Plunged into 8x10 and struck a rock on ebay HELP

[emo supremo]

Bought my first 8x10 yesterday. Very disappointed. I'm trying to be fair but what do you do with a person like this?

With your impartial/objective perspective would you please tell me what kind of feedback is appropriate? I want to be a good member of the LF community.


BUYERS VIEWPOINT:

Having received the item I am compelled to leave negative feedback for the following reasons. You are given the opportunity (24 hours) to justify your words "Good Condition" "Works Perfectly" which I feel mendacious for the following facts: 1. "Wood is in good condition" in fact shows water damage, swelling to the point of an actual crack not disclosed 2. "Bellows in great shape with no light leaks" the bellows has seven light leaks; 3. your "extra lens board" clearly does not fit this camera; 4. yes, you mention "some separation at the seam" of the 4x5back but you failed to state it has warped to the point it no longer fits in camera and therefore is not consistent with "works perfectly" 5. "All movements and metal parts work smooth and lock down tight" inconsitent with severe, extensive pitting and corrosion of all non-SS parts and 6. item is severely mildewed, so much so it cannot come into the house. Moisture damaged. All are inconsistent with your bona fides. Your response please?


SELLERS DESCRIPTION:

Original Authentic 8 x 10 Deardorff View Camera. Good condition, works perfectly.
Includes 8 x 10, 5 x 7 and 4 x 5 backs. Ground glass on 8 x 10 and 5 x 7 missing. 4 x 5 back has some separation at the seam (see picture for detail)
Bellows in great shape with no light leaks. Wood is in good condition, signs of normal wear and tear.
All movements and metal parts work smooth and lock down tight.
As to be expected, the bottom and base plate shows scratches from normal wear.

[Juergen Sattler]

More importantly - you need to file a claim with Paypal, if you have not done so yet and get your money back! As to feedback, the seller obviously deserves negative feedback in a big way, but first, get your money!

[bspeed]

do try and get a refund.
With the number of bidders though, it seesm you could just resell it.
some plasti-dip "plasti tape" liquid will fix bellows in some case, quite well it seems.
mildew: wipe it down with bleach maybe?

I looked at the item, and I will offer this advice:

red flags:
1 seller is not a "normal" camera seller.
2. not enough pics
3. pics to dark.
4. bellows do look worn.
5. the back problem is pictured, and would have to be considered not usable.
6. streaky? looking ground glass in one of the pics.

I may be wrong, but are you and others paying a premium for a name ? versus what else might be out there in better condition, but not as popular or name famous.

[Blair Ware]

I also had a look at the auction; despite the glowing description, the photos show a very tired camera. If it were mine, I would talk with the seller and see if he/she will take a return. I have had very good success in reasonably discussing options with sellers post purchase.

[walter23]

It's hard to tell the condition from the auction photos; it could just be worn looking but perfectly functional as described. Even the seam (as shown) may have just been loosened glue which could be easily fixed, rather than the water damage described by the buyer.

Of course I don't know your expectations either, so I can't really make any kind of real judgement here (you may be one of those guys who buys a beater and expects it to be mint ;)), but if you really feel like it's in honestly awful condition and it was misrepresented, nail the guy for the bad description. First just see if he'll give you a complete refund on return - hey may be completely reasonable about it. If not, then file a dispute with paypal and take him to task.

[Cristiano Abreu]

Sorry to ear things went awfully wrong for you. More so, because i was that close to put also my money on that auction.
And I'm very concerned now, because I'm waiting for a V8, from another auction, to arrive. I sure... sure hope that the seller is a lot more serious than the one you experienced from. The worse is that I've an ocean separating me from the seller :(
IMO you should send the camera back. If the seller doesn't agree to receive it back, then fill a complaint with eBay and leave negative feedback, to warn others of a less scrupulous seller.
But, lets hope things don't have to go that far...

[Bruce Schultz]

Who is the seller? If the guy doesn't cooperate, then let us know his name so we don't get stuck also.

[emo supremo]

Hello Colleagues, I took a day off to cool down. The seller has not responded and I resent the original email. I'll keep you appraised of what transpires so that others will have guidance should this happen to you in the future. I'll also ask the Gatekeeper of this LF forum about revealing the identity of the seller. Best regards, emilio

[emo supremo]

In fairness to the seller I am told that he/she emailed me over the weekend. These messages most certainly did NOT appear in the Ebay window under "Messages" but, in fairness to this seller, there were two messages in my private email at work this morning (but none in the ebay message window) that the seller had acted as intermediary for the original seller who composed the description. This seller was acting as agent. No good deed goes unpunished. Seller probably a nice person who got caught up in someone else's mendacity? In fairness to the seller, the seller did offer to accept return of this item but I suppose I'm out the $50 shipping, lost considerable time and effort making negatives, and very jaded about ebay.

This week I asked a different seller if the 6x9 back would fit a Sinar. It doesn't. This follows on the cusp of buying a camera body described as "Excellent"; the meter was dead on arrival.Tried in vain to return it and, to add insult to injury, if you wait too long you're not able to leave negative feedback (?!). I got played. Consequently, in this case I felt compelled to leave negative feedback to act as bulwark against future misadventures.

In summary, the words "good" and "excellent" and "working" have become meaningless. Hope you never have to walk this path! Thank you all for your guidance.

