810 Holocaust Photography Project Website Launches

[Eli Rubel]

I posted in the "On Photography" section, but I think this may be the more appropriate place to post this.

I have been working on this project for about six months now....after dealing primarily with the business end of things, I finally get to begin shooting again....

www.discoveringhopeproject.com

Cheers,

Eli

[PenGun]

Quit a few people don't see flash. There are still no 64 bit plugins for Linux and some, like myself, don't care for it.

[Eli Rubel]

ah. sorry about that. I dont particularly like "flashy" websites, but this stays very simple and clean.

[Eric Rose]

Actually I like Flash and have both the bandwidth and OS to enjoy it with. Time to get with the 21 century PenGun LOL.

Lovely project, well done. I agree these things need to be recorded and preserved for future generations.

[walter23]

My reaction here surprised me almost enough to make it worthy of discussion.

I've seen so many editorialists and political pundits bandy the holocaust around lately that the idea has almost lost its impact. In fact my first response was "kicking a dead horse" when I saw this project. Granted I have no first hand experience with the horror of it (e.g. a family member survivor, etc), but maybe that's why this is so interesting. For most of my life it has stood alone as a symbol of one of the worst things that could ever happen to people - a powerful symbol of the sorts of absolutely evil things that people can do to one another. And because it's been so horribly overused lately in partisan politics it's almost lost its impact, to the point that I want to roll my eyes and groan when someone creates yet another memorial to it. I guess that's kind of horrible when you think about it. The victims of it have no part in the current worldwide mess, nor the way that we've almost become dulled to it by constantly hearing it pulled up in editorials, etc - they were simply victims of a horrible regime.

I like your portraits. Simple nice portraits of real people. Kind of returns the holocaust to a place of sadness and personal tragedy, and out of the political arena and splashiness of major media & partisanship. Nice.

[PenGun]

Actually I like Flash and have both the bandwidth and OS to enjoy it with. Time to get with the 21 century PenGun LOL.

Lovely project, well done. I agree these things need to be recorded and preserved for future generations.

I have several OSs and many browsers, some of which run a flash plugin, but the one I use sees no ads and no flash. I like it that way.

My point was that it does limit your audience. That's all.

[Eli Rubel]

Kind of returns the holocaust to a place of sadness and personal tragedy, and out of the political arena and splashiness of major media & partisanship. Nice.


The goal of my project, I feel, is much different than to simply bring up the topic. From more of a historical standpoint...There is no existing formal photographic archive of survivors post liberation. There have been several short (none exceeding 100 portraits) editorial style photographs taken, but nothing with the intent or scope of my project. Artistic reasons aside, I am photographing these people not to bring media attention to the subject, because as you correctly have pointed out- there is plenty of that lately. But rather to provide a historical record, a means for education in the future when the survivors are no longer here to tell their stories.

I hope this clarifies things a bit for you.

-Eli

[Merg Ross]

Eli, you may be interested in the life and photographic work of my friend, and photographer, Raphael Shevelev. Your project brought him to mind. We met in 1991, after an urban wildfire destroyed 3,000 homes in our neighborhood, including his (and that of Peter Stackpole, who lived three blocks from me). It was through Raphael's efforts to portray the disaster, in a photographic exhibition, that initiated our friendship.

I will attempt to link you to his site.

http://www.raphaelshevelev.com/

[cdholden]

Eli,
Kudos on your work, both from an artistic sense as well as documentation. If you should ever find yourself in south Florida, make it a point to visit the Holocaust memorial in Miami Beach. Walking the site is the only way to truly experience it. The bronze sculpture in the middle of the lily pond is a powerful one and online photos don't do it justice.
http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/GALL34R/MIAMI22.HTM
http://www.holocaustmmb.org/

Chris

[Donald Miller]

Eli, I like your work as you have presented it here. Thanks for making me aware of it.

Best regards,
Donald Miller

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Eli, you should be commended for deciding to take a project of this scope and importance on, however; the link does not work for me. I tried both FireFox and IE.

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

I have several OSs and many browsers, some of which run a flash plugin, but the one I use sees no ads and no flash. I like it that way.

My point was that it does limit your audience. That's all.

