what wide angle for 4x5?

[knut]

dear all,
i am very new to this all, large format photography, this forum, etc.
i am about to purchase a 4x5 tachihara, and now have to decide on the kind of lenses i want / need to get: thus far i have been exclusively using a mamiya 6 with the (excellent) 50mm lense, and i would very much like to get a lense now which will be as close to this one as possible, in the "feel" (and the distortion) of the image: exact numbers are certainly not important, but i would like to continue / compliment the same body of work with the larger format. i read somewhere that the equivalent of a 50mm medium format lense would be " a 100mm, or better: 90mm lense". is that so? does 135mm qualifie as well? and do you have particular suggestions?
thank you so much for your advice,
knut

[BrianShaw]

some people go really wide -- 65, etc. For the LF equivelent of a MF 50 lens, I find 135 to often suffice but a 90 to be better. The 90, however, is less simple to use because it (my set-up at least) benefits from bag bellows and recessed lens board. In hindsight I might have thought to split the difference and go with a 120.

[Archphoto]

One thing you should be thinking about is image-circle and how much shift you may want.
A 75 Super Angulon or Grandagon will give you more room to play with than a 65.
If you want realy wide have a a look at the 58XL .

The 75 was my main wide-angle, together with a 115 Grandagon.

Peter


Sinar P2 4x5 and 8x10

[Gem Singer]

From my experience with the 4X5 Tachi, the ideal set of lenses that afforded the best range of focal lengths with that camera (since it has a fixed bellows, with a maximum length of approx. 300 mm) is:

90SW
135W or 150W
180W or 210W

Schneider, Rodenstock, Fujinon, and Nikon all make excellent lenses in those focal lengths. Caltar lenses are rebadged Rodenstocks and Schneiders. Usually less expensive.

[Bruce Watson]

i am very new to this all, large format photography, this forum, etc. i am about to purchase a 4x5 tachihara, and now have to decide on the kind of lenses i want / need to get...

Indeed. My advice, as always, is to get a 135mm or 150mm lens to learn with. Why? Because what you know about using a Mamiya 6 will be of little help in learning how to use a view camera. What will be a help in learning to use a view camera is being able to see what the heck is going on when you use movements. A 90mm lens will make that considerably more difficult. A "normal" lens is the way to go. Seriously. I'm not kidding.

No, you won't listen. No one does. I didn't. That doesn't mean it's not the right advice. You have to either learn from other peoples' mistakes, or repeat those mistakes yourself. Get the 90mm lens *after* you've become fluent with a view camera; by then you'll know enough to decide whether it's the right lens for you.

[Pat Kearns]

Take Bruce's advice on the 135 or 150. I bought my Tachi back in 1994 with a 150mm. That was the only lens I had until about June of 2007 when I bought a 90mm. Since it's purchase, I use it about 5% with the 150 being used the other 95% of the time. Unless you are strictly a wide angle shooter then go for a 90. The Tach doesn't have interchangable bellows and 75mm is the shortest lens you can use with it. Movements with my 90 does get tight at times so I can imagine the tightness with a
75mm.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Yes, Bruce gives very good advice. There are so many things to learn about LF photography, things which cannot be done with a "normal" camera. You will have many weekends before you with exploring all the fun things you can do with a "normal" lens.
Besides, you already do have an excellent wide angle with that 50mm on the Mamaya. It takes an experienced LF photographer to get better results than what you get with that combo. (In my mind, a MF camera is much better than a 35mm. A LF camera is somewhat better than a MF camera, but the difference is much smaller.)
Now, you don't mention your budget for the lens(es), so it's hard to give more precise advice. But (more or less) any lens from the four brands which Gem Singer mentions are good. (In reality so good that you cannot tell them apart from the pictures.) Don't be afraid of buying used lenses. There are plenty of threads to look at in this subforum and the "Lenses and ..." subforum, which deals with these questions.

//Björn

[venchka]

A thought that just occured to me. This may or may not be relevant.

You like the 50mm on a square negative. A 4x5 negative is automatically "wider" than 6x6. The 4x5 negative will "see" more.

