PDA

View Full Version : WP film and (Sheath) exact size examples for new sheaths



Andrew M
30-Jan-2009, 19:20
I am hoping anyone with Ilford, Wephoto or other brand film can take an exact measurement of their sheet film for me. I have heard that Ilford sometimes have some variances so I want to know what the largest examples are...Also anyone with a Full Plate sheath that can provide an exact measurement would be very helpful

To explain, I have older (but good condition) wooden book-form dry plate holders. up until now I have always just placed my film in just as if it was a glass dry plate and placed a sheet of glass, wooden board or cardboard (or a few different things tried over time) on top of the film and away I went.

I did it this way, because, well the first old plate camera I ever got was already set up in this fashion, with the boards cut and inside the holders, so naturally I assumed this was the correct way...I suppose it is, if it works. (Only in recent times have i started looking on the net, and see what others do--I was nearly better off in my blind blissful small world LOL)

However I recently got some Kodak Tmax 400 and it is smaller than I have had before. As a result it just manages to fall through my holders. The measurements on the box of the Tmax 400 says 6" 7/16 x 8" 7/16 and is said to be cut within 1/2000 of an inch but in actual fact it is 1/16 smaller again (161.9mm x 213.2mm) than the measurement on the box. if it was cut 1/16 bigger (1.5mm) it would just catch enough of the edge of the holder that it wouldn't fall through.

So, a long story I know, but by coincidence I happen to be about to get some new laser cut film sheaths made for 9x12 film (I wanted some more to what I have) and will be unfortunately getting more than I need because of the cost of setting up ect, and the firm has to order in the very thin sheeting, so I may as well use the whole sheet of steel or order any extra at the same time.

So I figure at the same time I may as well see if I can get them to make some sheaths for my whole plate film (hoping I don’t have to pay set up fees again but probably will have to, but at least I wont have to pay twice for ordering in extra of this sheet steel), with the view that then these can be used, even if a slightly loose fit with the Tmax 400, but also the other brands, albeit for them, a bit more snugly. Unless someone has some sheaths they don’t need--or if someone does have one perhaps they can measure it for me (exactly) so I can compare the measurements!

So far I am inclined to make the width measurement (A) 165mm (maybe 165.5mm) and the fold (B) will aim to be 3mm as that appears to be what my half plate and other sheaths use (thickness .3mm), although modern machines have difficulty with this small of a fold, so all I have spoken to have said anyway. As such it may result in size up to 3.5mm-4mm but the guy doing this for me says he thinks he can manage 3mm but just cant guarantee me up front; needs to experiment, adjust his machine and do by hand.

http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/kk67/retrotography/8x10_cut-1.gif

Oren Grad
30-Jan-2009, 20:30
Andrew, I have some Eastman WP film sheaths. I will try to dig one up over this weekend and make some measurements for you. Stay tuned...

Paul Bujak
30-Jan-2009, 20:37
Andrew,

I know it is not the same but I have some 4x5 sheaths (Kodak, I think) and the fold (B) dimension is 2 mm. At either end, the 4" side, the sheath is folded down (90 degrees) 1mm. I think this is to provide stiffness.

Hope this is a little bit helpful.

Paul

Andrew M
30-Jan-2009, 21:03
Thanks Paul, yes the bend of 90 degree does provide a measure of stiffness, but if yours are like my 9x12 sheaths this bend also provides the extra height needed to get the film on the same plane (distance) as what the glass plate was when placed in the metal holders. and the same as the GG screen, or at least within .3mm, the thickness of the metal.

I will likely add some strips of timber or something else to back of my WP sheaths if i get them made, to acheive an improved stiffness than they would otherwise have, but its not necessary as for the height situation in wooden book holders, like it is for the metal glass plate holders with the darkslide.

Thanks Oren, I look forward to it

Paul Bujak
31-Jan-2009, 14:22
Interestingly enough, my 4x5 sheaths fit into Kodak 5x7 to 4x5 reducer frames which, in turn, fit 5x7 glass plate holders. I guess this Rube Goldberg set-up was cheaper than getting new film holders if you were a plate user. Amazing what they did back then! ;)

I haven't tried them out yet to see if the film plane is correct.

Paul

Ole Tjugen
31-Jan-2009, 15:01
Paul, I have a 24x30cm camera with plate holders which contain inserts reducing the size from 24x30cm to 18x24cm to 10x15cm to 9x12cm to 6.5x9cm. One of the two holders contain 24x30-18x24-13x18-9x12-6.5x9 on both sides, the other one has the same but 24x30-18x24-10x15-9x12 on the other side.

Oren Grad
31-Jan-2009, 18:45
OK, I've got a film sheath labeled "No. 3 EASTMAN FILM SHEATH 6 1/2 x 8 1/2" in hand.

Width (your "A" measure) is 165mm. Length is 216mm. On both long sides, the folded-over lip extends just a hair shy of 5mm toward the center. On one of the narrow sides, there's a folded-over lip that extends 6mm toward the center. The very end of this lip is bent upward slightly. Along the other narrow side, the end from which film is loaded, there is no folded-over lip, but about 2mm of the edge of the holder is bent upward by 90 degrees to retain the film in place.