Actually, several studies have shown websites that use flash vs. websites that don't use generate higher revenue and also have more repeat users.

[kev curry]

I'm interested to see this work but the link is dead for me?

[Andrew O'Neill]

Really beautiful portraits.

[r.e.]

Eli,

I would like to comment on your decision to control the viewer's experience of the site. For example, there is a built-in delay between the appearance of a victim's quote and the appearance of the victim's photograph. This delay occurs not only when the viewer goes forward through the photographs, but also when the viewer goes backward to have another look at a photograph. Also, there is no way for the viewer to see the photographs as a group so that he/she can choose which ones he/she wants to examine in detail.

When I first went to your site, using the Opera browser, I quickly concluded, in light of the fact that things seemed terribly slow and no photographs were appearing, that there must be either a problem with the site or a compatibility issue. So I moved to Firefox. As it happens, I stuck with Firefox long enough for a photograph to appear, at which point I realized that you were controlling the experience.

I have absolutely no problem with Flash. That said, and while of course it is your decision, I don't think that the control you are imposing on the viewer is a good idea. I think that it is going to cost you a lot of viewers, if only because they don't know what is going on, and it has cost me as a viewer, because I want, and expect, to be able to set the pace at which I see an exhibit. That's how it works in art galleries, and it isn't clear to me why this should be different. I'm sure you don't intend this, but I find this aspect of the presentation condescending/patronizing, and just plain annoying.

[Eli Rubel]

Eli, you should be commended for deciding to take a project of this scope and importance on, however; the link does not work for me. I tried both FireFox and IE.


I'm interested to see this work but the link is dead for me?

Give it another go today, I am still getting out all of the kinks with the site, but it should load just fine today....if your browser window goes white, give it a sec because it is probably loading.

Cheers,


Eli

[Ron Marshall]

Thanks for posting!

[Colin Graham]

Great work! Works fine on Firefox here.

I agree with r.e. about the presentation. Not as awkward once you realize you aren't actually waiting so as much as being paced through it, but you might make the viewers aware that it's more a film-style exhibit than a traditional web gallery.

[Steve M Hostetter]

wonderful portraiture and truely a subject that should never go away .

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

Eli, the work is absolutely excellent. 100% fantastic.

[Oren Grad]

Eli -

I agree with r.e. about the presentation.

You have a wonderful idea here, but as presented I fear that the material is too thin to carry the burden you would like it to bear. The portraits themselves are, by design, devoid of context, while the comments are too brief and generic to convey what the photographs don't and can't. I think it would help a great deal to allow your subjects to say more about their lives. Perhaps you already have that in mind for presentations in other venues or media.

Thanks for sharing the link, and good luck with this worthy effort...

...Oren

[Eli Rubel]

Eli,

I would like to comment on your decision to control the viewer's experience of the site. For example, there is a built-in delay between the appearance of a victim's quote and the appearance of the victim's photograph. This delay occurs not only when the viewer goes forward through the photographs, but also when the viewer goes backward to have another look at a photograph. Also, there is no way for the viewer to see the photographs as a group so that he/she can choose which ones he/she wants to examine in detail.

When I first went to your site, using the Opera browser, I quickly concluded, in light of the fact that things seemed terribly slow and no photographs were appearing, that there must be either a problem with the site or a compatibility issue. So I moved to Firefox. As it happens, I stuck with Firefox long enough for a photograph to appear, at which point I realized that you were controlling the experience.

I have absolutely no problem with Flash. That said, and while of course it is your decision, I don't think that the control you are imposing on the viewer is a good idea. I think that it is going to cost you a lot of viewers, if only because they don't know what is going on, and it has cost me as a viewer, because I want, and expect, to be able to set the pace at which I see an exhibit. That's how it works in art galleries, and it isn't clear to me why this should be different. I'm sure you don't intend this, but I find this aspect of the presentation condescending/patronizing, and just plain annoying.


I do still want to "direct" the viewer a bit, because I know, as a photographer, I tend to be impatient and just want to skip through the images. That said, I am going to be speeding up the delay so its less...akward. The backwards forwards thing is allready being fixed...so when you go through them the second time, it is instant.

