From 4x5 to 8x10 - Shall I do it?

[zwicko]

Hi everyone,

I am thinking about upgrading my Sinar f2 from 4x5 to 8x10.
Someone made a reasonable offer for a P2 rear standard (the "special", sturdier one), bellows, frame etc. that is really tempting.
But: What do you do with your 8x10 negatives?
I have an 4x5 enlarger, so I could only do contact prints from my 8x10 negatives.
Is that satisfying enough to jump onto 8x10?
I don´t see myself buying another enlarger at the moment as my girlfriend would most probably kill me if I did...

Any thoughts to share?

Cheers, Zwicko

[ARGYROTYPE]

Get a different girlfriend! COntact prints from 8x10 or larger are da bomb...then it's palladium ziatypes, conversion to Solarplate positive and photogravures---sky's the limit.

[BarryS]

I agree, 8x10 is great for alt-process work, but I wouldn't want to go without a 4x5. The weight, bulk, and cost really shoot up in the jump to 8x10. Check out the cost of 8x10 film and holders before you decide. If you can keep your 4x5 pieces and buy the extra 8x10 parts, you'd probably be happier.

[Photojeep]

Oh h@ll yes! 8x10 is incredibly fun to shoot!
Contact printing of 8x10 will work until you figure out the enlarger part.

Have fun!
Randy

[Gem Singer]

I am in a similar situation. Have the facility to develop 8X10 negatives, but not enlarge them optically.

Found 8X10 contact prints to be too small for my taste.

Presently, i am scanning my 8X10 B&W negatives, editing in Photoshop, and printing on a 13" inkjet printer.

At the 13X19 print size, I can discern very little difference, if any, between prints made from 4X5 negatives and those made with 8X10 negatives.

However, an 8X10 negative would probably prove to be more advantageous if I was planning on producing larger prints.

[Walter Calahan]

8x10 is great. 4x5 is tiny after you've shot 8x10 for a while.

But don't get an 8x10 enlarger if your girlfriend will kill you. HA!

I scan my negatives.

[ic-racer]

Do it! :)

[jb7]

I did it recently-
it never occurred to me to ask first...

[DJGainer]

Do you really think you have a choice? I haven't jumped yet but know it is inevitable (and futile to fight it!).

[Ben Syverson]

After working with 8x10 for a while now, 4x5 feels so fiddly.

Being able to see the image at 8x10 size on the ground glass is addictive...

[Archphoto]

Shooting 4x5 is ration, 8x10 is better for the mind, but not for your wallet and then you get used to 8x10 you want a real Lotus........ 16x20 inch of it......

Try to be practical: if you don't have a 300mm yet you should calculate that into the cost of getting into 8x10.
If you want a 8x10 P2 back standard, you will want a P2 8x10 front standard aswell.....
2 extra bellows (standard and bag bellows ), longer or extra rail, larger case for it, heavier tripod and head, filmholders and much later on a Chromega D.......

I realy think your girlfriend is thinking house and other things, I am afraid.
Come to think of it: I do not understand why I got a divorce: my ex loves my P2 8x10....

Peter

[C. D. Keth]

Try to be practical: if you don't have a 300mm yet you should calculate that into the cost of getting into 8x10.
If you want a 8x10 P2 back standard, you will want a P2 8x10 front standard aswell.....
2 extra bellows (standard and bag bellows ), longer or extra rail, larger case for it, heavier tripod and head, filmholders and much later on a Chromega D.......

Plus add the extra film cost and the fact that your chemicals are depleted 4x as fast. If you're into color work, it's massively expensive to do that in 8x10.

[Gene McCluney]

Edward Weston didn't have an enlarger. Nuff said. With a "P" system Sinar, you don't absolutely "have" to have a standard specified for 8x10, you can put the 8x10 back on the normal rear standard. I think the 8x10 standard have an additional lock-down of some sort. I don't know for sure, since I have a 5x7 "P" expert system with 8x10 and 4x5 backs. If you need more bellows than the 8x10 back comes with, just add an (relatively) inexpensive "F" standard as a middle standard, and use a 4x5 bellows from that forward to the lens.

[Jim Graves]

I'm going thru the same point now also.

My compromise has been to keep my 4x5 and get a "cheap" old Empire State #2 and some older (read inexpensive) but serviceable lenses. This has allowed me to try it out and see how it works for what I shoot ... which is an eclectic mix mostly around town, but also backpacking, and occasional shooting trips. I like to take my 4x5 camera with me wherever I go. It is always in the trunk or back seat ... even when I run errands.

