Epson R2880 versus 3800

[Scott Kathe]

I posted a question earlier today over in the On Photography section entitled "What is a photographer?" http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?p=440257#post440257 I'm 99% sure I'm ready to take the leap and get a decent printer that will allow me to do color and black and white prints but I'd appreciate any new input. I have been doing a lot of research on these two printers and read quite a bit here and elsewhere but I'm wondering if anyone has anything else they would like to say.

This is in response to a point that Brian Ellis raised:
"Archival" is one of those buzzwords that can get one into a lot of trouble. I'm definitely interested in pigment based prints not dye based prints due to their stability even if they don't have the 'punch' that a dye based print can have. The other thing that is really important to me is the ability to do black and white without a color cast.

If I stick with an Epson printer this narrows it down to three printers for me to think about. The R2400 and R2880 are less expensive than the 3800 but there are two issues with those printers: First is the necessity to switch out the black inks depending on the paper type, matt vs glossy; Second is the size of the ink cartridges and associated costs. Since the R2880 is the same price as the R2400-that seems like a no brainer-get the R2880. As far as the 3800 goes by the time I buy a total of 80mls of each ink for the R2880 I could have bought the 3800 with ink. I don't plan on printing a lot but it sure would be nice not to worry about buying ink all the time to feed the R2880, but then again ~$50 a pop for a 3800 cartridge is nothing to take lightly. The larger maximum print size of the 3800 is nice as well. The question is this: is the newer technology in the R2880, lower start up cost and smaller print size worth it compared to the economy and larger print size capabilities of the 3800?


Scott

[aphexafx]

I think you've effectively answered your own question! The answer depends completely on the individual. Everyone here who owns an Epson printer has gone through this or some version of it, so expect plenty of opinions.

The 2880 has the newer pigments with a wider gamut, but costs more to operate per square-foot in the end.

Both the 2880 and the 3800 will provide you with high quality exhibition / fine-art level printing and maximum longevity (depending on your paper/media).

I for one went with the 2880 because I do mostly 12xX prints, it works as a fantastic proofing device for larger off-site Epson prints, and the slightly higher cost of the ink is not an issue for me as I do not do large runs, etc. And it fits rather nicely in my smallish studio. Also, I will find it easier to part with when the next generation 13" Epson appears, if ever, and so on.

If you are very interested in BW output you may be interested in the 2880's advancements in anti-metameric failure. The K3/VM printers do absolutely gorgeous BW out of the box, probably the best until you head into custom pigment set territory.

If you expect to do larger prints than the 2880 can handle often, then the width of the 3800 instantly outweighs any benefits of the K3/VM pigments. If you plan on producing a large number of prints, then the pigment cost savings and industrial build quality of the 3800 will probably be the winner.

Btw, the 3800 may mount both K inks, but it still has to purge the K line and the K head in order to switch, and this is more of a commitment than with the 2880 due to the larger size of the printer. Although the 2880 does not selectively purge, it takes ink from each cartridge even though you are only interested in purging the K channel. I do not know whether the 3800 can selectively purge the K channel.

The K channel purge issue does not affect me because I only do matte output on fine-art papers, on the rare occasion that I want a glossy, I go outside and get a LightJet, etc. My 2880 has never even seen a PK cartridge.

Lots of variable, for sure. Good luck!

[Scott Kathe]

Although the 2880 does not selectively purge, it takes ink from each cartridge even though you are only interested in purging the K channel. I do not know whether the 3800 can selectively purge the K channel.

Thanks Matt,

I am under the impression that the 3800 only purges the K channel but I could be wrong. Anybody out there know for sure?

I probably won't make a ton of prints either so I definitely understand your choice of the smaller printer, in fact earlier this week I was leaning toward the R2880. But I think the K cartridge switchover ink loss is important to me.

Scott

[venchka]

Did you even pay a passing glance at HP or Canon printers? I ask because I'm probably going to buy a printer in 2009 and I would be curious to know how Canon and HP measure up against Epson.

[Ron Marshall]

The 3800 comes with $450 in ink. All cartridges were still over 80% full after charging the printhead.

If you can afford the extra for the 3800, considering the free ink it really is not much more than the 2880 and in the long run the ink costs will be much less if you do significant print volume.

[BarryS]

The 3800 only wastes a few mls of ink when switching blacks, so that shouldn't be a factor. If you have any interest in selling your work, larger prints sell *much* better--my 3800 has easily paid for itself in print sales. The gamut increase with the X880 series is minor by most accounts. I pulled up a few profiles for the new inkset and compared them with my profiles and the difference seemed minor. The 3800 is also fairly compact for a 17" carriage printer. There's also the pleasure of making large prints for yourself. Once you pull a few 16x20 prints, your doubts will evaporate.

