Lodima Fine Art Paper - Available for purchase

[John Bowen]

For those of you waiting for the next run of Lodima, the details are available here http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/newpaper.html

[Toyon]

Very cool.

[Jan Pedersen]

Indeed, bring out the moldy credit card, buy a new freezer and order a load of Lodima paper.
Let's support this project the best we can.

[Roger Thoms]

I'm in for at least four boxes of 8x10. Going to try and avoid the credit card, um what can I sell?
Roger

[John Bowen]

Indeed, bring out the moldy credit card, buy a new freezer and order a load of Lodima paper.
Let's support this project the best we can.

You'll have to hunt for this on the Azo forum, but if you purchase $5,000 of Lodima you can select one of Paula's prints from the Azo portfolio. A purchase of $10,000 of Lodima gets you one of Paula's and one of Michael's prints from the Azo portfolio. I placed a large order yesterday and hope others will follow suit. Let's make this happen!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Well, even though I have gone over to carbon printing, I'm still going to order some of this paper. When I do print on silver it has been on Azo. Lodima in 8x10,11x14 and 8x20 will be nice to have on hand.

Jim

[John Bowen]

I need to attend a workshop and try carbon printing someday, but for now Azo and Lodima will have to do

[Alex Wei]

I am very interested to give this paper a try. I heard some people say G2 gives a higher contrast than G2, its actually close to G3, any comment from the users here? Thanks

[John Bowen]

Alex,

For the small pre-production run that was done last fall, the G2 Lodima paper was very, very, very close to Azo G3. Michael Smith intends to have a proper G2 paper run this time. Check out the Lodima section of the Azo Forum for much more information
http://www.michaelandpaula.com/mp/AzoForum/default.asp?BulletinCate=13

[John O'Connell]

Hmmm. I used some of my first-run Lodima. It was way more contrasty than Rochester grade 2 Azo. With the old Rochester Azo, you could take negatives that printed well on grade two and run them in Ziatype without contrast enhancement. Not true with the first run of Lodima.

Supposedly they're going to run a "proper" grade 2 and grade 3 Lodima. What that means if you deviate from the MAS process, which is very different than traditional print chemistry, is unclear.

[Kirk Keyes]

Michael Smith intends to have a proper G2 paper run this time.

Wasn't that what he intended the last time?

[Blacky Dalton]

Not to throw cold water on a hot iron, but has anyone addressed the issue as to the warranty this new paper may carry? I would certainly be interested in trying any new paper, but I would never venture more than one box to begin with. Buying $5-10K worth of an unproven paper is way beyond a risk that I would undertake without some guarantee, in writing, as to the long-term storage of such a product.

Does anyone know the keeping properties of Lodima? Please correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that Kodak Azo was one, if not the only, silver chloride paper that had good keeping properties. It is well proven that Azo keeps very well for over forty years, but what guarantee as to keeping properties do you get with Lodima? I have not seen any guarantee?

This is a completely new product, with untested and unproven keeping properties. What happens if my $10K stock of Lodima should go bad after a few years in storage? Do I get a refund? Do I get replacement paper? Or, am I just out of luck? There are far too many unanswered questions to risk a large sum of money without some sort of understand as to who stands behind the product and what the terms are in case something goes wrong. Just something to consider. I would certainly be interested in purchasing one box of 8x10 to test. I will not be sending $10k!

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I need to attend a workshop and try carbon printing someday, but for now Azo and Lodima will have to do

John, Sandy king is in your neck of the woods and is a master carbon printer. You should do yourself a favor and get a hold of Sandy and see what I mean. I will still use some Lodima as I know the quality that Michael and Paula demand. There are images that are not as well presented in carbon as they would be on a silver chloride paper. Lately my series on the survival of the Black Oak in Yosemite on carbon are outstanding. I have printed some of these images on Azo and even though they are nice they do not even come close to my carbon prints. Bold statement I know, but take a look at Sandy's prints and then tell me I'm wrong.

