voigtlander braunschweig techinika-heliar 24cm 4.5 lens

[leicabuff]

I have an opportunity to buy a Voigtlander "Technika" Heliar 24cm f/4.5 lens in a No. 5 universal ilex shutter!. Supposed to be rare. anybody know anything about this lens. What would be a fair price? have been unsuccessful in finding prices.

Thanks

[Jeff Keller]

I vaguely remember seeing about 3 of them for auction all in the $500-$700(?) range. Keep in mind the shutter is no longer a common size. Lens board and retaining ring might add appreciably to the cost if you don't DIY.
Jeff Keller

[CCHarrison]

Not rare, per se, but a nice lens. I would estimate in the $350-$550 range, the shutter is keeping the price from being higher ( a more modern shutter would have a higher value ). Also, if the lens is coated, its worth a bit more.

The "Technika" badge, just means it was hand selected by, or for, Linhof for use on its cameras - usually a sign that the lens had "extra" quality control or extra testing was done to ensure its [good] performance.

here is a 150mm one at ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/LINHOF-VOIGTLANDER-HELIAR-150mm-Portrait-Lens-6x7-4x5_W0QQitemZ250381620981QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_FILM_CAMERAS?hash=item250381620981&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

my Heliar Lens article : http://www.antiquecameras.net/heliarlenses.html


Dan

[Sevo]

$350-550 would only be reasonable for rare, long focal lengths, or a coated one in perfect condition. Uncoated, in common LF lengths from 135-240mm, they usually go for about half the price on ebay Germany, several times per week. Nearly all post WWI Heliar barrel mounts are compatible to standard size shutters, so you can also get barrel mounted ones.

As to that Heliar on the linked auction - beware, cia_love_animal is one of the many aliases of a rather notorious Aussie seller couple, which have a flourishing trade in optically wasted lenses with extensive exterior polishing and very euphemistic descriptions of their state. The "restorations" they perform on lenses are almost as nasty as the language with which they respond to complaints about their scratched and mouldy glass...

Sevo

[CCHarrison]

Good to know Sevo...but I just checked Germany ebay auctions, and while I agree an older uncoated one would be in the $ 150-250 USD range, the Technika branded heliars, that are coated, are higher - more in the $ 350-500 range.... as we both state, the age of the lens, the shutter type, condition, and coating all matter to the final value...

thanks
Dan

PS - the shutter alone ( # 5 Ilex Universal ) is probably worth at least $ 150 in good working order if it has a flange....

[Sevo]

PS - the shutter alone ( # 5 Ilex Universal ) is probably worth at least $ 150 in good working order if it has a flange....

Yep, you'd have to count that in. Provided that it is working - which it often is not on ebay, where most lenses have been shelved for years of even decades, often after the shutter initially became unreliable.

Given CLA prices and the about equal relation of immediately working, cleanable and BER'ed shutters, about 1/3 to 1/4 of the going rate for used working shutters is a reasonable estimate on the shutters that come with ebay lenses.

BTW, a "Technika" Heliar with Ilex #5 will probably be a plain pre-war Heliar in Ilex on a Technika lens board, rather than a (valuable) Linhof assembled and certified unit. Linhof used branded Compur (or occasionally Prontor Press) shutters (plus the inevitable Copals on late to current ones).

Sevo

[Ole Tjugen]

... BTW, a "Technika" Heliar with Ilex #5 will probably be a plain pre-war Heliar in Ilex on a Technika lens board, rather than a (valuable) Linhof assembled and certified unit. ...

It could also be a Technika Heliar remounted in an Ilex shutter, in which case there is no guarantee for perfect cell spacing and centering.

A 240mm f:4.5 Technika Heliar should be originally mounted in a #4 Compound.

In this case it's clearly said in the thread title that it's marked "24cm". That makes it pre-WWII - and pre-Technika too!

[Henry Suryo]

I believe there was an identical, if not the same, lens on eBay a couple months ago. If I remember correctly, it was a Linhof select, late model Heliar in a late model Ilex 5 Universal shutter and sold for $650.

This lens in question could very well be factory issued. I once had (still kicking myself for selling it) a Linhof select, very late model Apo Lanthar 30cm F4.5 lens factory-mounted in a late model Ilex 5 Universal shutter (see attached). So, I don't believe the cm vs mm markings could be used to identify positively the vintage. The Ilex 5 shutter was never listed in the catalogs as an option, I believe, and maybe was only used on a very small batch of select lenses during the last years of production.

[leicabuff]

I have an opportunity to buy a Voigtlander "Technika" Heliar 24cm f/4.5 lens in a No. 5 universal ilex shutter!. Supposed to be rare. anybody know anything about this lens. What would be a fair price? have been unsuccessful in finding prices.