I've been shooting 8x10 now for about 6 months. What I've found it useful for is 1) alternative processes, and 2) going back out to get a special picture that I've already shot with my 4x5.

I agree with BarryS ... don't go into 8x10 without keeping some sort of 4x5 system.

Most of the advantages/disadvantages of 8x10 have already been mentioned. I find 3 BIG disadvantages: 1) mobility (and cost) severely limits the # of pictures I can (or am willing) to get to to take, 2) cost - both equipment and usage ... I can bracket every shot I take on both sides of the estimated exposure using 4x5 cheaper than shooting/developing one 8x10 shot, 3) with 8x10 contact printing you are stuck with the framing you have from whatever location you can get to with the lenses you have ... i.e you don't get to do much cropping or to do blow-ups ... I find that extremely limiting in getting the best composed image onto the final print.

Now if you're going to scan your negatives (I don't .... yet) disadvantage #3 disappears ... but I think there's a legitimate dispute about whether ink jet negatives from scanned negatives are of the same quality as direct contact prints from the original ... if they're not as good, then some at least one of the listed advantages of the 8x10 disappears.

[bspeed]

that way I see it, is you need to get on Craigslist, and find a girlfriend with an 8x10 enlarger......

[Drew Wiley]

Doing my taxes this time of year, and comparing to many previous years, I notice that
my film expenses have stayed fairly constant despite making the transition from 4x5 to
8x10. The format is a bit slower to operate and the fact of greater expense per shot makes one cautious. Nevertheless dropping a hundred bucks this afternoon for my E-6
bill isn't something I relish. But I average only one color shot per week at most. B&W
is much more affordable. Enlargers can be brutal if you're shopping them new, but
with patience you can find a deal and refurbish one. I still use 4x5 for longer backpacks
and airline use, but 8x10 is SO much more fun, not to mention its more critical focus
and really crisp enlargements.

[Archphoto]

The "thing" with the Sinar P2 standards is that the 8x10 ones are heavier and have more movement. The 4x5 ones look tiny compared to the 8x10's.
I have the 8x10 version with the conversion kit to 4x5: rear frame and bellows.
Works great, with the added bonus of more movement in shifts.

With a 4x5 rear standard and a 8x10 frame on it and a standard 4x5 front standard you are verry limited in your movements, esp. shifts.

Peter

[Scott-S]

like bensyverson, after looking and composing through an 8x10 ground glass its hard to go back to 4x5. I am only doing 8x10 because I want to contact print otherwise I would do 4x5... but then again I don't want to buy a 4x5 enlarger...

[John Powers]

I discovered that my RZ67 configured as it is, my Linhof Technikadan 45 and my RH Phillips 810 weigh about 6.5 pounds each. You should see the difference in detail and tonal range at 20"x24". Oh yeah, I bought a second enlarger.

Now, to the girlfriend thing. This is a second marriage for both of us. Both our first spouses found other people and made their lives absolutely miserable with them. There is a God. Having visited college gang darkrooms my second wife said, "Oh no, I don't want a smelly darkroom in my house. I tried the, “one careful adult as opposed to 15 crazy teenagers throwing fixer in the air" routine. I tried the elaborate ventilating system discussion. Then after forty years in sales I remembered the most important rule, put the discussion in terms that are significant to the other person. I smiled at her one day and said, “You know, the man who has a hobby in the basement tends to stay at home.” She said, “How much space do we need for the new darkroom?”

I hope you enjoy your 8x10 camera and enlarger as much as I do. My wife loves to brag about her artistic husband and hustles people to my shows in a way that is quite endearing and only a little bit embarrassing to me.

By the way I do most of my shooting in 7x17 now. I really like those contact prints and that camera is only 12 pounds. Divorce is expensive and painful. Better to know now than later.

John

[Cristiano Abreu]

I was on the same boat 2 months or so ago. I got a F2 8x10 conversion kit on eBay and never looked back since then. Contact printing was my goal, but looking at a 8x10 GG as become so addictive. When using my 4x5 now, it almost feel like I'm looking through a tiny dSLR viewfinder ;) You can almost compose loupe-free on the larger format, if your eyes are that good.
I've got a Deardorff V8 on the way to gain more mobility. I won't call it an addiction... more like a disease.

[zwicko]

Wow, that´s a lot of response! Thank you so much!

As I already own an extension rail, a sturdy tripod, two lenses that will cover 8x10 (240 and 360) it is only the P2 parts that I would have to pay for.