Jim

[Doug Dolde]

Will it work in my Epson 7900 ?

[Andrew O'Neill]

Lodima is for contact printing negatives...in a darkroom...but go ahead. I'm sure it'll go through your Epson just fine after you've fixed it.

[Doug Dolde]

Hard to believe people still do that in 2009.

[Pete Watkins]

Doug,
Some of us are still using big wooden cameras to produce the negatives that we use for contact printing, amazing eh!
Pete

[John Bowen]

Blacky,

Somewhere, either here, APUG or most likely on the Azo Forum, MAS has addressed the keeping properties of Lodima. They have run "advanced aging" tests to determine if the paper would keep over extended periods. Keep in mind, the largest purchaser of this paper will be MAS and he certainly would want it to keep for a while. I know the fall order of Lodima was limited to 250 boxes, so perhaps you could not participate at that time. But at least 250 of us have had the opportunity to try Lodima in our own darkrooms. Many folks were upset about the disappearance of Grade 3 Azo, and the initial run of Lodima was nearly identical to grade 3 Azo, except the Lodima was more than 1 stop faster.

No, I wouldn't expect someone who wasn't familiar with silver chloride emulsions to make a large purchase, but if you decide to purchase a single box in grade 2 and grade 3, you will be helping the cause. For that we are all appreciative. There are many folks in the contact printing world that are familiar with Azo, I would hope this group would stretch a bit so they would be ordering more than a single box in each grade. For this to come to fruition we will need those folks full participation.

Azo wasn't the only silver chloride emulsion with extended keeping properties, Haloid and Convira are two others I have tried and they held up well for being 50+ years old. I believe the extended shelf life is a characteristic of Silver Chloride emulsions.

I happen to be in a position to do a little more to support this effort and I have chosen to do so. Where as your fears are that the paper may not keep, my fear is that this only happens once and if we don't buy it now we may never have the chance to order it again. Had MAS been able to stockpile a lifetime supply of Azo for himself, this project may never have even been conceived. I don't expect MAS to make the same mistake twice. I expect he will purchase his lifetime supply now. I don't know, but I expect he will. I intend to purchase my lifetime supply now. What if the current manufacturer goes out of business? What if some crucial ingredient to the emulsion is no longer available? What if MAS can't get enough orders for a 2nd run?

With regards to the contrast level of the inital run, I was able to get a print that came very close to Rochester Grade 2. This took a rather severe water bath where I had something like 5 or 7 seconds in the Amidol followed by the waterbath. The details of my experience are posted on the Azo forum. The point is, the paper is very versitile and contrast can be controlled via waterbath if you use Amidol as your developer

Jim,

Yes, I am very much aware of Sandy, but I have never seen a Carbon print. I own Sandy's Carbon/Carbo book. With my limited time to devote to photography these days (2 teenagers) I prefer to use Azo/Lodima to "coating my own." Once I get a little closer to retirement, I intend to learn the carbon process.

Best,

[Jim Fitzgerald]

John, I will say that with my Thomas safe light wide open and seeing the Azo image come up in Amidol is pure heaven. Printing on Lodima will be the same, I'm sure of it. Yes, it does take a lot of time to do the carbon thing, a lot of time, and now that my son's are almost done with college I have more time to devote to my work. Lodima will be in my stockpile.

Jim

[John Bowen]

John, I will say that with my Thomas safe light wide open and seeing the Azo image come up in Amidol is pure heaven. Printing on Lodima will be the same, I'm sure of it.

Jim

I couldn't agree more. The Thomas safe light sure makes life in the darkroom much more pleasant!

[Bruce Barlow]

While Mr. Bowen has accurately described me in private communications as a slacker, given my photography habits of late, I recall in my distant past last fall just how easy contact printing on Azo was. Far less messing around than enlarging, using far less paper to get a superior result. Lodima makes my mouth water.

