Archival Water and Fire Proof Negative Storage

[danchan]

I went on an amazing trip to China for several weeks in December/January with my 4x5. When I returned, I had a voicemail from my landlord that the apartment upstairs (3rd floor) had a pipe burst the day after I left. All three floors of the apartment building flooded! Somehow, miraculously, the waterfalls that ran down my walls missed most of my stuff and everything survived relatively unscathed -- although I'm still cleaning it all up. The apartment downstairs was not as lucky. My neighbor had lots of photography monographs ruined -- Koudelka, Kawauchi... Painful. The water had run right over her bookshelf.

I realized that I could replace most everything in my apartment but I couldn't replace my negatives. I've since thought about storing them in waterproof boxes, and that lead me to consider storing them in fireproof boxes. Funny how it never before occurred to me to plan for a flood or a fire. I know there was a previous thread about this but I'm hoping to renew this topic in case there are some new insights. What kinds of solutions have you all come up with?

I'm also wondering about any archival issues in storing negatives in an airtight container. I currently store my negatives in PrintFile sleeves in an archival box binder on a bookshelf. Luckily, the negatives were at the opposite end of my railroad apartment from the flooding.

[Turner Reich]

It's a subject constantly on my mind, as the creation grows so does my need for some kind of a permanent storage solution. I hope some great ideas come forth here.

[Michael Rosenberg]

I think fireproof boxes are not; they are fire resistant! And they may not be water resistant. Glassine envelopes may be more heat resistant than the printfile sleeves. You would get more fire protection I think from storing your negatives in the surplus ammo boxes, which are also water tight and air tight. Consider an old small refrigerator - the insulation of these may be good for heat resistance, and if they have a good gasket they would be water proof (put a hasp on the door to help keep closed).

Mike

[jb7]

I think it should be possible to build one relatively cheaply if you start with any metal box of the size you need,
and encase it in layers of plasterboard with intumescent seals around the hatch-
which would also accommodate the door of the box-
and plaster it-

Two ½" slabs should provide one hour protection, more should give more.

An additional layer might be used to line the box interior-

Waterproofing should be easy enough to build in,
particularly if the box is not sitting on a floor that is likely to be flooded-
and if individual items were placed in waterproof containers within the box.

Good question, makes you think...

[Ron Marshall]

Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-2087-87-Cubic-Foot-One-Hour-Waterproof/dp/B000MPMEZM/ref=pd_cp_hi_1?pf_rd_p=413863601&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B000GAYUR8&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1T6XKRVC769P7VSJKG73

[Alan Rabe]

The big issue might be between fire proof and heat proof. Yes the negatives may not burn, But if the heat gets just a little to high they may melt or at the least the emulsion may be destroyed

[Eric Woodbury]

I have asked this question before and never found a good and inexpensive answer. I have written to universities, the Smithsonian, architects, and the Getty Museum. Only the Smithsonian was slightly helpful. Most preservationist are worried about acid in paper, while I'm worried about a raging wildfire. I live in the mountains in SoCal and in our area, last year alone, we had the Gap Fire (10,000 acres, no homes) and the Tea Fire (several hundred homes including a friends'). Whatever you build against this kind of fire needs to be fireproof for days, because that is how long it will be before anybody even goes into the area to check what has burned or not.

As I'm getting tired of worrying about such things, I have come up with my latest idea. It is a concrete bunker in the backyard. I called a local pre-cast concrete company and found that they will make and deliver a 'bomb shelter' or vault or whatever you wish to call it to anywhere they can get a truck. 8x10x7' interior is 22,000 pounds of high pressure concrete. Walls are 6" thick. It will survive everything but a direct nuclear hit. Waterproof unless it is setting in the waves on the beach. It is made of two pieces clam-shelled together with sealant. They will place voids in the concrete anywhere for doors or electrical connections, etc. Cost is on the high side, but when the fire is done, what do you figure your negatives are worth?

I'm going to investigate further. I have to find a 'fireproof' door, which will probably be a heavy industrial door and a cover door. The vault will be covered in dirt on three sides and combustibles nearby will be eliminated. Maybe I'll plant grass on top.

I'll keep you posted. Fire season is just around the corner.

[Sal Santamaura]

http://www.undergroundvaults.com/

[Toyon]

A safe company guy I sat next to told me that I should get a "media safe". Fireproof/Fire resistant safes permit temperatures too high for negatives. They are designed primarily against fire instead of theft. If you don't have the space for a bunker, one of these could be a good idea.

[Struan Gray]

Waterproof containers, inside a freezer, in a deep cellar or inside a concrete and rockwool hut in your existing cellar.

Making a large space waterproof is hard (think burst pipe from subsidence or an earth tremor that also cracks the walls), so it's worth putting small boxes of negs into small waterproof containers. Powder coated steel is best (aka ammo boxes), but peli cases or kitchen containers like the sealing lock-and-lock ones will do if you can live with the outgassing (it'll be low if you freeze). A two stage box, or a bag-in-a-box can be good when you try to remove the negs from their enclosure after the outside has been covered in mud and/or fire debris.

