Choosing the camera

[zpe]

Please, could somebody give me advice which one camera is better to choose for landscape shooting:

Wista 45DX, VX, V

or Toyo 45AII

:confused: :confused:

Thanks in advance

[Ron Marshall]

I may be able to, but first you must give me more information. What lenses do you plan to use, how important is weight?

One on your list is wood (DX), one I am not familiar with (V), the others are metal. All excellent cameras.

[Ralph Barker]

:Better" is highly subjective, "better for you" even more so. You will, however, find various threads here relating to both brands that might help you with your decision.

Within the Toyo line, if you want to save a little weight and some cash, also consider the 45AX model.

[Frank Petronio]

Buy one and use it, buy another, sell the worst, repeat... they are all good cameras, it really depends on you. If you are a careful shopper you won't lose any money.

Buying and selling cameras is a great hobby unto itself.

[Peter De Smidt]

I've been through a lot of cameras, and I agree with Frank. The best way to know about a camera is to use one for awhile. That said, I just bought a Toyo 45 AX on the for-sale forum, and so far it's my favorite camera that I've had for landscape photography, and I've used Linhof, Toho, Graphic, Ebony, Arca Swiss, Sinar, Chamonix.... It's sturdy and easy to use, without being ridiculously over built or expensive. I don't have to worry about alignment every time I use the back extension, unlike the Chamonix. It focuses a 65mm lens on a flat board just fine. There isn't that much room for movements when the bellows are compressed that much, but then a 65mm doesn't require all that much movement capability. The AX is an ARII without the revolving back. I'd rather save the weight and have a simple reversing back, especially for landscape photography.

[Archphoto]

Wood versus metal.....

Wood for the looks, metal if you want a camera without having to worry about a little scatch here and there.

At the end the quality of your lenses and your capabilities will be shown in the end result: your photo's.

For pure weight, long hikes trough the mountains: a Chamonix.
For shots in flatland, close to your car: a Sinar P2 that you can upgrade to 8x10 inch once you got the LF bug into your blood........

Peter

[Walter Calahan]

Shooting landscapes with either camera will be fine depending on the lenses you plan to use and your workflow.

It comes down to whether you like working with one or the other. That said, there is no 'perfect' camera.

[Frank Petronio]

Like Peter I've used almost everything myself, but if you're just starting it seems a shame to go and spend nearly $1000 on a camera when for $250 or so you can get a nice Crown Graphic (few movements but a bullet-proof box) or a Cambo monorail (plentiful, cheap, flexible with full movements) or a dozen other good but not swanky cameras. That way you can spend your money on film and if you take to it, better lenses and supplies, then work up to a fancier camera.

If read this forum for a while it makes you think you need a $1000 Chamonix or a $3000 Ebony/Arca-Swiss with a rack of four $1200 Schneider lenses and a drum scanner and couple of workstations and a Epson 9800... to make a successful photograph.

[Walter Calahan]

But Frank, if he has the money, the economy will like him for buying an Ebony, Schneider, drum scanner, a huge workstation, and the latest greatest printer. Spread the wealth, 'cause I ain't got any. HA!!!

[Frank Petronio]

Every couple of weeks I get a message that goes like, "I just got laid-off and I've always wanted to be a professional photographer, so what camera should I get?"

I don't even answer those anymore.

[Archphoto]

This is a bit about money and a lot more.

The lenses are your biggest expence, than comes the camera, then the cost for your film.
The lenses have to fit your view, the way YOU look into this world.
I am wide-angled in my view, favorite 35mm lens: a 14-28mm zoom for my DSLR (a 7-14mm Olympus with cropfactor 2 ), on 4x5 inch a 75mm SA and the 58XL.

As it has been said before: look at your present format and look what lens you use most and then buy that lens in the 4x5 inch eq.

Frank is right when he says a Cambo SC or Legend can be a great starter camera, or, or, or....

One needs to feel the camera and see if it will have the the movements you need.
A monorail is wonderfull in both the studio and on location, I have used my Sinar P2 for over 15 years to shoot architecture. But that is me !