I have Lodima, and am thrilled that it's closer to grade 3, since that's what I mostly develop for. I will admit that recent slacker-ness has kept me from cracking a box. I am developing October's negatives (some are washing as I type), and will even try Lodima for proofs of 5x7s. This thread is inspirational. thanks, everybody, for getting my darkroom juices flowing.

[John Bowen]

While Mr. Bowen has accurately described me in private communications as a slacker, given my photography habits of late, I recall in my distant past last fall just how easy contact printing on Azo was. Far less messing around than enlarging, using far less paper to get a superior result. Lodima makes my mouth water.

Yes, Peter Schrager, myself and more than a few others have referred to printing with Azo/Amidol as cheating! My experience with Lodima/Amidol has mirrored my experience with Azo....it's still cheating!

[Blacky Dalton]

.......MAS has addressed the keeping properties of Lodima. They have run "advanced aging" tests to determine if the paper would keep over extended periods.........
Best,

John, I understand your concerns, but I would not let the pressure of extinction panic me into parting with a lot of money on a promise. I purchased a small amount of the Chinese Amidol, that was personally endorsed by MAS, and found it to be useless crap for me. I might add that since I did not get in on the initial order, which was another 'give me the money up front' buy, I paid the going price of over $200 per pound. Sure, it will develop paper, and it was cheap for those that bought many pounds in the initial order, but it was totally useless for me.

I certainly applaud MAS for wanting to produce his paper. But in the business world that I am familiar with, as the manufacturer, he is responsible for the funding and production. He should produce the stock, store it, and take orders as they come in. This is how business works. Note how Harmon/Ilford runs their business when it comes to film. You order whatever you need for a year. They deliver and stock whatever amount of film they make in a run. And, if there is ever a problem with their product, they stand behind it and will replace if necessary.

As I said before, I would certainly be interested in a box of Lodima. But, if my experience with the MAS approved Chinese amidol is any indicator, I would be very cautious about putting up a large sum of money.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!!!

[Roger Thoms]

I just completed my order for 5 boxes of 100. Sometimes you have to take a little risk. Not a large sum but all I can do until I'm working again.

Roger

[John Bowen]

Mr. Dalton,

Some of us choose to go through life as optimists and others choose to make the great journey as pessimists. It's probably pretty obvious to anyone reading this thread which of us is the optimist and which the pessimist.

Good day,

[John Bowen]

Ron Mowrey aka Photo Engineer posted the following on Apug:

I think that if one does a careful analysis, one will find two benefits from Azo paper types.

1. Contact printing from LF negs is ever so much better than enlarging anything.
2. Azo type contact papers have a very soft toe and soft shoulder that enhances the shadow and highlight detail. Of course, not all varieties of contact papers, developers and etc... reveal or contain these latter characteristics. This is why we must rely on expert judgment.

PE

[John Bowen]

and David Goldfarb added this comment on Apug:

The way I've described it is--it's not so much that the paper is more beautiful than enlarging papers, but an Azo type paper or the new Lodima paper, which I've tested, makes it possible to use a longer scale neg (about one zone more contrast) with more detail, and to render that detail easily on the print. I have negs that print well on enlarging papers and make similar prints on Azo, but I have negs targeted to Azo that make excellent prints on Azo that couldn't be made easily on enlarging papers.

[Michael A. Smith]

There is a lot to respond to from Blacky Dalton.

Here goes: Keeping properties of Lodima Paper:

I am puzzled why some people post the kind of questions he raises without first asking me, the distributor for the manufacturer.

The manufacturer has tested the paper for keeping properties and has told me that it should keep for 10 years at a minimum. He said it should keep longer, but would not guarantee that. Now what does that guarantee mean? Will I get money back if the paper goes bad in five years or in nine years? No. Some things you have to take on trust.