-Eli

[John T]

Hi Eli,

I've been away so I didn't get see this until now. Nice website-it matches the feel of your original presentation of the prints well. I agree, to a point, with the delay of images. It was a good solution to how you wanted to get the viewers to see the people rather than the photograph of them. But here, in a forum of photographers, this may not be the most popular choice. Also, because you don't explain this concept, it is confusing and could be frustrating to the viewer.

I find it ironic that large format photographers are so frustrated with waiting for images. Isn't that how our friends and significant others feel about our photography?

I absolutely do not agree with r.e.'s assessment of how you are trying to control the presentation of your work. I could see and totally understand that it is annoying to some people. We all function differently, but to accuse a person of being condescending/patronizing when they have an alternate presentation concept is a little over-the-top.

When you go to a gallery the photos are printed to a certain size. This will affect how you view the work. If they are 30x40" you will look at them differently than if they are printed 4x5". The way the labels are done also affect the viewer's habits. In addition, how they are arranged, titled, framed, lit, etc. all affect the viewing of the work. If you think that you are in complete control of how you view work in a gallery, you are sadly mistaken. Having been a gallery director and a curator for many art shows I know that the presentation in a good gallery show is extremely well thought out and is not just about putting work up on a wall. The artist puts too much work into the creation of the artwork for the gallery designer to just throw things up on the walls.

If you read a book, it is designed to accomplish a goal-to affect the way that a person read the book. If you watch a movie, it is presented in a way that the creative people decide is best for their purposes. If you view this website as you might read a book, the presentation style might make more sense.

Eli, your project is evolving well. I hope that you will get the funding to allow you to photograph more people soon.

John

[IanG]

Eli, the images are excellent and I think your presentation is good too. I think I'd prefer to see the finished body of work, seeing this as work in progress doesn't really do it justice.

Ian

[David A. Goldfarb]

When I looked at it, it was so slow that I only got about five or six thumbnail sized images, so I didn't even know there was anything more to this project.

Could you imagine a book where you couldn't turn the page without waiting a certain interval, or a gallery where you had to wear magnetic shoes so you couldn't move from one image to the next at your own pace, or go easily back and look at something you had previously seen?

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

One more I won't even attempt because the discussion assures me I won't be able to see it with either the slow dialup or the satellite feed.

The tricks and such are probably nice but I won't waste my time with something I know I can't open or that sucks up so much bandwidth that the internet provider nicks us for some time with 24kbps service for downloading too much bandwidth.

Is Cable or DSL offered in your area? If so, why don't you just do away with that 15 year old technology? How do you even manage to browse the internet with a modem that slow? Even NetZero offers you unlimited access for $10 a month and they're remarkably fast from user reviews...

[kev curry]

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why.
A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.

Praying and Weeping at the feet of the past horrors of Fascism wont prevent its return in the next period!

[John T]

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why.

Lets expand this statement to landscapes. How do your photos compare to this statement. Do any of yours have any importance except to you? How have they changed or added to the body of work of the millions of photos taken of our planet. That has been done even more times than Holocaust survivors. Based on your statement, you should pack it in and not impose on anyone with your images.

Why do you think that this body of work is about
Praying and Weeping at the feet of the past horrors of Fascism Maybe it is a celebration of the strength and lives of those who persevered? Maybe they are portraits of people who happen to have some commonality-like most portrait series? Do you propose that we shouldn't take portraits anymore?

I think you should read this artist statement, "Art belongs to the people. It must let its roots go down deep into the very thick of the labouring masses. It should be understood and loved by these masses. It must unite and elevate their feelings, thoughts and will. It must awaken and develop the artistic instinct within them. Must we serve sweet cakes to a small minority while the workers and peasants are in need of black bread?" -Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

It seems that, based on some of the previous comments about the work that these photos are elevating feelings, thoughts and will. How about Eli? The fact that he was discovering something about his past allowed him to "awaken and develop his artistic instinct"


Praying and Weeping at the feet of the past horrors of Fascism wont prevent its return in the next period!
Did you mean won't or is wont to?