The offer also includes a Berlebach Uni tripod (don´t know if it comes with a head), a few boxes of film and one film holder.

BTW: I wouldn´t want to sell my 4x5 gear, maybe I didn´t state that clear enough in my first post.

Well, to make a long story short:
It looks like it is unavoidable to buy that thing... ;)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Zwicko

[Larry Menzin]

I say go for it.

I got an 8x10 format set in the fall and have not shot 4x5 since. It's all big and heavy but the result is worth it.

Your girlfriend sounds at least as bad as a wife. Unless she's got a ton of family dough, maybe she's expendable!

[John Jarosz]

I've not shot 4x5 since my move to 8x10 and then 8x20. But the reasoning may surprise you. I think differently about photography when the end result is contact printing. 4x5 is a completely different animal than 8x10 and up.

John

[Peter K]

Your girlfriend sounds at least as bad as a wife. Unless she's got a ton of family dough, maybe she's expendable!
That's the difference: the relationship to your 8x10" camera lasts a life long. And no jealousy if you look for a second one.

[zwicko]

Hi Peter,
good to see (well, read) you here!

Cheers, Zwicko

[dng88]

I tried 4x5 quite a few times. It is not really me. Got my second 8x10 in the last few months (Kodak 2D is too restricted then a Deardroff.) I loved it very much. The key in fact is no enlargement. You see what you get to a large extent as enlargement change and contact print does not.

But it is heavy and you are very restricted, much more than 4x5 but then 4x5 is not a mobile platform compared with my D300.

[BennehBoy]

I got an 8x10 format change kit for my p2 and like those above have not shot 4x5 since.

[zwicko]

And by the way folks: My girlfriend is the best girlfriend one can imagine. :)

Cheers, Zwicko

[John Kasaian]

doitdoitdoitdoitdoit! :)

[ljsegil]

And by the way folks: My girlfriend is the best girlfriend one can imagine.

Then she'll understand that 8x10 is the best format one can imagine (doesn't she want you to have a bigger one anyway?). And you also gain the benefit of being able to shoot 4x10 panoramas with just a split darkslide. Even more fun at no extra expense.
LJS

[zwicko]

And by the way folks: My girlfriend is the best girlfriend one can imagine.

Then she'll understand that 8x10 is the best format one can imagine (doesn't she want you to have a bigger one anyway?).

:D :D

[richfrank]

I've decided to sell my 4 x5 gear amd shoot only 8 x 10 - of course I'm a weekend warrior. The basis for my decision is my goal with 8 x 10 - I want to place a half dozen large prints on my walls - send your good negatives to Lenny Eiger for scanning and printing - you won't be diappointed"

[Capocheny]

Hi Zwicko,

8x10 is definitely a different animal than 4x5 and it is MUCH, MUCH easier to focus... like looking at a television screen.

That said, if you want to do ANY field work, you're going to find the P2 a heavy beast to lug around. If you can get the conversion kit for a great price and want to use it in the studio (or next to the vehicle)... that's one thing.

If you want to shoot 8x10 and carry it ANY distance out in the field (other than a very short distance)... you may want to think about something that's lighter in weight. Consider a Dorff 8x10, or a Canham, or some other field camera.

Otherwise, make sure you're bulking up muscle since you're sure going to need it to lug that P2 8x10 around. :)

Just a my 2 cents worth.

Cheers

[Lenny Eiger]

Being able to see the image at 8x10 size on the ground glass is addictive...

This reminds me of a funny story. When I was young I had great vision. In photo school I started with 35, then went to 4x5 and then 8x10, which I loved. Everything was so clear and in focus on the ground glass. It was a great world in there, under the dark cloth.

Then I went to an optometrist and found out what was really happening was that I needed glasses... everyone else saw everything in focus, just like I did under the dark cloth.

I'm a fan of the 8x10 (tho' not a fan of carrying it). It has a quality you just can't get otherwise - unless you go larger, of course. I'm scanning, so larger isn't much help...

Lenny

P.S. Thanks, Rich.

[kev curry]

BTW: I wouldn´t want to sell my 4x5 gear, maybe I didn´t state that clear enough in my first post.

Zwicko

I think thats a wise move at least until you've experienced 8x10. Its such a totally different beast from 5x4.

Enjoy the journey.

[John Powers]

Enjoy the journey.