[venchka]

...The K channel purge issue does not affect me because I only do matte output on fine-art papers, on the rare occasion that I want a glossy, I go outside and get a LightJet, etc. My 2880 has never even seen a PK cartridge.

Lots of variable, for sure. Good luck!

Matt,

Can you decode this for the non-Epson photo/matte black users? Or those of us who may buy a new Epson printer someday.

Thanks!

[Charles Carstensen]

The Epson Store on line has a 3800 refurbished for 895.00.

[Ron Marshall]

Matt,

Can you decode this for the non-Epson photo/matte black users? Or those of us who may buy a new Epson printer someday.

Thanks!

He never has to waste ink switching from matt black to photo black since he only prints on matt papers and thus only uses the matt black ink.

[Scott Kathe]

Matt,

Can you decode this for the non-Epson photo/matte black users? Or those of us who may buy a new Epson printer someday.

Thanks!

Wayne,

I'll give it a shot. CMYK printers-use cyan, magenta, yellow and black inks. There are three black (K) cartridges used in the K3 printer at one time, black, light black and light light black. There are two types of black cartridges, one for glossy paper called photo black and one for matt papers called matte black. With the R2400 and R2880 the operator has to manually switch the black cartridges if changing paper types and when you change a cartridge the printer pushes ink through all the lines to charge up the cartridge you just installed and this wastes ink. The 3800 holds both photo and matte cartridges at the same time in different slots and when you change paper types it only pushes the ink through the black line. So with the 3800 you don't need to physically swap the cartridges and there is less ink lost when you do.

Hope I got that right:)

Scott

[Scott Kathe]

The Epson Store on line has a 3800 refurbished for 895.00.

That's what I have my eye on;)

Scott

[venchka]

Thanks. I'm inclined to use matt paper.

[aphexafx]

venchka, both answers above are on the dot. Basically I was just saying that the black ink switching annoyance doesn't affect me because I do not switch black inks.

I did evaluate, to a degree, both HP and Canon as well as Epson while looking for a printer. I ended up aligning with Epson very quickly. Their system, even with its quirks, is fantastic in my opinion. I came to the conclusion that Epson has the ball for cutting edge fine-art pigment printing. The UltraChrome pigments are fantastic, as is the print technology. It is also what my school uses.

Of course, opinions will differ.

[BarryS]

I wouldn't touch a refurbished 3800. You might get a lightly used printer or you might get a beat-to-hell production printer with a history of problems. People have gotten burned on the refurbs and the new printers are available for only $150 more.

[Scott Kathe]

I wouldn't touch a refurbished 3800. You might get a lightly used printer or you might get a beat-to-hell production printer with a history of problems. People have gotten burned on the refurbs and the new printers are available for only $150 more.

Barry,

I've had absolutely no problems with the refurbed letter sized printers I've gotten from Epson but that was only a $50-60 gamble. This is a lot bigger investment and I'll have to give it some real thought. I know that a new one is only a couple hundred more but that gets the cost up over $1K which I find VERY hard to take. But I wouldn't be happy either if I spent $900 and got a dud! I really don't think that Epson's refurbs have had a lot of use but that's just my small sample size.

Scott

[sanking]

I have purchased a refurbished scanner and a refurbished 3800 printer from Epson and both were in LN condition on arrival and have performed without flaw. I have also purchased refurbished computers from Apple, including a 24" iMAC and a MacBook. Both arrived like new and have not given me any trouble. All of this equipment came with the same guarantee that Apple and Epson give with their new equipment. Based on my own experience I don't believe there is any greater risk buying a refurbished 3800 than a new one.

A much greater risk would be to buy a used 3800 out of warranty, even if the price was very attractive.

BTW, I have had to return two photo printers, purchased new, for exchange within the warranty period, an Epson and an HP.

Sandy King

[BarryS]

Barry,

I've had absolutely no problems with the refurbed letter sized printers I've gotten from Epson but that was only a $50-60 gamble. This is a lot bigger investment and I'll have to give it some real thought. I know that a new one is only a couple hundred more but that gets the cost up over $1K which I find VERY hard to take. But I wouldn't be happy either if I spent $900 and got a dud! I really don't think that Epson's refurbs have had a lot of use but that's just my small sample size.

Scott

Scott-- Small format refurbs are probably a better bet because it's unlikely they've ever been used as production printers. I've read multiple reports of 3800 refurbs with issues. Do I think it's the majority of refurbs? No, but if you get a dog--you won't be happy. For me, it comes down to the small price differential. Unfortunately, Epson had a $200 rebate on the 3800 that just expired. You may want to wait a bit to see if they announce a new round of rebates. However, if the cost is a stretch--I'd still take a 3800 refurb over a 2880 any day. Good luck!

