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Pfeiffer Duckett
24-Feb-2009, 00:04
Hello all-

I want some opinions on some films to try with pyrocat-hd. I've been using delta 100 for 4x5 with great results souped in d-76 and rodinal, but having moved up to 8x10 I find the depth of field is too short for the f stops I tend to shoot to have such a slow film. (mostly indoor portraits). I prefer the modern grained films but swore off t-max years ago, I really hate it. The negatives I'm looking for would contact print well on lodima in amidol, and I develop my film in a jobo 3005.

So! I want a modern b&w film that is fast but not t-max. In a perfect world. And since Ilford refuses to make delta-400 in 8x10, could I push acros or delta 100 to asa 400 and get good results in pyrocat? Or am I stuck with old style film or t-max?

Thanks in advance for helping with my foolishness.

Gene McCluney
24-Feb-2009, 00:38
Both Kodak Tri-x and Ilford HP5+ are standard stock items in 8x10, both traditonal "older" style films and both ISO 400. Why wouldn't you like these?

Michael Graves
24-Feb-2009, 04:28
Efke 100 in Pyrocat yields incredible tonality and great sharpness. Its one caveat is that you need to treat it with care. While wet, the emulsion is quite soft and easy to scratch. This shot is an example.

Mark Sampson
24-Feb-2009, 06:08
1) No, you won't like the results you'll get if you push any 100-speed film to 400, unless you want inky-black shadows and gritty skin tones.
2) there's nothing wrong with 'old-style' film, especially in 8x10. If you're contact printing you'll never see any grain. Many 8x10 shooters use Tri-X or HP5+ (for example) and don't feel 'stuck'.

Gem Singer
24-Feb-2009, 07:29
Ilford HP-5+ developed in Pyrocat-HD is an outstanding combination. Good choice for contact printing.

Pyrocat-HD is a staining developer. It results in a slight "tobacco" tone to the negative,

I have been using it for a few years. Excellent acutance, contrast, and tonality. I found that Ilford DD-X developer had a tendency to blow out the highlights with HP-5+. Pyrocat-HD retained the details in the highlights. Probably due to it's staining ability.

mcfactor
24-Feb-2009, 07:38
I use beutlers high acutance developer with HP5 in 4x5 sheets and love it. The negatives are incredibly sharp and since you will be contact printing, the grain will not be a problem. It also pushes very well to 800. If you use pyrocat-hd, there will be a lose in film speed of at least a stop.

Gem Singer
24-Feb-2009, 08:13
mcfactor,

Where did you get the idea that Pyrocat-HD will loose one stop of film speed?

Please refer me to scientific tests that prove that statement.

That's just the opposite of what i have found with Pyrocat-HD. It maintains film speed and seems to slightly increase it with HP-5+.

Ken Lee
24-Feb-2009, 08:32
Here (http://www.kenleegallery.com/html/tech/still.html)is a shot made on 8x10 Ilford HP5+, exposed at ISO 200 and developed in Pyrocat HD. It seems to work nicely, although I prefer to shoot Kodak TMY when available.

You will probably enjoy reading Sandy King's article (http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html) on Pyrocat HD. He shares helpful sensitometric data about a variety of films.

Andrew O'Neill
24-Feb-2009, 09:15
HP5+ and Pyrocat-HD at EI 250 (normal contrast) works very well. When you say you don't like Tmax, does that also include TMY? I never cared for Tmax 100, but really like TMY. I've never tried the newer stuff, but the older stuff is really nice in Pyrocat. I just developed a couple of old TMY that had expired in 2000. Really nice (not the image!).

Bruce Watson
24-Feb-2009, 09:22
... swore off t-max years ago, I really hate it.

A lot of people did. Then Kodak rebuilt TMY into TMY-2 and released it in early 2008. This new version, TMY-2, has won over a lot of people. And it's one of Sandy King's favorite films for use in Pyrocat-HD IIRC.

I'm just sayin' you might want to reconsider your hate. Because if you need a 400 speed film, TMY-2 is your only choice in modern emulsions in LF sizes. Your other choices are Tri-X and HP-5+ IIRC. Both of which will work fine in Pyrocat-HD. But both are long toe traditional films too.

mcfactor
24-Feb-2009, 11:44
I have noticed from my own testing that an EI of 200 works best for hp5 in pyrocat-hd, leading my to believe that there is a loss of speed with pyrocat-hd. If you look at the above posts you will see that most people rate it around 200-250, confirming what I have found myself.

On the other hand, the beutler developers (fx-1 and Beutlers high actuance) give me full speed.

I supposed I should have qualified it by saying that "i have found...", but since it seems that many others have found the same, i thought i was safe in making a general statement about it.

Gem Singer
24-Feb-2009, 11:58
That type of testing is for your camera, exposure meter, and developing procedure.