Thanks

[leicabuff]

this is a photo of the lens in question, stated in the ilex shutter "Heliar 24cm" factory issue?

[Henry Suryo]

It looks like factory original to me. The late model Ilex 5 and the marking on the shutter itself are consistent with my (ex) Apo Lanthar. While a 24cm Heliar is not what I would consider rare, this late configuration does make it more uncommon and perhaps more desirable, because of the Linhof selection and being a late model coated version. With regards to the shutter, I have a 21cm Heliar and it just barely fits into a Copal 3, so I don't believe a 24cm Heliar will fit into any modern shutters. Yours being a late model Ilex 5 is probably the most recent as they come and it's a decent shutter that can still be serviced reliably if needed. If the asking price is right to you, I'd recommend the lens, I'm very pleased with the Heliar look, specially for selective focusing, where the sharp and the soft effect is very pronounced. I don't know what format you will be using the lens for, but a 24cm is a 5x7 lens at most. Though some have claimed 8x10 coverage, perhaps at close up distances, I would not recommend it for the 8x10 format.

[Sevo]

So, I don't believe the cm vs mm markings could be used to identify positively the vintage.

It might even be that Voigtländer never made that step on large format Heliars, my 57 and 62 dated Heliars aren't mm marked either. Voigtländer may have intentionally avoided anything that might have been considered "modern" due to pecularities on their professional home market - they certainly were unusually verbose in marketing towards guild-organized photographers only.

As to the background: The Nazis had closed most photo schools and reorganized all trades (including photography) by the guild principle. Post war, the former were revived, but the guilds weren't abolished and retained some privileges, which created a separation between photographers with different training. Up into the seventies there were extremely strained relations between guild trained and academic photographers in Germany. Only the former could legally offer services to individuals, but that forced the latter into corporate, advertising, press and fine art photography, where they eventually took over and developed into being much better paid and more public. By the late fifties, the strife had manifested itself to the degree that manufacturers which marketed products to studied as well as trained photographers were subject to boycots by the guild. The bigger and more traditional German manufacturers which had major stakes in consumer products were forced to stick to the guild, as their members at that time controlled the vast majority of camera shops (the related boycot of the exceptions from that rule effectively initiated high-end Japanese consumer gear on the German market). Relatively upstart companies which could determine their strategy based solitarily upon the professional market, like sinar, Linhof and Schneider focused on the mostly academic ad and architectural photographers when wedding and portrait had become too unprofitable a segment to give the guild leverage, and eventually took over the pro market (one of the reasons why Zeiss, Voigtländer, Steinheil etc. LF lenses started to become scarce in the sixties and eventually were dropped).


The Ilex 5 shutter was never listed in the catalogs as an option, I believe, and maybe was only used on a very small batch of select lenses during the last years of production.

It might be that Compounds weren't available in that size at that moment - their supply was flaky and they were officially cancelled quite a few times. Deckel merely carried them on in occasional batches of select sizes long past the end of their life cycle as creating tools for the missing larger larger Synchro Compur sizes would not have paid off after wasp-tailled lenses had become dominant, so that these sizes were only rarely requested for replacements and a few outdated lens designs.

Besides, for the above reasons, Linhof packeting a Heliar must have been a rather rare incident (a camera under boycot by the group entitled to purchase the lens), so they may have resorted to odd shutters off the market because such a unique combination did not warrant ordering batches.

Sevo

[CCHarrison]

Agreed, appears to be a later model.. I'll stick with the high end of my range, $450-$ 550....

Dan

[Ole Tjugen]

It might even be that Voigtländer never made that step on large format Heliars, my 57 and 62 dated Heliars aren't mm marked either.

<snip>

Besides, for the above reasons, Linhof packeting a Heliar must have been a rather rare incident (a camera under boycot by the group entitled to purchase the lens), so they may have resorted to odd shutters off the market because such a unique combination did not warrant ordering batches.

Sevo

That makes sense.

No wait - it doesn't make sense at all, but it is very very consistent. So I think it is correct. :)

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Hi there,

I have a late model, coated, Universal Heliar #5,657,xxx marked as 30cm, I guess Voigtlander never changed to mm on their large lenses.

Who imported Voightlander and Linhof into the US, Burleigh/Brooks? That could explain the Ilex shutters.

[Sevo]

Who imported Voightlander and Linhof into the US, Burleigh/Brooks? That could explain the Ilex shutters.

In general, Linhof created no variations for local markets. But in that special case, it is likely that Technika Heliars were considered export only, or were off-catalogue and made on special order. Neither Heliars nor Ilex shutters are listed in my 60's Linhof German catalogues - there certainly was something special going on with them.