[mandoman7]

First, I would reiterate what was posted earlier by Ron. The 3800 comes with $450 in ink. The smaller version comes with less than $100 worth of ink. So any comparison would need to subtract $350 from the larger printer's price to be fair.

I used a 2400 for a lot of work and the frequency of cartridge changing started to drive me crazy. At times it seems like you're changing carts with every other print. Time consuming, not to mention more costly. For my use, I estimated the ink consumption to run about $0.80 per 8x10 as versus $0.50 for the 3800 (very rough calculation).

I also got this refurb 3800 from Epson and did a ton of printing with it last fall with no problems. I would guess that the majority of those come from people who returned a printer that was plagued by operator error. Most lay people I know who have these printers don't have a clue as to how they work, nor the patience to deal with much trial and error. Sometimes it takes having an impending order to really get your act together...

Also, with the forum activity such as this one, it wouldn't make sense for Epson to pass on intensely used or abused printers (with a warranty). When they have barely used ones coming in that are easily checked and serviced, why would they bother with a beat up printer? One bad experience and they'll get googled all over the planet as passing bad equipment. Of course, corporations don't always think things out too well, but there are elements of predictability.

John Y.

[Charles Carstensen]

John Y. You have stated it very very well. I agree, there is nothing wrong with refurb from Epson. I would add that there is a rumor going around that the 3800 will be discontinued sometime soon. Not that it matters - it will be years before obsolescence point.

[Scott Kathe]

I have also purchased refurbished computers from Apple, including a 24" iMAC...
Sandy King

Me too, I have had very good luck with refurbs from Apple and Epson and saved a lot of money in the process. I've done a little more info gathering with respect to people who have had problems with refurbed Epson 3800s. From what I have read, the users who have had trouble have always ended up with a decent printer. I think the worst case was someone who went through 4 refurbs before they got a good one. I wouldn't want to deal with that but I'm feeling lucky ;)

I am concerned about having it shipped this time of year since I live in Vermont and it gets darn cold here but the literature I'm looking at says that the printer is good from -4 to 104 Fahrenheit in storage. I'll check with Epson on that and see if I can get any additional discount on a new 3880 since I've bought several printers and my 4990 scanner directly from them and I have have friends buy their stuff based on my satisfaction.

Scott

[BarryS]

Good news for you. Epson just announced an extension of the $200 rebate on the 3800. This brings the price of a new unit down to about the same as the refurb. I don't see any reason to chance a refurb as long as the rebate is in effect.

[Scott Kathe]

I've seen that in a couple of places other than the Epson Website? I can get the 3800 for less from B&H and even less from a place called Atlex.com. I'm going to give Epson a call soon to confirm that the $200 rebate has been extended till March 31st and to see if they can match the places I just mentioned. Has anyone purchased a printer from Atlex?

Scott

[Scott Kathe]

I just talked with a sales person at Epson and they said that the rebate on the 3800 ended on January 31st and has not been extended. I find that a bit confusing. I contacted Atlex with respect to the rebate and am waiting to hear back from them.

Scott

[BarryS]

Odd, I got the info in an email from this company (http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-bin/itsupplies.storefront/EN/Product/C635011UCM). You could call them or wait a few days. Until they release the rebate details and coupon, it's not official, so I'm guessing the sales person didn't find it in the database.

[Scott Kathe]

Odd, I got the info in an email from this company (http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-bin/itsupplies.storefront/EN/Product/C635011UCM). You could call them or wait a few days. Until they release the rebate details and coupon, it's not official, so I'm guessing the sales person didn't find it in the database.

I saw that one too. Have you had any experience with that company? I'm going to sit tight for a while and keep checking the Epson web site to see what shows up.

Scott

[BarryS]

My mind is going, but I bought my 3800 at either Atlex or IT Supplies and I've bought paper from both. They're both good companies that specialize in serving the large format printing community. If IT Supplies posts that the rebate is coming, they probably have the inside line from the 3800 product manager or a rep they can trust.

[Scott Kathe]

My mind is going, but I bought my 3800 at either Atlex or IT Supplies and I've bought paper from both. They're both good companies that specialize in serving the large format printing community. If IT Supplies posts that the rebate is coming, they probably have the inside line from the 3800 product manager or a rep they can trust.

Good to hear they are both reputable companies. Since they both say the rebate is coming, I'm with you-they have the inside scoop from someone and it should show up on Epson's site soon.

Scott

[BarryS]

IT Supplies is now selling 3800 refurbs for $750 shipped. The rebate on new 3800's is $300 if you buy $100 of Epson paper. So it's equivalent to getting $200 back and $100 of free paper.

