell, is at least LF gear does still seem to sell. The amount of good, used, 35mm and MF gear I see for sale on-line and/or in the local camera shops is just heart breaking. High end gear in excellent shape sometimes as low as 10 cents on the dollar, and it just collects dust. For example - a friend of mine has a Zeiss 35mm slide projector for sale - cost him a fortune brand new, he cannot even get $50 for it today.

So keep it for yourself if you can, as IMO, I think the days of getting an outrageous price for some "cult lens" is fast fading.

joe

David Lindquist
6-Apr-2009, 13:23
Hi David,

Yours was made by AOC and they were excellent makers of Goerz lenses for many years as well as highly recognized microscopes, and their accessories. Goerz set up an American company approximately around WWI. After AOC stopped making AOC Goerz lenses you would be well advised to test before buying.

Goerz lenses maked Goerz Berlin, were made by B&J of Chicago, although rarely, some were actually made by the German Goerz, and were later coated and shuttered in Chicago. These B&J Goerz lenses were highly reputable also.

Dagors were wide field, covering 65 degrees and made specifically for view cameras.

Lynn

It is my understanding that the C.P. Goerz American Optical Company was not connected with American Optical (originally and still makers of eye glasses beginning in 1833 and later also known for their microscopes which they started making in the mid 1930's after acquiring Spencer). The following website has extensive history on AO: http://www.dickwhitney.net/RBWAOHistoryIndex.html

Note that neither the circa 1933 nor the circa 1960 company histories on this website mention C.P. Goerz.

Also C.P. Goerz set up their American operation in 1899 (need to check that date). the name "C.P. Goerz American Optical Company" dates from 1905.
David Lindquist

David Lindquist
6-Apr-2009, 15:36
Also C.P. Goerz set up their American operation in 1899 (need to check that date). the name "C.P. Goerz American Optical Company" dates from 1905.
David Lindquist

Google turns up several sources saying the U.S. branch opened in 1895, one source says 1899. There seems to be general agreement that the name "C.P. Goerz American Optical Company" dates from 1905. A 1940 Goerz catalogue on www.cameraeccentric.com shows the statement "made in USA since 1899". This 1940 catalogue, as well as a circa 1970's (post acquisition by Schneider Corp. of America) brochure both give the following approximate angular fields for the Dagor:
f/6.8- 56 deg.; f/ 16- 70 deg.; f/45- 87 deg.

As far as the date of the change in name from C.P. Goerz American Optical Company to Goerz Optical Company, Kerry Thalmann reported on another forum that he has one Goerz price list dated May 1964 showing the former name and a price list dated December 1964 showing the latter name.
David Lindquist

Don Dudenbostel
6-Apr-2009, 16:28
Don,

Adam at S.K. Grimes can clean it for you. It's about the same price as a shutter CLA, so while not peanuts, it is much cheaper than replacing the lens. And if you like the lens, it isn't too much for periodic maintenance.

Cheers, Steve

Thanks. I talked to Schneider about it but felt it would be a couple of hundred dollars minimum. I really should get it cleaned.

Steve or anyone, do you experience focus shift with any of your Dagors? My 12" shifts the focus behind the point I focus when stopped down but none of the others that I've owned shifted. I also have a very nice triple convertible Wollensak Ia 8-1/4" (12.75 and 15.5 components) that shifts focus in front of the point of focus with both groupings combined for the 8.25 FL. Why does one shift to the front and the other shift to the rear? I've never had a view lens shift focus. It's no big deal and i just focus stopped down a couple of stops and that takes care of it.

Steve Hamley
6-Apr-2009, 16:52
Don,

Not that I've noticed. I generally compose, focus not being critical, then stop down a couple of stops or more (whatever the lighting will stand) then focus critically.

Harley says all lenses will shift focus when stopped down, and that you should always focus as close to the taking aperture as possible. I don't think all lenses shift enough to be a problem - I actually think few do as you've noted - but his advice is sound.

Cheers, Steve

Don Dudenbostel
6-Apr-2009, 17:00
I've always focused wide open and then stopped down to working aperture and never had any issues. Harley worked with Artars, WA Dagors and Dagors for fifty years so that could be why he says that. I've worked mostly with Symmars, Artars, Super Angulons, a few Dagors and WA Dagors but mostly Schneider glass. It's been these two exceptions, the Wollensak and this 12" Dagor, that have broken the focus rule. My Protar VII, Ektars, Turner Reich triple convertible or any Zeiss lenses have shifted.

I would love to know why one in the same design and not another????

I guess it's never a bad idea to focus near the working aperture then stop down to the desired F stop.

Bill_1856
6-Apr-2009, 17:41
I have a 120mm Series III, and 150 and 210 American Dagors. There's no focus shift on stopping down in any of them.
I've always wondered if the reported shift could be either mismatched front/rear elements, or perhaps the aperture is not centered exactly between the elements.
OTOH, my pride and joy is a Dr. Staeble Polyplast Satz, (in a tiny little Compound shutter),which goes from 105mm, 135mm, 165mm, and 195mm with the interchange of the front elements, and 220mm for the rear element only. There is a 1/8" focus shift forward for all combionations, and 1/8" shift rearward for the rear element only.

Don Dudenbostel
6-Apr-2009, 18:03
The front and rear groups have the same SN. I think my 12" is in the original shutter. The only thing I can figure is manufacturing variations.

Dan Fromm
7-Apr-2009, 03:03
Um, Don, the lens was redesigned and redesigned and ... The name applies to a type, not to a specific design.

See http://www.dioptrique.info/base/n/n_dagor.htm for Goerz and http://www.dioptrique.info/base/n/n_beryl.htm for the Boyer equivalents. Look here http://www.dioptrique.info/base/f/f6-1914.htm and here http://www.dioptrique.info/base/f/f6.htm too.