[kev curry]

John, no, my work is of no importance to anyone outside of my own group of friends and family and even then it is of no consequence.
Much has been written on the Holocaust, but in my view little has been understood. I personally fail to see how any work on this subject, given the great void in understanding that still exists, can even be conceived, without attempting to reach deeply into its heart and ask why. I'm entirely sure that these photos will elevating feelings, thoughts and will, and rightly so, but that wont be enough. We can watch a hundred old news reels or listen to a thousand unspeakable stories, or peer into the eyes of a million pained souls but none of that will ever explain why. None of that will prevent it from happening again.

These are the point's that I was making.

Praying and Weeping at the feet of the past horrors of Fascism won't prevent its return in the next period!

[David Spivak-Focus Magazine]

To be perfectly frank I see no point in adding yet another body of work -even a work as masterful as this clearly is -to the subject of the Holocaust that is devoid of any serious analysis of the question of why.
A million volumes have already been written and they all with few exceptions primarily function to shroud the episode in mystery, rendering the subject broadly incomprehensible and in so doing, serving to intellectually disarm any meaningful resistance to its future resuscitation.

Praying and Weeping at the feet of the past horrors of Fascism wont prevent its return in the next period!

This would be an excellent discussion to have if it were allowed here. Perhaps the mods could make an exception?

[PenGun]

This would be an excellent discussion to have if it were allowed here. Perhaps the mods could make an exception?
With current events the way they are you want no discussion about this subject. Trust me.

[Eli Rubel]

The website follows the format of my first presentation of the project....

While other people presenting work showed imagery first and then explained it, I chose to present the backs of the mount boards first on which I had attached the brief biographical text for each image. I didn't turn over the boards until everyone had read the descriptions for each portrait at which point I flipped them over and allowed the audience to put a face to the story.

While emulating this effect on a lesser scale through my website may cause me to lose some viewers, I feel that it is important. It forces people to slow down and actually "look."

This site is not meant to show of the complete body of work, but rather to provide an example and all of the information necessary for individuals or organizations to get involved with the project.

[Michael Alpert]

Eli,

I am from an ethnic background like yours, and I am uncomfortable with your project. I don't want to be unkind, but I think someone should say something here other than simple-minded complaints about your website's technology (excluding Kev Curry's remarks). Your portraits are of people taken out of their full experiential context. To see Jews, these Jews, as victims only, is both to diminish them and to distort the full sweep of their lives. You briefly mention what they individually have done as adults, including their work as artists and teachers; yet your portraits' visual backgrounds (and, by inference, your project's conceptual foundation) are blank, like Avedon's elitist portraits of working-class Westerners. We are left with a sense of life lost, not of life gained. The whole question of an aesthetic response to the Holocaust is difficult to frame. Much artistic work made in response to the Holocaust has, at best, questionable historical importance. Theodor Adorno's early response (that no poetry was possible in the shadow of the Holocaust) was perhaps overreaching; but it was appropriately cautionary. Added to that, there is the question of your particular role here, requesting donated money that is far far in excess of what a portrait, even an 8x10 portrait, would normally cost. My question is not just about money, but about your presence. You are acting in a way that is different than the way an historian would normally act. That is, you are setting yourself up as a "fine" artist with Holocaust "survivors" (read "victims") as your "material." Your self-created situation is blatantly problematic. I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong in any simple ethical sense, but it has deep contradictions that, I would think, are hard to face. Will your portraits actually help your subjects to experience happiness in old age? Beyond any theoretical "historical" importance, I hope your work will bring some significant degree of comfort to the people you are photographing.

[Eli Rubel]