[emo supremo]

Thank you Walter about the seam but no I tried firmly to see if the mortise could be coaxed back onto the tenon. Pieces wouldn't budge. Perhaps clamps will true it up. Perhaps clamps will split the wood.
Thank you Dakotah. I did not wish to get a Deardorf because the forum raves about the Tachihara-type 8x10's but it seems one could wait forever for a used one on auction in ebay. But it is a piece of Americana. If only they didn't smell atrocious.
Thank you Bruce but because the seller seems to want to do right (agree to refund) I think it best not to go further with recriminations. Seems fair enough.
Dear Cristiano, "Caveat Emptor" (ask for macrophotographs of threads of screws; Pic of bellows extended with a sock in the lensboard....) see also bspeed
Dear Bspeed, yes I did aks seller what the streaks were prior to bid...they are reflections in ground glass.
To Juergen and the other members, thanks again for your support.

[mandoman7]

I did not wish to get a Deardorf because the forum raves about the Tachihara-type 8x10's but it seems one could wait forever for a used one on auction in ebay. But it is a piece of Americana. If only they didn't smell atrocious.
.

My Deardorffs do not smell.:D

JY

[Frank Petronio]

Sounds like my recent experience with eBay -- got a RB Graflex and the shutter curtain was missing even though it was claimed to be working. If it feels sketchy, and this certainly sounds like it could be, I'd file a PayPal claim ASAP. It has no negative impact on them if they make good on it, but it sure gets their attention.

You should attempt to get your shipping costs back but other than ethics and guilt, it is hard to get any action on them... you can leave them negative feedback of course, but there isn't a sure-fire reasonable way to claim the $20 -$30 involved.

As some members explained to me and I tend to agree, this is the price we pay for the bargains on eBay -- the prices are lower than from a storefront and the customer service and quality are reflective of that. Not excusing it -- your deal sounds grossly wrong and you have every right to be upset.

[Ben Syverson]

I have had both positive and negative experiences with eBay. The Romans said it best 2000 years ago. Caveat emptor.

The onus is on you.

[RickV]

My sentiments exactly, bensyverson. Unfortunately, when it's a bad deal you feel like the anus was on you...

[Ben Syverson]

That is also true. :)

[venchka]

I quit purchasing from ebay. I have had nothing but good transactions with real photographers at this and other forums.

Good luck!

[Cristiano Abreu]

I quit purchasing from ebay. I have had nothing but good transactions with real photographers at this and other forums.

Good luck!

You're lucky to be on the correct side of the Atlantic... for us Europeans, there's not enough critical mass whiling to depart from their goods to buy directly in Euroland. Unfortunately, evilBay seems the easiest solution.

[Scott-S]

When I buy cameras on Ebay, as a rule, I only buy from the person who actually owned and used the camera or a reputable place that has a brick and mortar store with a phone number and address. I never buy from power sellers, estate sales etc.. because they don't know anything about the cameras.

[hmf]

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience.

I don't love eBay, but luckily have done very well on the few transactions I've completed. I try to know a lot about what I am buying and look very, very carefully at the photos and descriptions (and don't bid if either isn't revealing enough).

On a five-step scale (user, good, excellent, mint, like new), "good" is only one step up from the bottom.

[neil poulsen]

You're being very equitable. But, the camera should never have been listed in that condition as usable.

Get your money back and go to any length needed to do that. How many feedbacks does the seller have? I've heard EBay retains funds in PayPal for a period of time before granting requests to return money to a bank account for sellers with few feedback. Contact seller and EBay soon; you'll have a better chance of having your money returned.

Good luck, especially since even EBay itself can be unpredictable in how they'll respond.

[Michael Filler]

As a buyer I'd contact the seller and ask (demand) a full refund, including round trip shipping. If you get any "jazz" then lodge a complaint through e-bay. If you paid through paypal they can probably freeze the payment pending an investigation. As a last resort issue very negative feedback. You can always agree to have it removed later if you come to amicable terms.

This is how I as a seller would handle it. If I didn't describe it well then I would take it back. When I sell on ebay I always have a full refund, 7 day return policy, not counting shipping. Even if all it is is bad karma. If I screwed up I pay the round trip. I think this is the way to do business, treat people like I want to be treated.

Ebay basically runs on buyers. Yeah, the sellers are sometimes less informed about what they are selling than they should be, make grandiose claims unsubstantiated, but even then, if you are cordial, direct, explain why they are wrong (nicely), and most important give a specific course of action that will make the problem disappear most will go along with it. Ebay knows that without buyers nothing sells, and so they don't get the percentage on the closing price, nor the paypal fees through their subsidiary. They (I think) will usually side with the buyer. And yeah, the buyers put the stuff up and ebay couldn't live without them either, but they don't want a bad rap any more than the seller. Bad feedback sticks on a buyer for like a year, and I don't think they are allowed to "ding" a buyer anymore. I give a buyer good feedback as soon as his half of the transaction (he paid) is complete, not hold good feedback hostage until I got mine. Most sellers hold off on giving feedback until they get theirs, which I think is short sighted, cheap, mean spirted and or just lazy.

The bottom line: if you think you are right, and it seems that way, write the guy a nice polite letter and get your money back. If he won't cooperate use every tool at your disposal. Remember, nothing in anger, and never, ever write anything libelous. That means if you ever do write negative feedback just state the facts "it wasn't as described and he wouldn't take it back", not "he is a dishonest sack of sh.t" I would write it on paper first, leave it over night, show it to your neighbor and your kids before you post it publicly. Theyu can sue you.

Not sure if this helps, but remember to golden rule.

[Blair Ware]

Michael Filler said: "They can sue you"

Out of curiosity, has anyone heard of a suit let alone a successful one?

[Michael Filler]

I don't know if has ever happened on e-bay, but we do live a litigeous society. If you defame someone in a public forum, which e-bay's feedback system is, then you are at risk. I don't say it is going to happen, but why risk it?