The paper is a silver chloride paper. All silver chloride papers, because they are slow papers compared to enlarging papers, last a long time. We have printed on silver chloride paper that is now 90 years old. There is some slight fog, but the prints are beautiful. Papers from 70 years ago (a number of brands--not just Azo) also show slight fog, but also give beautiful prints. Paper from 40 years ago is perfect with no fog, but does have a slight lessening of contrast. Slight.

The Lodima paper: Will it last a long time? Probably it will, as it is a silver chloride paper. The paper is warranted against defects the same as Kodak warranted their paper. The last batches of Azo had an expiration date on it of a year after manufacture. That meant nothing except, I imagine, that Kodak would guarantee the paper for that amount of time. That paper is now three to five years out of date. The paper is still perfect.

If you get one box of paper and you like it, what will that tell you about its long-tern keeping properties? Nothing. Unless you don't use the paper for over ten years. You can wait ten years to see how the paper ages before purchasing any more, and I hope in ten years we will still be able to have it made, but can we absolutely count on that? I would sooner count on the paper lasting over ten years.

Now for the Chinese Amidol: First of all, let everyone be clear that the Chinese Amidol was not my deal. I was not buying it, just testing it. Yes, I approved the Amidol. We were sent a test sample of Amidol and it was perfect. We had been warned, however, by the folks at ArtCraft Cemicals that you cannot count on the Chinese to deliver what was tested. We urged, and I have many emails to prove it, the fellow who was doing the deal to go over to China, take some Amidol from the batch to be shipped, take some paper, and print on it in a darkroom. I arranged with photographer friends in China, people we had met and who had visited us at our studio here in Pennsylvania, and who work with large format cameras, to meet the fellow doing the deal at the factory and to go to a darkroom and to test the Amidol to make sure it was the same as the sample. The fellow doing the deal did not do that. He did not go to China and make the test I urged him to make. His actions, or in this case, non-actions, were beyond my control. So, don't pin that one on me, please. I do not operate like that. So I did not "fool you once." A public apology would be appreciated.

Other: A normal business like Ilford makes a product and then people buy it. I sure wish it could be like that for us. But it cannot because Paula and I are photographers who make our entire living from the sale of our photographs as fine art (we lose money on our Lodima Press books because the quality is so high and the books are so expensive to produce) and we simply do not have the money. We live month to month. No health insurance, no savings, no investments. Everything goes into our work and there is nothing left over. I am not complaining here. Just explaining. We cannot do it the normal way. Had we the funds, we would put up the entire purchase price in a heartbeat. In 1994 when we spent $85,000 on the last of the Super XX film, we did it with Visa Cards that took us five years to pay off. We cannot go down that road again, and in any case, the required minimum order for the paper is many, many times the cost of our Super XX, and our credit would not extend nearly far enough. So the only way we can do this is with pre-orders.

If you are nervous about putting up your money, okay. I understand, some people are very cautious. You are obviously one of the cautious ones. Fine. But if you have questions, such as about longevity of paper, and about how "we screwed up the Amidol order", be a mensch, ask me, or confront me directly, rather than posting innuendos in the forums. I do get riled up when my integrity is questioned without someone first confronting me directly.

Michael A. Smith

[Michael A. Smith]

It may not be clear from what I wrote above, but I want to make it clear that Paula and I have already put up a significant amount of money toward the manufacture of Lodima paper.

Michael A. SMith

[chris_4622]

Michael,

A couple of questions come to mind: The Lodima paper is faster than Azo was, does this have an effect on the keeping qualities? When you test for the final run of paper will the speed of the paper be a factor?

chris

[Michael A. Smith]

That is a good question, Chris. Based on: slower speed = longer shelf life, I would say that Lodima paper will not keep as long as Azo. But what does that mean? My guess is all it will mean is that it will lose a little contrast after, say ten years. Nothing serious. I would not expect any mottling or the kinds of gross problems that occur with far-out-of-date enlarging paper.

In any case, we will try to have the paper slowed down without changing its other characteristics.