Sage advice already given. You may also wish to consider 125mm as your "normal" lens. Small and light and slightly wider than the 135mm & 150mm lenses already mentioned. Specifically, the 125mm 5.6 Fujinon-W lens.

[BrianShaw]

No, you won't listen. No one does. I didn't. That doesn't mean it's not the right advice. You have to either learn from other peoples' mistakes, or repeat those mistakes yourself. Get the 90mm lens *after* you've become fluent with a view camera; by then you'll know enough to decide whether it's the right lens for you.

I listened. I agree. I bought my first LF WA lens, a 90, just last year... some 20-something years after starting in LF. Maybe I'm a late-bloomer? But the few times I've used it is making me more convinced that it might not be for me. (I almost never use a 50 in MF.) I see things more "normal" than "wide" most of the time.

[venchka]

I didn't know I was listening. Apparently I listened. Or didn't know any better.

4x5 Camera #1 came with a 127mm lens.
4x5 camera #2 came with a 180mm lens.

Bruce, Pat & Brian: How did I do?

[BrianShaw]

I think you did G-R-E-A-T! Much better than me because I went from 135 (thre e of them, on threee different cameras) to 210, then 250 SF, then 90... but still use the 135 99% of the time.

[Eric Brody]

Even though you like the 50 on the M6, I agree with Bruce and the others that a 135 or better yet, a 150, is the way to go to start out. Photography with a view camera is quite different than with a 6x6 rangefinder, specially if the M6 is used, as I suspect, hand held. Simply put, it will be easier to progress up the 4x5 learning curve with a lens with a more "normal" angle of view. Good 135-150's are relatively inexpensive, especially used, and can be sold with little if any loss if you really fall in love with the wider view of the 90. I would definitely avoid starting with anything wider than a 90 in any circumstance. Really wide lenses are a challenge to use with a 4x5, from leveling the camera to seeing in the corners and focusing.

On the advice of a knowledgeable salesman, in 1978, I got a 210 Fuji to go with my brand new Toyo 45A. I had only that lens for a few years, and still haveit and still use it frequently. My next lens was a 90. I learned a lot about using a view camera, movements, focusing, depth of field. I probable enjoyed the 210 since an 85 was my favorite lens with 35mm film.

I think fewer lenses is better, and that I probably have too many!

Good luck.

Eric

[Ron Marshall]

I had a Mamiya 6, now have a 7. The 50mm is a nice lens for the 6; the 90 on 4x5 is closest to it. The 90 is one of my favourites on 4x5.

Buy something and try it. It is easy to resell LF gear if you find it doesn't suit you.

[venchka]

Thanks Brian!

Truth is I have 3 other lenses. I didn't buy them so they don't count. Do they?

[Gem Singer]

Be aware that using a 75, or shorter, lens on a Tachi could be problematic because of bellows compression and limited focusing range.

You will probably need to use a recessed lens board for a 75 if you want to use larger movements, and a center filter if you are using transparency film. Those items can be pricey.

You are correct in comparing focal lengths between the 6X6 and 4X5 formats. A 50 on 6X6 is equivalent to a 90-105 on the 4X5 format. However, the aspect ratio is different for 6X6 and 4X5. Try before you buy.

[Matus Kalisky]

As I have both the Tachi and a 75 mm lens (75/4.5 N Grandagon) I thingk I can comment on this combination a bit.
First of all - it may be only a feature of my Tachi, but when the bellows are compressed, they allow more fall than rise movement.

You have to choices using the 75 lens on a Tachi.
1) Put it on a flat lensboard - the bellows are compressed - you get about 1 cm rise (the bellows do get crunched a bit, but this you can manage after the shot).
If you use a linhof style off ceter drilled lensboard you may not be able to mount it "upside down" ( to gain some rise) if the rear element is large - like on my 75/4.5. In such a case a center drilled lensboard may be a better choice.