Movements:
for landscape: some shift and tilt from the front standard;
for architecture: lots of shift front and back > monorail, bag bellows, wide angle
for the studio: focussing back as the lens-object distance determines the magnification of the object > monorail (I have tried it with a Master Technika without the focussing back > terrible)

Just some thoughts...... I just bought myself an used Shen Hao to complement my P2.

Peter

[Frank Petronio]

Yeah and the other thing is that a $200 210mm Schneider will be as sharp as that $1200 110mm XL lenses...

[Archphoto]

On 4x5 you don't need a 110XL actualy, I got a 115mm Grandagon and it has plenty of IC. That lens lengh gives you a more moderate perspective, esp st close distances over say a 75mm.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Suggest you might want to work backwards to choose your actual lenses first before committing to one camera over another. True, the camera itself has the least to do with the quality of the image itself-- that is, provided you can even use a particular lens, and hopefully without serious compromise (focus from infinity to close-up, can you reach and read the aperture lever). Lens specs may either be available online (anything reasonably current), or else someone here will likely already have tried the camera and lens combo in question.

Should you decide you need a fast W/A, you'll want to make sure the rear cell fits through the opening of the front standard and it will be more useful if the camera allows for rise/fall with the lens mounted. Not certain but I seem recall a recent thread wherein the Toyo 45AII or another model Toyo metal field was noted for being constrained to slower lenses. Most of the common press cameras will also have this limitation.

[Ole Tjugen]

This is a bit about money and a lot more.

The lenses are your biggest expence, than comes the camera, then the cost for your film.
...

I thought so too, until I realised I mostly use $100 lenses on $2000 cameras - a Carbon Infinity 4x5 and a Gandolfi Traditional 10x8"...

[Archphoto]

My Master Technika came with a 5.6/75mm SA and that fits well.
The 72mm XL is a bit tricky, I would use the Sinar with bag bellows for it.

One lens that would not fit a Master Technika board is the 210SW in Copal 3.

Other than that..... a 47XL could give problems, the 58XL in a field is tricky to say the least (monorail and bag bellows OK).

I don't expect 8x10 lenses to be used on a field camera, otherwise you will get into problems with the 210 SA and the longer lenses, over 300mm non-tele.

If you decide for a field camera and a 75mm check for problems before you buy.
Any field camera has limitations over a mono-rail camera

Peter

[Archphoto]

@ Ole.......

Yep, and I will do to if I have a chance: and old brass lens that I got for free on a Sinar P2 8x10.... YES !
That lens should cover 5x7, who knows......

Peter

[Peter De Smidt]

A couple of random points.

There are a lot of great older cameras, especially monorails. Older Calumet and Kodak monorails, in particular, can be quit the bargain, but so can used Horseman, Cambo and others. (I have a bunch of used Horseman monorails at the studio that have been gathering dust for years.)

The problem, though, is that unless you know quite a bit about things, older cameras can be problematic. Bellows can be expensive to replace, shutters need to be CL'A'd, ground glass might be dark and dingy, the rangefinder might be dodgy, there might be an alignment issue, like I had on a Linhof Tech III that I once had, movement capacity could be limited.... Not having direct front tilt with a crown graphic, for example, is a pain. It's true that there are problems with newer cameras too, but usually not as many. A new or lightly used Shen Hao, Chamonix, Toyo ... might make starting out easier. Plus after all of the fixing up, how much cheaper do the really old cameras end up being?

At one time I bought a Keith twin lens 4x5. I asked the owner, "How is it?" "Soft." he replied. I bet it was, as it had a piece of silk taped behind the taking lens, and the ground glass was in backwards.

A great older beginning landscape camera would be a Super Graphic in ready-to-use-with-no-functional-issues condition, but looking at ebay pricing, the cost of one of these can get kinda high.

On 4x5 the 110XL Schneider aspheric is a great lens! It's lighter, more compact, and sharper than F8 wide angle types. That said, I had to sell mine awhile ago for financial reasons, darn it.