Sevo

[Henry Suryo]

I suppose this (http://cgi.ebay.com/LINHOF-Voigtlander-APO-LANTHAR-300mm-4x5-5x7-8x10-lens_W0QQitemZ250385828372QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Vintage_Cameras?hash=item250385828372&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A10%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318) is my chance to redeem and stop kicking myself for selling that 30cm Apo Lanthar. Then again, thanks for the word of warning...




As to that Heliar on the linked auction - beware, cia_love_animal is one of the many aliases of a rather notorious Aussie seller couple, which have a flourishing trade in optically wasted lenses with extensive exterior polishing and very euphemistic descriptions of their state. The "restorations" they perform on lenses are almost as nasty as the language with which they respond to complaints about their scratched and mouldy glass...

Sevo

Looks awfully pristine, though. It'd be a shame if it was "restored".

[Peter K]

Neither Heliars nor Ilex shutters are listed in my 60's Linhof German catalogues - there certainly was something special going on with them.
In the Linhof catalogue No 45 from 1968 many Voigtländer lenses are listed like the Apo-Lanthar 1:4.5/100mm up to 1:4,5/300mm, the Heliar 1:4.5/240mm and 1:4.5/300mm either in Compur-electronic 5 FS or in Compound EX-IV/10. Also the Universal-Heliar 300mm and 360mm without shutter and the Apo-Skopar 1:9/450mm, also mounted in Compound and Compur 5 FS.

[Bob Salomon]

Hi there,

I have a late model, coated, Universal Heliar #5,657,xxx marked as 30cm, I guess Voigtlander never changed to mm on their large lenses.

Who imported Voightlander and Linhof into the US, Burleigh/Brooks? That could explain the Ilex shutters.

Berkey Photo Marketing did Linhof in the 60s into the 70's when we took over Linhof. IMC imported Voigtlander until Zeiss Ikon Voigtlander USA took over. We took over ZIV after ZIV withdrew from the photo world in the 70s.

[Ernest Purdum]

I also think this must be a factory product, not a remount. Remounting a lens in barrel, or one which had originally been in a Compound shutter, would have been too much costly work to have been practical.

I also had an Apo Lanthar in Ilex. I bought it as a close-out and it was a great lens for the product photography I was involved with at the time.

[Bob Salomon]

Linhof sold the following Voigtlander lenses for their cameras:
Technika Heliar in 150, 250, 240 and 300mm; Technika Apo Lanthar in 100, 150, 210 and 300mm. They also, of course, sold Zeiss (Voigtlander was part of the Zeiss group) as well as Rodenstock and Schneider lenses and some Nikon tele lenses. They also sold some lenses under their own name on a private label basis such as the 270mm Portrait or the Technikon name.

[Philippe Grunchec]

Bob, I just acquired a Linhof selected Heliar 4.5/210, in a Compound 3 (ca. 1965).

[eduardtoader]

Hello all.

Last year I purchased a Heliar 24cm in Compound. The shutter had some speed issues and when the mechanic fixed it, he told me the front element of the lens have some separation. Not so big problem but it´s a issue. I don´t like to have problem on my equipment so I keept the lens but I did´nt use it anymore. If I would have saw it when I bought it, I would have returned it but I did´nt knew so much about lenses - to look for any lens separation.

Anyway, I have the lens for several months and now I meet on ebay a 24cm front element for (it seems) my lens. I ask to seller about it, If it could be unscrewed from the black piece, etc. He don´t know so much about this lens - he only tell me that the lens is for analogic - not digital :rolleyes:

Anyone of you could tell me if the little lens fit on my 7503475035compound shutter, beeing the same as the original front element? Is the little lens another item than what I suppose it is?


Thanks to all for your replies.

[JBAphoto]

I have not read all the posts, but my experience is that both my 1924 un-coated 36cm Heliar and my "new" 1960s 24cm Technika Heliar are very smooth lenses - The un-coatedness of the older one does not seem to be degrading the image to any noticeable extent - However, they are both in VGC and only used for naked portraits and nudes with 10x8" and 5x4" film so my real experience is limited to this area, but I really enjoy their image qualities - Like all older lenses their qualities have to be "learned", not in terms of absolute quality, but knowing how to best use their personal traits

In terms of landscape work, I simply have not tried them, using Symars from 135mm to 300mm in the field - In my work I have too much to contend with without playing at lenses - Light, image structure and printing take up all my energy

[eduardtoader]

Anyone of you could tell me if the little lens fit on my 7503475035compound shutter, beeing the same as the original front element? Is the little lens another item than what I suppose it is?


Thanks to all for your replies.