The tests I have performed using my equipment and procedures, shows that Pyrocat-HD actually increases the ISO speed of my HP-5+ film by about 1/3 of a stop. I shoot it at an EI of 400 and get the results I am seeking.

I scan and print my 8X10 negatives digitally.

Perhaps Sandy King can chime in here.

Ken Lee
24-Feb-2009, 14:00
Film speed continues to be a subject of much discussion. The issue may never be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.

It is not uncommon for users of Zone System methods (as outlined by Ansel Adams (http://www.amazon.com/Negative-Ansel-Adams-Photography-Book/dp/0821221868/ref=pd_sim_b_3), Fred Picker (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0817405747/qid=1075561755/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-7002570-7186453?v=glance&s=books), and others) to arrive at film speeds which are roughly 1/2 the officially stated value. At the same time, some arrive at higher speeds. As they say... go figure.

I shoot TMY at ~200, TMX and FP4+ at ~50, etc - even though I use Pyrocat HD. I like the results I get.

In the final analysis, everyone has their own lenses, shutters, exposure meter, water, thermometer, film, chemistry, agitation technique, enlarger, scanner, computer, monitor, printer, paper, eyesight...

Vive la difference !

Pfeiffer Duckett
24-Feb-2009, 16:28
Ok, Im going to put aside my predjudices and try tmy. I like the modern films for the way they render tone, but the old tmy never did it for me. I'll buy a box of ten this week. What are the practical differances between the old and the new? Is contrast handled similarly? Anyway, Ill grab starting development times off of 'unblinking eye' and cross my fingers the lodima production run comes in soooon!

Thanks for the help!

sanking
24-Feb-2009, 18:39
For the record I absolutely don't agree with the statement that use of Pyrocat-HD results in film speed loss of one stop. I have probably done about a thousand times more testing of this developer with sensitometry than anyone else and if the standard is D76, which most people accept, Pyrocat-HD gives full film speed, in fact even a bit more.

Some developers, Xtol among them, do give a slight increase in film speed compared to the standard D76, but only about 1/4 to 1/2 stop.

Most LF photographers tend to rate film at about 1/2 the stated ASA provided by the film maker. This is done in order to assure good shadow detail. It is not necessary with films that have very linear curves, TMY for example, but it is necessary with films like TRI-X that have very long toes. One doubles the exposure in order to push important shadow detail into the straight line part of the curve.

TMY is my favorite film for LF and ULF, though I like a number of others as well, especially Efke PL100 and Ilford FP4+.

I also like Tmax-100 a lot but don't use it in LF or ULF because it has a UV coating that results in printing speed loss of up to three or four stops with UV sensitive processes.

Sandy King

phaedrus
24-Feb-2009, 19:30
Don't forget Fujifilm Acros. Because reciprocity failure only comes into play with exposure times above 2 minutes, it is a faster film at typical large format exposure times than many 400 ISO films.

Joe Forks
24-Feb-2009, 20:32
Anyone tried any Efke IR 810 in pyrocat hd? I have a couple of exposed sheets but haven't developed them yet.

Andrew O'Neill
24-Feb-2009, 22:51
The tests I have performed using my equipment and procedures, shows that Pyrocat-HD actually increases the ISO speed of my HP-5+ film by about 1/3 of a stop. I shoot it at an EI of 400 and get the results I am seeking.

...and that is why photography is personal and thank God that it is, otherwise I would have stuck with drawing, painting and printmaking!

Andrew O'Neill
24-Feb-2009, 22:55
Anyone tried any Efke IR 810 in pyrocat hd? I have a couple of exposed sheets but haven't developed them yet.

Yup. I have. I've also tried their 4x5 IR in pyrocat. The time was around 16:00. Anyway, I didn't care for it. I found the contrast to be extremely flat. Try one sheet in it and see. Maybe you'll like it.
Now whenever I use Efke IR, it's always in Xtol 1+1 or straight.

Joe Forks
25-Feb-2009, 07:48
Yup. I have. I've also tried their 4x5 IR in pyrocat. The time was around 16:00. Anyway, I didn't care for it. I found the contrast to be extremely flat. Try one sheet in it and see. Maybe you'll like it.
Now whenever I use Efke IR, it's always in Xtol 1+1 or straight.

Thanks Andrew. I have one holder where the corner of the darkslide cracked and broke off when pulling it and so that sheet will be a great candidate for testing.

After that there's enough darkslide left to make 4x10 splitter slide.

Two good things to make the best of an otherwise wasted sheet of film.

Best
Joe

Pfeiffer Duckett
26-Feb-2009, 23:23
Hi!

This question is directed towards Mr. King, I have my box of tmy, and I used the chart you have published on unblinkingeye, but I was wondering if that starting development is for the old or new version? And, should I rate it at 400 or 320? Any suggestions on n-1 or n+1? I putzed around the 'net but couldn't find anything... If it's up somewhere a link would be great.

Thanks for all the help so far!