Freezing helps to preserve the negs, and stops mould. A power outage, fire or flood will stop the freezer working, but provided it doesn't get cooked the negs in their boxes shouldn't get hurt. A frost free model which doesn't leave a load of water around the neg boxes when it fails is a good idea.

Now you need to fire proof and heat proof everything so that the negs don't wrinkle. An underground bunker works best (but is most prone to flooding :-). A cast concrete hutch in an existing cellar can work well, but making it heat proof to withstand a fire from resinous trees is not trivial. Make sure that any insulation you use is not flammable.

I have been looking at photos of the recent Australian fires. Anything that provides the sustained heat needed to melt the alloy wheels off a car is going to require substantial engineering if you want guarantees that your negs won't fry, or be damaged by something around them that melts or burns. I'm sure it can be done though, albeit at a price.

Finally, this is a neat solution for those who want a small vault under their house:

http://www.spiralcellars.com

I'm sure you could fireproof the top door to a reasonable extent.

[Turner Reich]

I'm going to investigate further. I have to find a 'fireproof' door, which will probably be a heavy industrial door and a cover door. The vault will be covered in dirt on three sides and combustibles nearby will be eliminated. Maybe I'll plant grass on top.

Look for a steel door from a ship in a salvage yard.

[Eric Woodbury]

Turner,

Interesting idea. There may be ship salvage in Ventura area. Also, I'm looking for a fire door use in industry that is metal on both sides and drywall in the middle. Very heavy. I hope to cover this with an outer door made of a cement panel. I use cement panels on my house and they are easy to come by, cheap, and will not burn. As the door will be facing a large rock, I'm not expecting much radiated energy in that direction.

[Toyon]

I've arranged to have copy negatives slipped through a wormhole to a parallel universe. You just can't get any safer than that.

[Jim Cole]

I've looked at all sorts of fireproof safes over the last few years and have found out that their fire ratings are for paper, not film. Not one single company (of three that I asked) could give me a resistance time for film, which in my mind, will melt long before paper burns. A safe that will protect paper for a couple of hours in a raging fire, may only protect film for a few minutes. The fact that I haven't found the answer to this question is bothersome.

I am still unprotected if I am not home when something bad happens. I had a wake up call about 6 years ago on December 22nd when the apartment building I was living in at the time caught fire. At 2:30 in the morning there was a horrific pounding on the front door. I opened the door in my skivies with my wife in her PJs and a fireman in full protective gear was there with smoke all behind him. He simply yelled at us, "Get the f*** out NOW!"

We grabbed out freaked out cat, threw on winter coats and ran out. I remember standing out front in the freezing cold watching the fire creep towards our unit, thinking..."oh my God, my film, all our finances, the computer..."

Fortunately the fire started at the other end of the two story eight unit building and they got the fire out as it ate through the apt next to ours on the second floor. We lost nothing, but four other units were toast three days before Christmas.

Three years ago we had a northern Arizona wildfire come to within 1/2 mile of our home. The police were in our neighborhood getting ready to issue evacuation orders when the fire was brought under control. I had my files and notebooks of film, three cats, our computer, and two bags of fire preparation supplies ready to put in the car.

I wish I had a basement to install a solution like has been suggested, but I don't. I worry about this all the time...I worry about ten years of work.

Jim

[danchan]

I did a quick search and I think the "media" safes mentioned earlier might be able to keep film from getting ruined in a fire. They keep the interior below 125 degrees Fahrenheit and are rated for how many hours they can maintain that temperature in a fire. It looks like there are 1, 2 and 3 hour safes. They are fairly expensive. This probably won't help in a multi-day wildfire, but for an apartment in the city it might be a good on-site solution.

An off-site alternative might be to store the negatives in a safety deposit box. But I don't know if that's any safer from fire and flooding... I suppose you'd have to use an airtight box within the safety deposit box to control humidity.

I wonder if there are any other off-site alternatives that are specifically tailored to archival media or film storage?

[Jim Cole]

I did a quick search and I think the "media" safes mentioned earlier might be able to keep film from getting ruined in a fire. They keep the interior below 125 degrees Fahrenheit and are rated for how many hours they can maintain that temperature in a fire. It looks like there are 1, 2 and 3 hour safes. They are fairly expensive. This probably won't help in a multi-day wildfire, but for an apartment in the city it might be a good on-site solution.

Dan,

I totally missed Toyon's reference to media safes while reading this thread. Thanks for pointing it out again. It definitely looks like what I need. A little research is in order.

Jim

[Ben Syverson]

"Fireproof" safes are rated in hours. That is, the number of hours a given safe can sit in about 1800°*F before giving out. Entry-level safes are rated for 30 minutes, and the price goes up exponentially as you add half-hours.

I've been looking into the same thing recently, and it's a little discouraging when you start looking at prices.

Then again, I don't flinch at buying a new laptop every three years, so maybe I should shrug this off as a relatively cheap one-time expense...