[Tzabcan]

...or wait a few months for the 3900...

[venchka]

Check my math.

According to Epson, a black ink swap round trip in a 3800 printer uses 6ml of ink.
80ml ink = $60.
6/80 = 0.075
0.075 x $60 = $4.50

Has anyone done the same for the R2880? Looks like picking one type of black ink and paper for the 3800 printer is a wise thing to do.

I still have to wonder if Canon or HP may not have a better solution. I'm reminded of Shimano's domination of the bike parts business. They are the biggest. They aren't always the best.

[Brian Ellis]

I'll mention two things that have been touched on here about the 3800 that are irritating though I still am very happy with mine:

With respect to not having to worry about the switch from photo black to matte black - sometimes the printer will make this switch without any forewarning and without any desire on your part to make the switch. This happens when you aren't careful about which paper type is being displayed. This problem has been discussed in detail in another recent thread so I won't repeat it all here, just be forewarned that unless you NEVER switch paper types, you need to always check which type paper the printer is displaying before you hit the "print" button. At least that's what I now do, having been stuck with unwanted ink type switches three or four times.

With respect to refurbs - if you buy a new 3800 and you encounter a problem that requires you to return it and get a replacement, the replacement will be a refurb. You'll get a full set of inks with the refurb just like you got with your new printer but you're still getting a refurb, not the new printer you originally bought. I learned this when my first 3800 developed a feed problem a few weeks after I bought it and I had to get a replacement. I will say that the replacement has been fine, no problems at all, but it bothered me that I paid for a new printer, the new one had a problem not my fault, and I ended up with a refurb.

[BarryS]

The cost of switching inks isn't a big deal. If you don't overpay for ink carts, a round trip costs about $3.50. I usually wait until I have a print run to switch in either direction. My perspective may be a little different because I sell 50-75% of what I print, but I don't think it's a big deal when the cost is spread over your print runs.

[sgelb]

i would wait for the 3900 or unitl its out to buy a deep discounted 3800. I was weighing in selling my R2880 and I ended up not doing so.

the main reason is the vivid and light vivid magenta. the 3800 does not have this feature. the 4880 however does.

[aphexafx]

I will say that the replacement has been fine, no problems at all, but it bothered me that I paid for a new printer, the new one had a problem not my fault, and I ended up with a refurb.

That is unacceptable, and you should (have?) taken this up with Epson. That cannot be a standard business practice for them. I'm really irritated to hear about that! :mad:

[aphexafx]

They aren't always the best.

Epson is not the biggest. But I believe they lead the pack in terms of quality and technology development, quirks aside. My opinion, but I'm sure I'm not alone.

[venchka]

Epson is not the biggest. But I believe they lead the pack in terms of quality and technology development, quirks aside. My opinion, but I'm sure I'm not alone.

Surely Epson outsells everyone else in the large photo inkjet printer field.

OK, my ancient Epson 1280 bit the dust. Correction: It was printing crap photos but it was printing. Then I decided to fix it. Now it's broke.

Being the obsessive/compulsive person that I am, I did a bit of analizing and comparisizing.

I have a letter size HP photo printer. It's working fine for my needs up to letter size paper. It won't accept Moab Entrada Natural Rag 300, but I'll get over that.

Reading this and other threads, and doing a bit of poking about on the interent, it appears that all 3 photo printer companies reserve all the goodies for the big bucks high dollar 17" and up printers. The Epson 3800 is the leader of the pack. Canon and HP have loyal followers. All of the entry level 17" printers are on the wrong side of $1,000.

Then the lightbulb went on:

For the very infrequent prints larger than 8x10 I can send them out.

I can make 11x14 B&W prints in the darkroom.

$1,000-$1,500 buys a ton of film, paper & chemicals or a good headstart on a larger format system.

I won't be shopping for a new inkjet printer anytime soon.

[neil poulsen]

. . . I will say that the replacement has been fine, no problems at all, but it bothered me that I paid for a new printer, the new one had a problem not my fault, and I ended up with a refurb.

No Kidding! That would make me angry.

You paid for a new printer, you should have gotten a new printer that worked.

Talk about a shady operation. That printer you received could well be a defective unit that someone else returned.

[Brian Ellis]

No Kidding! That would make me angry.

You paid for a new printer, you should have gotten a new printer that worked.

Talk about a shady operation. That printer you received could well be a defective unit that someone else returned.

Tell me about it. IIRC I called Epson when I realized the replacement was a refurb and was basically told to go pound sand. Their theory was that I had a used (by me) printer before so I shouldn't complain when they sent me a used (by someone else, who knows who, how much, etc.) printer in exchange for my used printer.