2) Use a recessed lens board. Here I would like to warn you from getting a center drilled recessed lensboard (I did - from eBay - a cheap one) as a Copal#1 shutter will not fit (you will not be able to load the shutter). So you need an linhof-style offset lensboard. I got an original Linhof (about 19mm of recession). It will allow you about 1,5 cm of rise but 7 mm of those are eaten up by the fact that the drilling has an offset. But again - the opening on the front standard of the tachi is rather small and does not allow to mount the lensboard upside-down.

Bottom line: using a 75mm lens on a Tachi is indeed possible, however full rise movements can not be achieved.

A good choice for 75 mm lens for Tachi could be the 75/6.8 Grandagon N that is cheaper and also lighter tha the f/4.5 version. It has smaller coverage (187mm I guess - versus 195mm), but should be more than enough for landscape photography.

[Ernest Purdum]

Should you decide on a 135mm, stay away from the f4.5 versions. They don't have large enough image circles for you to use in finding out what your movements can do for you.

[neil poulsen]

I like to take aspect ratio into consideration when making lens comparisons.

If you tend to print square and wish to continue printing square from 4x5, then the corresponding lens would be 83mm. So, an 80mm Schneider would be closest.

If in shooting your Mamiya 6, you tend to print more towards a 4x5 aspect ratio (versus square), then the corresponding lens would be a 105mm. There's a Fuji 105mm Superwide that sometimes makes its way to EBay. Or, a 110mm Schneider as something a little longer and of better quality.

If you tend to print square on your Mamiya 6 and look to printing in a 4x5 aspect ratio on your VC, then you're entering a little different world. Maybe a 90mm in this case, using the diagonals from each format to determine the corresponding lens.

[knut]

thank you all very much for your suggestions. i do have some prior experience with lf, and i think i will try to find the fujinon 125mm, it seems to be a good compromise. so many ins and outs everywhere. but again, thank you.

[Kirk Fry]

I learned on a 210mm, I was stunned to find out that the wide angles mostly did not do movements except rise. You shoot them mostly straight ahead. The other thing I learned is the that wide angles are most effective taking pictures of stuff about a foot away with an interesting background. The near far thing. They are truly wonderful at making large mountains look like mole hills. K

[eddie]

so far the advise is good. i only had a 165mm on 4x5 for 12-14 years...then i startd my accumulation....:)

i use many different FL. i have to say i really love my 90mm. i bought a 65mm f8 just for fun. i focus it in close and stop it way down to get some coverage. i do not use it all that much...but i wanted to try it.

i have a 240 convertible i use a lot also.....seems i do not use the 150-165 all that much anymore....must have burned out.

love the 90. you might as well try it...the f8 versions are fairly cheap these days.

[GeorgesGiralt]

Hi !
If you never played with large format, hurry and dump all you've learned about format/lenses angle of view and the like.
Each film format dictates some peculiarities and you'll have to adapt to it.
4x5 is no different. So stick to the "normal lens" (around the 150 mm focal length which is about the exact diagonal measurement of the 4x5 image)...
And when you'll have enough practice you will find yourself needing something new. So you'll look at a longer or a shorter lens, depending on your inclination. I have a 90 mm lens, and a 360. It appears that I use the 360 more often than the 90... Filling all the negative space with a 90 mm lens is tough....

[nikon_sam]

Indeed. My advice, as always, is to get a 135mm or 150mm lens to learn with. Why? Because what you know about using a Mamiya 6 will be of little help in learning how to use a view camera. What will be a help in learning to use a view camera is being able to see what the heck is going on when you use movements. A 90mm lens will make that considerably more difficult. A "normal" lens is the way to go. Seriously. I'm not kidding.

No, you won't listen. No one does. I didn't. That doesn't mean it's not the right advice. You have to either learn from other peoples' mistakes, or repeat those mistakes yourself. Get the 90mm lens *after* you've become fluent with a view camera; by then you'll know enough to decide whether it's the right lens for you.



Bruce makes a good arguement here...I bought my camera with a 90mm and 210mm then went back to get a 150mm...
The 150mm is the one I grab first and then go from there BUT mostly stay there...
I agree with something between 135 & 150 to start with then learn where you want to go from there...

You might try renting a lens just to see how you get along with it first...