Eli,

I am from an ethnic background like yours, and I am uncomfortable with your project. I don't want to be unkind, but I think someone should say something here other than simple-minded complaints about your website's technology (excluding Kev Curry's remarks). Your portraits are of people taken out of their full experiential context. To see Jews, these Jews, as victims only, is both to diminish them and to distort the full sweep of their lives. You briefly mention what they individually have done as adults, including their work as artists and teachers; yet your portraits' visual backgrounds (and, by inference, your project's conceptual foundation) are blank, like Avedon's elitist portraits of working-class Westerners. We are left with a sense of life lost, not of life gained. The whole question of an aesthetic response to the Holocaust is difficult to frame. Much artistic work made in response to the Holocaust has, at best, questionable historical importance. Theodor Adorno's early response (that no poetry was possible in the shadow of the Holocaust) was perhaps overreaching; but it was appropriately cautionary. Added to that, there is the question of your particular role here, requesting donated money that is far far in excess of what a portrait, even an 8x10 portrait, would normally cost. My question is not just about money, but about your presence. You are acting in a way that is different than the way an historian would normally act. That is, you are setting yourself up as a "fine" artist with Holocaust "survivors" (read "victims") as your "material." Your self-created situation is blatantly problematic. I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong in any simple ethical sense, but it has deep contradictions that, I would think, are hard to face. Will your portraits actually help your subjects to experience happiness in old age? Beyond any theoretical "historical" importance, I hope your work will bring some significant degree of comfort to the people you are photographing.

Michael, I would be more than happy to discuss the project with you at length over the phone if you wish- I feel that it would be more efficient than on this site. Feel free to send me a message if you would like my contact information.

I wanted to let everyone know I recently updated the website- a new list of some of the wonderful sponsors involved, as well as a blog which contains new imagery from the past 12 months of shooting and a huge update in celebration of my 65th portrait and interview for the project. I would love to hear what everyone thinks.

www.discoveringhopeproject.com -main site (you can get to the blog from the navigation bar)

OR

www.discoveringhopeproject.com/blog


-Eli

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Eli,

I am from an ethnic background like yours, and I am uncomfortable with your project. I don't want to be unkind, but I think someone should say something here other than simple-minded complaints about your website's technology (excluding Kev Curry's remarks). Your portraits are of people taken out of their full experiential context. To see Jews, these Jews, as victims only, is both to diminish them and to distort the full sweep of their lives. You briefly mention what they individually have done as adults, including their work as artists and teachers; yet your portraits' visual backgrounds (and, by inference, your project's conceptual foundation) are blank, like Avedon's elitist portraits of working-class Westerners. We are left with a sense of life lost, not of life gained. The whole question of an aesthetic response to the Holocaust is difficult to frame. Much artistic work made in response to the Holocaust has, at best, questionable historical importance. Theodor Adorno's early response (that no poetry was possible in the shadow of the Holocaust) was perhaps overreaching; but it was appropriately cautionary. Added to that, there is the question of your particular role here, requesting donated money that is far far in excess of what a portrait, even an 8x10 portrait, would normally cost. My question is not just about money, but about your presence. You are acting in a way that is different than the way an historian would normally act. That is, you are setting yourself up as a "fine" artist with Holocaust "survivors" (read "victims") as your "material." Your self-created situation is blatantly problematic. I am not saying that what you are doing is wrong in any simple ethical sense, but it has deep contradictions that, I would think, are hard to face. Will your portraits actually help your subjects to experience happiness in old age? Beyond any theoretical "historical" importance, I hope your work will bring some significant degree of comfort to the people you are photographing.

I can't discuss it in such a deep way (I've little historical knowledge on Holocaust),
so I've only one complaint: the scanned photos on Mr. Rubel's site aren't doing justice to the 8x10 negatives.
I can see a superb composition, for example, in the first picture showed, but the tones are flat, diminishing the impact one can associate to an original contact print from 8x10 negs.

Helcio

[John Kasaian]

Hi Eli,

I thought the program was very well done. Your portraits are superb & Ike's qoutation disturbingly prophetic.
Good job!

[Eli Rubel]

Hi Eli,

I thought the program was very well done. Your portraits are superb & Ike's qoutation disturbingly prophetic.
Good job!

Thanks John.

[Jim Galli]

I tried twice but could not go beyond Edith Ostern, the 5th or 6th portrait. It just stopped there with no further link available.

I also think you're shooting yourself in the foot asking for $935 per portrait. That just tells me you're an arteest and must have $150,000 a year to live in the manner you're accustomed to.

I love the rest! The site is simple and elegant which befits the subjects and the idea of the project. In keeping with an archival permanence, you should record your interviews and then re-record on 78 rpm shellac. That way 1,000 years hence their voices could be heard again.