The sheath is more complex structurally than just a rectangle with edges bent over. If you were to flatten it out, the folded parts are actually tabs projecting from the rectangle. There are also a couple of finger cutouts from the edge of the sheath where you load the film. Finally, there's a pattern of shallow ridges in the body of the sheath, which appear as slight depressions from the film side.

I hope all that's useful - let me know if you have any more questions.

Oren Grad
31-Jan-2009, 18:49
Interestingly enough, my 4x5 sheaths fit into Kodak 5x7 to 4x5 reducer frames which, in turn, fit 5x7 glass plate holders. I guess this Rube Goldberg set-up was cheaper than getting new film holders if you were a plate user. Amazing what they did back then! ;)

I have some 5x7 glass plate holders with reducing adapters that accept 3.25x4.25 plates. You can fit 3.25x4.25 sheaths in the adapter where the plates are supposed to go.

Score another one for Mr. Goldberg... ;)

Andrew M
31-Jan-2009, 21:52
Thank you Oren, the detailed discription is most helpful. cheers

The 6mm fold on the short side, that has the slight upward turn of 2mm on the edge of that lip may not be able to be easily reproduced but obviously it is there to falcilitate easier loading and will probably work ok without it.

The tab shape is easy seeing how i am having them laser cut, the firm that will cut them said its no more difficult for curves or shapes to be made for the tabs.

Can you tell me how far in from the ends the tabs start, particularly on the short side. I am guessing it may (or may not) make it easier for the guy folding the tabs if there is enough clearance not to interfere with the fold on the long side.

I am not sure exactly where the finger cut outs are, but i am assuming it is on the 2mm piece bent up 90' . Are they about 24mm from the edge and about 10mm long/space. And only out of the 2mm bent up section? If so they are probably to provide clearance, for the little brass bits screwed to the inside of the darkslide, to prevent the darkslide from being pulled out completely

The ridges may be too difficult to reproduce, no doubt they add stiffness. I may have to come up with another way of providing stiffness. do they run length ways or across the short distance? Can you tell how thick the material is .3mm or .5mm?

So far the largest dimention for Ilford film that has been given to me is 163.5mm in width but was also said to be a tight fit (frustratingly) in what he said was an Eastman film sheath. LOL I wonder where people find these things, I have never noticed them anywhere (not that I have needed them before). If anyone has any (that are flat) and wants to sell them I am interested before I have some made.

Oren Grad
31-Jan-2009, 22:25
Andrew, I'll try to find time tomorrow to make some digisnaps of one of these sheaths. That should answer some of your questions and make it easier to discuss any others.

EDIT - I should add, looking back at your initial post: AFAIK, these sheaths were designed for use in later block-form plate holders, rather than earlier book-form holders. At least that's the only way I've seen them used, and the way I've used them. I mention that because it may not make sense to try to match the design too precisely - what matters will be the fit to your own plate holders. In any case, once you see some pictures you can figure out what aspects of the design can be usefully adapted for your purposes. More to follow...

Andrew M
1-Feb-2009, 01:19
thanks Oren, that will be great, i wanted to ask, but didnt want to put you to the trouble. much appreciated

i am not completly familar with the term block-form film holders, except that i thought they were generaly the type of holder that took film straight up!? not unlike or is it interchanable with DD slide film holders, or am i missing something i suspect?

sorry, but living in the backwoods, my termonology may not be what is common (or correct) among internet people

Oren Grad
1-Feb-2009, 12:48
Here are some pictures. Sorry they look so sickly tonally, but I fiddled with the curves so that you could see the structure of the sheath more clearly.

Block-form holders are the type we use today. During the early part of the 20th century, you could get both film and plate holders of this type. Book-form holders are an older design. I'm not especially knowledgeable about the really old stuff, but my understanding is that book-form holders were made for plates only. If you go here...

http://plate-camera.livejournal.com/

...and scroll down just a bit, you'll find posts with pictures of vintage block-form DDS holders and vintage book-form holders.

Take a look at the pictures and let me know what additional questions you have. I'm heading down to the darkroom for a while, but I'll check in later and can follow up as needed.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 15:32
Glad I saw this post.

Interesting, the film sheaths that came in some of my old plate holders are different.

They are labeled "No. 2 Eastman Film Sheath for 6 1/2 x 81/2 View Plate Holder . . . Note:-For use in Universal, R.O.C. and Premo Holders. . . ."

I don't have time to photograph them now, but will try to make some photos and measurements for you.

The only problem with these is that none of us have enough of them, regardless of the style. :)

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 15:58
Oh yeah, when I slide a sheet of WP HP5+ into one of my sheaths, they fit perfectly. I'll get the measurements later.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 22:27
Here are some photos of my film sheaths.

Pardon the poor quality.

These first two are of the film and backsides. The label is on the backside.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 22:33
These photos are "details" of both sides.