[Anders_HK]

dear all,
i am very new to this all, large format photography, this forum, etc.
i am about to purchase a 4x5 tachihara, and now have to decide on the kind of lenses i want / need to get: thus far i have been exclusively using a mamiya 6 with the (excellent) 50mm lense, and i would very much like to get a lense now which will be as close to this one as possible, in the "feel" (and the distortion) of the image: exact numbers are certainly not important, but i would like to continue / compliment the same body of work with the larger format. i read somewhere that the equivalent of a 50mm medium format lense would be " a 100mm, or better: 90mm lense". is that so? does 135mm qualifie as well? and do you have particular suggestions?

thank you so much for your advice,
knut

Hi Knut,

I too am new to 4x5 and only one step ahead of you. I have a Shen-Hao TFC45-IIB, a camera for 4x5 wide angle use, and one lens: Nikkor 75mm SW f/4.5. That lens equals 22mm on 35mm terms, or similar view as my beloved view using 43mm on my Mamiya 7 or 28mm on my Mamiya 645 using Leaf Aptus 65 ditial back. To be frank, I have only done one shoot, using 4x5 and a 617 adapter. The focal length did match my expectations. So did all else, except the weakness of the Shen-Hao groundglass being far too dim.

I do feel comfortable with my one choice of lens, because it was the one focal lens I preferred for the subjects I also planned shooting with my Shen-Hao.

If I am not misstaking, the Mamiya 6 has an image format of 58x58mm. That gives a diagonal of 82mm.

4x5 has the dimensions 118x98mm, thus a diagonal of 153mm. Thus it seems a 50mmx153/82 = 93mm would equal your lens on average/ per the diagonal of frame.

However, simply by width of frame a 50mmx118/58 = 101mm would so.

This is what I used in determination, and it worked fine for my personal preference. Lens movements was no problem, and they are a tad simpler on my camera than the one you consider, but dimness of groundglass is one I will improve with a Maxwell.

Best regards,
Anders

[Gordon Moat]

A fresnel kit would help, if you are dedicating your 4x5 camera to only wide angle lenses. The fresnel is not so convenient with longer lenses, which really don't need the improvement.

I just picked up a 90mm Rodenstock f6.8 used for a really great price. It is definitely not as bright as my 135mm f5.6, and nowhere near the brightness of my 180mm f5.6. Be prepared for a very slow pace of set-up starting with a 90mm; the extra brightness of longer lenses means faster set-up.

Ciao!

Gordon Moat Photography (http://www.gordonmoat.com)

[soeren]

Anders
Where did you buy your Shen Hao?
Kind regards
Søren

[spiky247]

for wide but not too wide, may I suggest the Nikkor 120mm SW, although it's a f/8 lens, it has oodles of coverage and is very sharp from edge to edge. It's a classic biogon design, and the best thing is you won't need a center filter.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3039/2833328730_563287f42e_b.jpg
said lens at f/11 and 1/2 exposure for 8min on HP5

-----
www.flickr.com/photos/charlie.xia

[venchka]

spiky247,

Well done! My sentiments exactly. Wide but doesn't scream W--I--D--E. There is a 125mm Fujinon-W headed my way. I can do really wide with 35mm or 6x7.

[spiky247]

but then i was going to say if you want super wide,there's always the 47XL or 58XL. I prefer the 58XL because there's a little bit more room for movement. Some times you really want to SCREAM super wide :-) I find the 58XL, 72XL and 120SW a good combo

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/46/177274467_a178119f45_b.jpg
58XL f8 1/60s handheld, shift up about 15mm on Cambowide with out CF

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2897997243_ce2f0c9bab_o.jpg
72XL f16 8s with out CF, at full shift

----
www.flickr.com/photos/charlie.xia

[Anders_HK]

Anders
Where did you buy your Shen Hao?
Kind regards
Søren

Søren,

In their store in Shanghai, their store is in the "camera/photo" shopping mall at corner on LuBan Lu / Xietu Lu, see map on their site www.shen-hao.com.

Personally I like the TFC45-IIB because non folding makes for easy set up. It is also low weight and rigid rear standard.

Regards
Anders