And speaking of journey...Much has been written here about carrying big cameras. I use a baby jogger for 4x5, 8x10 and 7x17. This one has 20 inch wheels, hundred pound shocks and I am quite comfortable pushing it four miles round trip on trails, open fields or the towpath for my OH & Erie Canal series. It won’t work on stairs or cliffs, but neither will I at age 69.
http://babyjogger.com/perf_jogger_lp.aspx

John

[Nana Sousa Dias]

I would say it depends on the kind of photography you want to do. There are some sort of photos that will look better if enlarged to big sizes. This is a bit subjective, however. I prefer to see big landscape emlarged photos than a 8x10 contact print, but, again, this is subjective. Michael Kenna's minimalist landscape images look very well in 8x8" prints from hasselblad negatives. On the other hand, landscape photos with a lot of detail as, for example, Clyde Butcher's, will look better in big sizes.
If you plan to shoot vegetables, flowers, metallic objects, etc, that is a great choice to shoot with 8x10 and contact print. Some kind of studio portrait is great too for contact print but not easy to shoot with an 8x10 camera. I use 2 8x10 cameras, a Cambo Legend 8x10 in the studio and a Kodak 2D for outside work. I think it's the cheapest way of doing 8x10 photos. Cameras like the Cambo or Calumet, are cheap in the second hand market and the Kodak 2D or a B&J field, are also cheap cameras. I did once an outside session with the Cambo Legend and it was a real paine!
Some guys have told that the GG image on a 8x10 camera is a special vision, wich is true. A big negative is also a pleasure to look and a good 8x10 contact print is something special. The biggest problem with 8x10 is that there isn't a return way, once you have a good contact print of one of your photos, your life will change!:)

[Armin Seeholzer]

"And by the way folks: My girlfriend is the best girlfriend one can imagine. "

Only if she kisses you twice after you buyed the 2. 8x10 field one, because the Sinar is only a studio und out of car cam!

Don't worry be happy and buy it, cameras last for a livetime girlfriends not always
;--))))

Cheers Armin

[sanchi heuser]

I guess sooner or later I'll jump on the 8x10 train:) .
My girlfriend and I are together nearly 20 years and I know that she'll love it.
Like she loved before my painting with oil and acrylic colors in the living room. Or the moment I showed here
a page in a magazine which showed a 4x5 field camera and saying to her: "This is the next step".
A little time before we made holidays in Paris and I ran around like a maniac with my 4,95€ disposable camera.

[zwicko]

Thanks for all your suggestions.
Just wanted to let you know that I just bought a P2 8x10"!
I must be mad, mad, mad,...

Really looking forward to using the beast!

Cheers,

Zwicko

[ljsegil]

Congratulations on achieving madness. You won't regret it (most of the time).
LJS

[Archphoto]

Congrad's !!!!

If you don't have it allready: get yourself: a 4x5 backframe, a 4x5 standard bellows and a 4x5 bag bellows and you will have yourself a set for a lifetime !

I have this set for more than 15 years and I love it.

Peter

[Peter K]

Just wanted to let you know that I just bought a P2 8x10"!
I must be mad, mad, mad,...
Welcome to the club! :D

Have fun,

Peter K

[MIke Sherck]

Thanks for all your suggestions.
Just wanted to let you know that I just bought a P2 8x10"!
I must be mad, mad, mad,...

Really looking forward to using the beast!

Cheers,

Zwicko

Congratulations! Now try to avoid looking at an 11x14 or larger ground glass. If 4x5 is like looking through a porthole and 8x10 like looking through a window, well, the bigger the camera the better the view. ;)

You'll have fun with 8x10.

Mike

[zwicko]

Congratulations! Now try to avoid looking at an 11x14 or larger ground glass.

I´ll do my best but can´t promise anything... ;) :D

Cheers, Zwicko

[MIke Sherck]

I´ll do my best but can´t promise anything... ;) :D

Cheers, Zwicko

With that attitude, I predict you're on the way to finding out what your girl friend really thinks of you! :rolleyes:

Mike

[Armin Seeholzer]

You just have to tell here bigger is always better;--)))))
And she will understand:p :D :cool: :)

[zwicko]

You just have to tell here bigger is always better;--)))))
And she will understand

:D :D

[emo supremo]

Embrace the Dark Side, Luke. Besides, that itch for more gear never goes away, does it. Did it two weeks ago and she's a lot less mad this morning. What are you prepared to give up for her? THAT"S the answer to your question; be certain to negotiate this up front. In writing.

[zwicko]

Embrace the Dark Side, Luke.

Errr, shouldn´t that be "Embrace the Dark Slide? :D :D