The first shows the film side. You can see that dimples and a channel have been punched into the sheath. I assume that the channel is for rigidity and to maintain the proper film depth (to make up for the absence of the plate). I assume the dimples are for the latter purpose. It also shows the film channel and the finger notch.

The second shows the reverse side of the channel and dimples, and that the metal is rolled over on the ends, probably to make a nice smooth surface.

the third shows the film channel.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 22:37
Here are the measurements:

Length = 215mm
Width = 165mm
Notches = 25mm at the wide end (discounting the slightly wider opening at the ends and the narrowing as it bottoms out)
Film channel (B dimension) = 4mm
Depth of dimples and channels = 2mm

Oren Grad
1-Feb-2009, 22:41
Well, that's cool - I've never seen that style before. I wonder what the "No. 1" looked like.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 22:57
Oren,

My bet is your style is a bit stiffer than mine. Mine are pretty "twisty."

The film channels in yours are longer too. Yours is probably a later (or perhaps competing) design.

Oren Grad
1-Feb-2009, 23:03
Afraid my No. 3's are pretty dainty too - they bend pretty easily. It's not a problem if one keeps them in the holders, but kept apart from a holder they need to be handled carefully.

David Karp
1-Feb-2009, 23:29
"OK, I've got a film sheath labeled "No. 3 EASTMAN FILM SHEATH 6 1/2 x 8 1/2" in hand."

Oops. I missed that part. I think it is a safe bet that your No. 3s came after my No. 2s! :)

Andrew M
2-Feb-2009, 07:03
Thanks for posting the pictures Oren and David, they are very interesting to see..So different in many respects but also overall many similarities. Its curious how the 'lip' or film channel (as we have been calling it) on yours David only runs down half the length of the side. It perhaps suggests yours are designed to load from the front. Great to see these different sheaths though, they are quite intricate in their own way!

The overall size seems to be consistent and both would fit my holders pretty snugly as well, so I will go with that size I think. Not sure if the smaller Kodak film that will not fit snugly (loose) in these film sheaths is likely to cause a problem though!? I don’t suppose it will as movement isn’t likely to happen while the film is being exposed, even if it does move some while the darkslide is closed I cant imagine that will cause a problem.

David can you check your Ilford film size? No wider than 163.5mm?

One other option I have been considering is making (or having made) a new modern WP back to accept modern film holders...this idea came about largely because I am interested in having an 8x8 format back made, lingering cravings for a square format from years of Hasselblad abuse;) so I wonder if their is a camera maker that might be able to make the back and holders for me.

Someone has generously offered me some WP Chamonix holders as well if they are of use to me (if I can make them fit my back), curiously it appears they are the same width and also appear to have the same T distance as mine. Not sure about the length yet and one problem to make them fit my TP back is my holders have a ridge down each side edge (that’s what holds them to the back, this ridge slides behind a groove in the back), but I think that could be added to the Chamonix holders without too much difficulty.

Obviously the later is a more expensive option, and I am not sure I will go that way (would definitely like to have a back and holders made for the 8x8 format though) but is at least worth considering for the convenience of using the modern holders, mainly no darkslide flapping around, smoother pulling of the darkslide, not as important are the lesser considerations of weight and perhaps they keep the film more perfectly flat in the modern holders--not that I have had trouble simply trapping the film behind a sheet of glass.

David Karp
2-Feb-2009, 12:52
Andrew,

I will measure my HP5+, but will not be able to do it tonight. I will be working late and will not be home until 11:00 p.m. or so. Will do my best to do it on Tuesday.

David Karp
3-Feb-2009, 23:26
Hi Andrew,

The HP5+ is 163 - 163.5mm wide. I am just using a ruler, so it is hard to be super precise.

damiendemolder
6-Feb-2009, 02:01
Andrew - or anyone actually - what sort of results did you get loading film without the sheaths? I'm using full plate wooden DDS for glass plate, and want to try using 6.6x8.5in film in them. I have black card to go between the film and the spring, but I'm not sure how close to the correct plane of focus this will get me. I've been using b/w paper (Ilford Multigrade Pearl) so far, but obviously thats a bit thicker and stiffer. Do you think I can get away just loading the film with no sheath?

Andrew M
6-Feb-2009, 06:48
Perfectly good results Damien, I am not sure if it is as easy using DDS holders, but using the bookform holders it is quite straight forward. open the holder, like a book, place the film in first, Ilford or home cut film sits on the ridges/shelf around the edge of the holder, and then place a sheet of glass (or glass subsitute) trapping the film in place. Using this method the film is in exactly the same place (plane of focus) as dry plate film. I would of simply continued to do it this way except the Tmax film is cut smaller and falls through. Hence my reason for sheaths now. I havnt seen up close how the DDS dry plate holders load glass plate film so I am not sure exactly if this would work the same...but it stands to reason that glass must be able to be loaded into them so i suspect a simular method should work. Just placing film in without board or backing of some kind around 2mm (thickness of glass plate film) would not be a good idea.

damiendemolder
6-Feb-2009, 06:58
Thanks Andrew

I hadn't thought to use glass, but I guess it makes perfect sense. I'll be off to the glaziers on Saturday then. Feeling much happier now!