[kev curry]

$935 per portrait, how about that!
The chaos of the profit system dragged the Jews to the incinerator....but regardless of that small issue theres still profits to be extracted from the misery.....the 'free' market eh!

[ljsegil]

$935 per portrait, how about that!
The chaos of the profit system dragged the Jews to the incinerator....but regardless of that small issue theres still profits to be extracted from the misery.....the 'free' market eh!

Kev,

I think you may have come across (at least to me) not as someone who feels the volume of historic material on the Holocaust makes its roots obscure to you, but perhaps rather as someone who, granted likely unwittingly, still holds to some of the same anti-semitic beliefs and stereotypes used by those who originally perpetrated this horror. The Nazi leaders could never have carried out the Holocaust by themselves, the crime required the active participation of thousands of previously ordinary citizens who willingly accepted the hatred and invective of their leaders to the point of knowingly committing such crimes against other humans, humans slaughtered solely for professing a different religious ideology than their killers, not because they had created "chaos in the profit system". That is mere propaganda which ought never have moved a population to slaughter another, without a pre-existing substrata of just these sorts of stereotypical hatreds which a psychopathic leadership can take advantage of and meld to even the most evil of human acts.

Please tell me I am mistaken in my interpretation of your post, but I cannot in good conscience leave it stand as is without comment.

Larry

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Kev,

I think you may have come across (at least to me) not as someone who feels the volume of historic material on the Holocaust makes its roots obscure to you, but perhaps rather as someone who, granted likely unwittingly, still holds to some of the same anti-semitic beliefs and stereotypes used by those who originally perpetrated this horror. The Nazi leaders could never have carried out the Holocaust by themselves, the crime required the active participation of thousands of previously ordinary citizens who willingly accepted the hatred and invective of their leaders to the point of knowingly committing such crimes against other humans, humans slaughtered solely for professing a different religious ideology than their killers, not because they had created "chaos in the profit system". That is mere propaganda which ought never have moved a population to slaughter another, without a pre-existing substrata of just these sorts of stereotypical hatreds which a psychopathic leadership can take advantage of and meld to even the most evil of human acts.

Please tell me I am mistaken in my interpretation of your post, but I cannot in good conscience leave it stand as is without comment.

Larry

Good text, Larry.
Interesting: in Brazil, people impute the "chaos in the profit system" to the Palestinian, Libanese and Syrian immigrants...
They are all called "turkish", since their passports were issued by the late Otoman Empire.

[Michael Alpert]

$935 per portrait, how about that!
The chaos of the profit system dragged the Jews to the incinerator....but regardless of that small issue theres still profits to be extracted from the misery.....the 'free' market eh!

Kev,

I think the Eli Rubel's portrait project has some perplexing aspects, but your response is immature and completely moronic. No one else on this forum is questioning the basic ethical standards of the photographer. At this point in history, we need to remember the Holocaust without oversimplifying its implications for the future. It is very difficult for any artist to approach this subject without some degree of self-contradiction. Any discomfort on my part is in response to a far deeper problem than you seem able to imagine.

[Jim Michael]

I also think you're shooting yourself in the foot asking for $935 per portrait. That just tells me you're an arteest and must have $150,000 a year to live in the manner you're accustomed to.


I don't know what all formed the basis of the calculations, but consider the cost of traveling to a site with your equipment, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. That, in addition to other overhead for such a project makes that per image price seem very reasonable. Those contributing to such a project want it to succeed. Underestimating the cost, and thereby forcing donors into either donating more funds than initially requested or seeing the initial funds wasted when the project can't be completed makes everyone involved look bad - the artist, those who acted as proponents on behalf of the artist, etc. Serious contributors are going to take a close look at the figures to determine whether the project can be completed with the requested funds.

[msk2193]

Eli,

Wonderful portraits.

[kev curry]

Larry,

I am pleased to tell you that you are totally mistaken in your interpretation of my post.

Please let me try to clarify.

In my view -which I believe is supported by the historic record, but of course fiercely contested- the phenomena of fascism ie the decision of the forces of the state to thoroughly dispense with the existing forms of democracy in favour of extreme forms of nationalistic authoritarianism cant be understood as some sort of ugly aberration.