I have a Schneider 72mm XL that i plan to use with my Toyo. I put it on the camera a few days ago, and it fit with no problems.

Sinar Ps and P2s are great cameras, with reasonably priced accessories. I love mine. But for landscape photography away from the car, it's too bulky and heavy for me.

[Ole Tjugen]

... On 4x5 the 110XL Schneider aspheric is a great lens! It's lighter, more compact, and sharper than F8 wide angle types. That said, I had to sell mine awhile ago for financial reasons, darn it. ...

Oh yes - and a plain old 120mm f:6.8 Angulon is a great "short normal", too. And a lot lighter and more compact than the 110XL!

[Archphoto]

One thing I would be a bit worried about real old monorails is the availability of lensboards.
The Shen Hoa, the Chamonix, Toyo Field (?) and Wita use all the same lensboards and are readily available.

I have all my lenses (exept for the 210SW) on Master Technika boards.
For the Sinar I use an adapter board for them.

And YES the Sinar P2 is a heavy beast, esp with the 8x10 front and back standard blocks.
That is why I bought a Shen Hoa lately.

Peter

[Frank Petronio]

The Toyo uses a different lensboard than the common 4x5 "Technika" board used by Linhof, Wista, Shen, Chamonix, and others... but there is even a special Toyo model that takes the Technika boards.

You can spend $$$ on a Linhof-made board or find a generic.

[Ole Tjugen]

BTW - I started with a 5x7" Linhof Technika with a 4x5" reduction back, then got a Linhof Color. The Color is a great little monorail, and is the second best camera I have ever used. Only the Carbon Infinity is both more portable, more stable and more flexible.

for 5x7" I went from Linhof Technika to Gandolfi Traditional. Just as rigid, more movements, and several kilos lighter. The only drawback is the shorter bellows, so I got a 10x8" Gandolfi and a reduction back for whenever I really need more extension.


So I went from an all-Linhof lineup (with adapter) board to more than four different cameras with more than five different lensboard sizes (no, it's not a miscount: The 10x8" Gandolfi has two front standards - one for Gandolfi boards, one for Sinar) with no adapter boards at all. The SKGrimes lens wrench is my most-sought-after-accessory - I keep mislaying it. :p

[Archphoto]

@ Frank : Wista boards are cheaper, but when buying a $ 1500,- lens, why bother about $ 100,- for the board with the att for the cable release ?!
Good for a tax-write-off anyway.

@ Oly : please drill a hole in the midle of that key and bang a nail in a well seen place,,,,,

Peter

[Peter De Smidt]

Shen-Hao makes great Technika boards for little money. They're a good choice unless you have lot's of money like Archphoto ;) Toyo makes an adapter that allows use of Technika boards on Toyo field cameras. It's not too expensive.

[Archphoto]

Thanks for the tip Peter (from Dutch origin ?).
I think the Shen Hoa comes with 2 lensboards ans I got a spare Linhof board complete with cable release att for Compur/Copal 0 laying around too, so I will have to look for some new glass...
Will have to earn some money first though.....

Peter

[Ole Tjugen]

BTW - I started with a 5x7" Linhof Technika with a 4x5" reduction back, then got a Linhof Color. The Color is a great little monorail, and is the second best camera I have ever used. Only the Carbon Infinity is both more portable, more stable and more flexible.

for 5x7" I went from Linhof Technika to Gandolfi Traditional. Just as rigid, more movements, and several kilos lighter. The only drawback is the shorter bellows, so I got a 10x8" Gandolfi and a reduction back for whenever I really need more extension.


So I went from an all-Linhof lineup (with adapter) board to more than four different cameras with more than five different lensboard sizes (no, it's not a miscount: The 10x8" Gandolfi has two front standards - one for Gandolfi boards, one for Sinar) with no adapter boards at all. The SKGrimes lens wrench is my most-sought-after-accessory - I keep mislaying it. :p