Michael A. Smith

[Michael A. Smith]

I just received a spectral sensitivity test that Ron Mowrey was kind enough to do for us and the results are that the spectral sensitivity of Lodima Fine Art is virtually identical to the spectral sensitivity of Azo.

P.S. We still need more orders to have the paper made at a reasonable price.

Many thanks.

Michael A. Smith

[Andrew O'Neill]

Hi Michael,

I cannot remember if I got my name in on the the second run of Lodima...Did I? Thanks!

[wfwhitaker]

P.S. We still need more orders to have the paper made at a reasonable price.


How many is "more"?

[Michael Kadillak]

It was my understanding that we are 1/3 of the way there. How many dollars are remaining to be committed to the paper to insure that a major order will be completed I am not sure. Fact is that anyone that understands the quality of this marvelous project and the reality that this project needs up front hard commitments should reach back and do what they can. I personally feel that Lodima is a serious step up from Azo. The fact that it is double weighted is icing on the cake.

Call Michael and help Michael and Paula help us. An opportunity like this only comes around once in a very long time.

Cheers!

[Turner Reich]

Pre run, first run, second run, it's getting hard to tell where in the process the money takng is from the paper making.

Maybe a count down to paper making clock is needed. Or a how much money needed clock.

I will be buying when the venture comes together a little bit more.

Cheers tr

[Jan Pedersen]

TR, The problem is that not enough are willing to comit up front now to make the first large run happen.
There may not be a venture come together if we don't support this, so you could be waiting forever.

[Michael Kadillak]

Pre run, first run, second run, it's getting hard to tell where in the process the money takng is from the paper making.

Maybe a count down to paper making clock is needed. Or a how much money needed clock.

I will be buying when the venture comes together a little bit more.

Cheers tr

I do not know how simple this process could be.

A limited production test run was completed to allow people to have a small quantity of the paper to print with it and see for themselves how it printed.

At about the time that the test run was delivered there was an announcement that there would be a major production run for which sales orders would be accepted. Grade 2 and Grade 3 double weight Lodima pricing was listed for a large number of sizes including rolls and instructions on how payment could be accepted was listed.

There were no missteps anywhere by Michael and Paula as they have been patient, responsive and communicative.

This is not a time to be passive or waiting for something better to come along because quite honestly this is it. Either we collectively make this happen or we watch it go the unfortunate route of POP that is now dead and buried.

I for one have given it my best stuff and will go even further if necessary to make this project reality. We need anyone on the sidelines to call Michael and place your order as soon as possible. Find a way to make it happen and stay positive. Where there is a will I believe that there is always a way.

Cheers!

[Tim Meisburger]

Hi Folks. I shoot 4x5 and enlarge with a cold light graflarger. Can I use this paper with that enlarger (even if it takes a long exposure), or am I limited to 4x5 contacts? If the latter, perhaps I need to buy an 8x10?

[Roger Thoms]

Don't forget 5x7 makes wonderful contact prints.
Roger

[Rick Olson]

Hello Tim ...

I did some small enlargements from some of my contrasty 120 negatives on the initial-run Lodima and they came out beautiful. The times were long, but my enlarger system is in the basement so vibration was not an issue. This is great stuff and I echo Michael's comments on getting on board to support this venture. I also shoot with 5 x 7 and an 8 x 20 cameras so I have ordered paper for these formats. It seems like we're getting to the point of either supporting specialized production runs of products we want to use or loosing them altogether. I commend those like Simon Galley at Ilford for the yearly ULF runs and determined entrepreneurs like Michael and Paula for their efforts. Sitting on the sidelines usually guarantees you a permanent spot on the bench. Not somewhere I want to be!


Rick




Hi Folks. I shoot 4x5 and enlarge with a cold light graflarger. Can I use this paper with that enlarger (even if it takes a long exposure), or am I limited to 4x5 contacts? If the latter, perhaps I need to buy an 8x10?

[John Bowen]

Last call before prices jump on August 7th. Place your orders now!