It (fascism) can only be understood as the most extreme expression of the breakdown of the 'profit system' ie the breakdown of Capitalism. In other words Fascism grows inevitably and organically from the many irresolvable contradictions inherent within capitalism its self.

When the global meltdown of Capital that precipitated the horrors of the 2nd WW began, someone by neccessity had to be held accountable, someone had to be scapegoated. Of course the under lying basis of the financial meltdown, global war and the turn to Fascism could never be addressed objectively, -just as it is today- because that would mean the finger would have to be pointed directly at the 'profit system'.

By virtue of the relatively high number of important and influential positions held by a minority of Jews in the political and banking sectors etc etc they (the Jews) were used as a convenient smoke screen to conceal the realities of political and economic life.
They became the focus responsible for the ensuing chaos, the scapegoats, the perfect diversion from the true issues.

So I don't share your belief that the Jews were ''slaughtered solely for professing a different religious ideology''. ''Religious ideology'' never came into it that's just another smoke screen another piece of the same propaganda, primarily designed to confuse and obscure the fundamental nature of things.

There's nothing ''obscure'' about the ''roots'' of the holocaust.

I saw through all the bullshit and officially manufactured propaganda that created the ''anti-semitic beliefs and stereotypes'' a long time ago.

Sincerely
kev




Kev,

I think you may have come across (at least to me) not as someone who feels the volume of historic material on the Holocaust makes its roots obscure to you, but perhaps rather as someone who, granted likely unwittingly, still holds to some of the same anti-semitic beliefs and stereotypes used by those who originally perpetrated this horror. The Nazi leaders could never have carried out the Holocaust by themselves, the crime required the active participation of thousands of previously ordinary citizens who willingly accepted the hatred and invective of their leaders to the point of knowingly committing such crimes against other humans, humans slaughtered solely for professing a different religious ideology than their killers, not because they had created "chaos in the profit system". That is mere propaganda which ought never have moved a population to slaughter another, without a pre-existing substrata of just these sorts of stereotypical hatreds which a psychopathic leadership can take advantage of and meld to even the most evil of human acts.

Please tell me I am mistaken in my interpretation of your post, but I cannot in good conscience leave it stand as is without comment.

Larry

[ljsegil]

Kev,
You are merely blinded yourself by a completely unsupportable dogmatic ideology which has become trendy today in some unsighted, ill-educated and misled portions of world society. It is not an ideology that will help solve the world's inequalities, though its supporters would have you believe otherwise. Your entirely economic view of the rise of Nazism is only a portion of the truth, and your assertion that the Jews were scapegoated because they held too many positions of power simply shows that you, even now, believe the propaganda used by the Nazis and so many other anti-semitic group throughout time. I imagine you might even assert that the same condition prevails today, but then you would have to explain why a people numbering only 18 million on a planet of 3 billion inhabitants could come to such positions of authority. Certainly not by sheer force of numbers. I think, if you were to examine the facts, you would find that Jews are in responsible positions in those more democratic societies that function as meritocracies and reward accomplishment, not in the authoritarian societies which dominate far too much of the earth and almost uniformly continue to hold to the prejudices and practice the intolerance which you have now shown that you too conform.
You have clearly stated your beliefs, but unfortunately not shown that my first posting was a misinterpretation, but rather an understatement of the extent to which your views are guided by ideologies of falsehood (and falsifying history), hatred and intolerance. Your beliefs ought have no traction at all in a free and educated society (though of course such societies are the only ones that permit the open expression of such views that are at odds to the truth, and indeed the well-being of an open society) and a project like Eli's should help serve to prevent views such as your own from ever being beyond the fringe of society where they belong.
I'm sure you're a better photographer than I, but I'm afraid I find your prejudices, politics, and blindness to what is shown by the actual (and documented) facts of history to be terrifying. It is said that those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it; the same is true of those who may study history but refuse to accept it. Papering over the truth with lies does not change the truth, but unfortunately, if accepted widely enough, the obscuration of actual fact by fiction can have terrifying consequences, as most of history is best left unrepeated. Through tolerance and acceptance we can move forward towards a more just society, the course of hatred and intolerance is all too clear in history's records. Let us never repeat.
Larry

[Michael Alpert]

Larry,

Thank you.

[kev curry]

Larry, I think that I stated quite clearly that it was ''convenient'' read ''convenient'' for the Nazis to scapegoat the Jews because of the positions that they held in the financial sector e.g banking etc etc.

At no point did I imply that the Jews bore any objective responsibility for the economic chaos that preceded the event of that period. The contradictions of the Capitalist system took care of that all by them selves without paying any heed to creed, culture or ideology.

''your views are guided by ideologies of falsehood (and falsifying history), hatred and intolerance. Your beliefs ought have no traction at all in a free and educated society''

I'm more that a little puzzled here...where did you find this in my postings?
We could argue over differences of historical analysis but ''hatred and intolerance''?

''I'm afraid I find your prejudices, politics, and blindness to what is shown by the actual (and documented) facts of history to be terrifying''.

I'll refrain from over reacting to this statement, but I'm at a loss to understand how you could even remotely arrive at this position from my postings?

What ''prejudices, politics'', and ''blindness'' do you find to be ''terrifying''?.

What ''actual (and documented) facts of history''.[/I] are you refering to?

I find it curious that you don't even attempt to counter my thinking on this subject with any form of concrete analysis of your own, other than... ''Through tolerance and acceptance we can move forward towards a more just society, the course of hatred and intolerance is all too clear in history's records. Let us never repeat''.

What about the realities of political and economic life right now? Do you think that there is any evidence to suggest that we are moving ''forward towards a more just society''... when we are possibly entering into the most unstable and chaotic period in mans history?

I would be interested to hear your considered analysis on what gives rise to the phenomenon of Fascism and why the Jews were annihilated? What were the primary reasons?

We are all living through a time where the virtues of ''tolerance and acceptance'' are coming under there greatest threat. Right wight, extreme Nationalistic and Fascistic ideologies are once again on the rise and gaining momentum.

How do you explain the re emergence of these forces?
How big a ''portion'' does economics play in giving rise to Nazism and what other factors are involved?

What perspectives are you proposing to counter the reemergence of these tendencies? And what are you proposing to ensure that history is ''never repeated''?

Lastly, maybe if you were to re-read my posts a little more carefully and consider your own agenda a bit more closely, you would then reconsider building a sham case that seeks to brand me as an anti-Semite.

Sincerely
kev

[Eli Rubel]

That just tells me you're an arteest and must have $150,000 a year to live in the manner you're accustomed to.

I love the rest! The site is simple and elegant which befits the subjects and the idea of the project. In keeping with an archival permanence, you should record your interviews and then re-record on 78 rpm shellac. That way 1,000 years hence their voices could be heard again.


I think it is appropriate for me to mention that I am 21 years old, making this project happen with little fiscal support, and I am able to do so by restricting myself to a college students budget. ( think- lots of top ramen :rolleyes: ) I have a complete and thorough budget that breaks down all of the costs per portrait etc and in the end I make absolutely no profit. It is set up to cover my costs and overhead while working on the project, which at this point it hasn't been able to do.

I appreciate your feedback and the audio suggestion is very interesting- something I will look into once the shooting has calmed down.




I don't know what all formed the basis of the calculations, but consider the cost of traveling to a site with your equipment, hotel, car rental, meals, etc. That, in addition to other overhead for such a project makes that per image price seem very reasonable. Those contributing to such a project want it to succeed. Underestimating the cost, and thereby forcing donors into either donating more funds than initially requested or seeing the initial funds wasted when the project can't be completed makes everyone involved look bad - the artist, those who acted as proponents on behalf of the artist, etc. Serious contributors are going to take a close look at the figures to determine whether the project can be completed with the requested funds.


Thank you Jim. All of what you mentioned is true, although the longer I work on the project, the more I find myself using less and less film/processing etc so that has made the total number of portraits increase exponentially. I am now looking at more like 300 total.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Eli,

Nice site and good luck with it, only 1 problem:

"$935 per portrait, how about that!"

the guys here really did not want to be reminded how expensive LF actually is.

[Eli Rubel]

New Blog Update

www.discoveringhopeproject.com/blog