Moving between mode's question

[bob carnie]

I am frequently moving between RGB >LAB>RGB,
I am pretty confident with my moves and as such have been flattening each layer as I move through an image.
Lately I have been expanding my moves/adjustments and my confidence level is sometimes challenged . Is there a way of keeping a history between moves/adjustments that you can go back to beginning moves/adjustments and slightly modify or alter.
Is it just a matter of not flattening when you move between modes and keep your layers intact?

[nathanm]

Why are you doing all the mode conversions?

You could make snapshots, expand your History\undo steps or make duplicates.

[bob carnie]

Why are you doing all the mode conversions?

You could make snapshots, expand your History\undo steps or make duplicates.

[bob carnie]

Specific reasons for mode changes that I have found to clearly improve images that I am working with, but I am asking specifically how can I keep a single history active, to go back to early steps , lets say in RGB after I have moved to LAB?
If I do all my work in one mode I see no problem adjusting moves, but to date I have not been able to do this working in multiple modes. To date I will go back to specific adjustments that have been saved and then move forward from this point.

I have been saving working duplicate files as I go along an image, but maybe I am too thick to see how to keep one full history active that includes moves into LAB and even CMYK with the ability to go into specific layers and make adjustments that then affect the whole file.

Would keeping RGB duplicates, LAB duplicates and even CMYK duplicates on record and then making adjustment corrections in the specific layer I want to change, then putting them on top of each other and re flattening to make a adjusted print file work??

[nathanm]

The short answer is no, it's not possible to go back in history after you change color modes. Multiple documents would be the only way to do it. I can't say for certain without seeing what you're doing exactly, but in my opinion it sounds like an inefficient process. Usually there are means to do what you want to do within a single color space. But like I said, it's difficult to say without seeing your workflow in action.

[Ralph Barker]

Wouldn't it be better to move your LAB to Rio Rancho? (LOL)

[bob carnie]

Ralph

I would love to, very cold up here right now. But it would be one hell of a move.
I may be passing by your area this year so we should get together , hope your well.

Bob


Wouldn't it be better to move your LAB to Rio Rancho? (LOL)

[bob carnie]

Thanks for your input, but I really like my workflow , but this seems to be a snag that I would like to solve.
Regarding single workspace, I find RGB>LAB>RGB> printer a very effective and efficient workflow for my work. I cannot imagine working in a single mode and getting the results on paper that I am seeing.
But I am sure everyone has their preferred method of working , with PS and Lightroom the variables are tremendous and daunting.



The short answer is no, it's not possible to go back in history after you change color modes. Multiple documents would be the only way to do it. I can't say for certain without seeing what you're doing exactly, but in my opinion it sounds like an inefficient process. Usually there are means to do what you want to do within a single color space. But like I said, it's difficult to say without seeing your workflow in action.

[dwhistance]

Have you tried using something like the Curvemeister plug-in which allows you to make adjustments in LAB and other colour spaces whilst remaining in RGB? I've not used it myself but have seen it recommended by many others. Whether it will allow you to retain the full history I don't know but there is a demo version on their site (http://www.curvemeister.com) so it should be easy to find out.

David Whistance

[Stephen Best]

I am frequently moving between RGB >LAB>RGB,
I am pretty confident with my moves and as such have been flattening each layer as I move through an image.
Lately I have been expanding my moves/adjustments and my confidence level is sometimes challenged . Is there a way of keeping a history between moves/adjustments that you can go back to beginning moves/adjustments and slightly modify or alter.
Is it just a matter of not flattening when you move between modes and keep your layers intact?

Lab is intended for quick & dirty changes to an image, namely in Margulis' thinking where you have a short amount of time to work on an image and knock it into shape before moving onto the next. Most of what you're trying to achieve with Lab can be done more elegantly with Lobster (http://www.freegamma.com/). This stays in the same colour space throughout so you'll retain the layer stack, history etc.

I did a brief write-up on Lobster 2.0 with some info to get people started:

http://www.macquarieeditions.com.au/?p=88

[Greg Miller]

Using a curve layer with blending mode set to "luminosity" achieves much the same results as a change to LAB and adjusting L. This avoids affecting Hue or Saturation.

[Stephen Best]

Using a curve layer with blending mode set to "luminosity" achieves much the same results as a change to LAB and adjusting L. This avoids affecting Hue or Saturation.

Hue is retained in luminosity blends, but a curve set to luminosity blend mode is NOT the same as applying the same curve to the luminosity of the original. Only the latter will retain the luminosity relationships of the original's colours. More info (with a simple test at the bottom):

http://www.alternativephotoshop.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12

[nathanm]

Ahh, thank you for mentioning Lobster. I couldn't remember the name of the software that I downloaded awhile back for the life of me, and that was it!

[Tyler Boley]

Hue is retained in luminosity blends, but a curve set to luminosity blend mode is NOT the same as applying the same curve to the luminosity of the original. Only the latter will retain the luminosity relationships of the original's colours. More info (with a simple test at the bottom):

http://www.alternativephotoshop.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12

which brings us to the issue of the product mentioned on that site, which will allow LAB based editing on RGB images. Bob has no need, I'm sure, for any criticism of his methods, but there are those who consider multiple mode conversions in and out of LAB dangerously lossy. So the plugin may be of interest. For color users, USM on the L channel is also worth learning. For lack of a better method, I USM, then undo, the "fade" back in using Luminosity mode.
Tyler

[bob carnie]

Thanks for all the suggestions.

I did download lobster and to be honest have not tried it yet but I definately will and at that point will be asking questions of you Stephen .

Since the recommondation of Lobster I spent two complete sessions with Dan , in Chicago and Toronto, for those who have not tried a Margulis workshop, they can be extremely difficult. I have seen students walk away after the first day in disgust.
His methods of teaching remind me of my toughest photographic teachers.
I must say that if I ever become as adapt as Dan Margulis in PS I will thank my lucky stars. He is without a doubt the leader in moving around PS that I have seen or had the pleasure of attending a course with.
I have now attended four sessions with him over the last couple of years and each time I walk away with much more respect. I wish he would continue with his courses but I think he is deciding to call it quits. For example in all his teaching he does not reccomend any plugins and while you are working using any plugin help is not allowed.

Lobster does sound a workflow I am interested in but my ultimate goal is to make BW film separations on my Lambda for alternative printing which includes three colour and a black detail film. Therefore my interest in the different modes and their potential applications.

As I out put each day onto various stocks, RA4 (glossy/matt) and Inkjet I can without a doubt say that moving between modes is not affecting image negatively to the visual eye at 4ft x 6ft ,( I have made a point of testing this on numerous occasions and making sure good eyes beyond my own look for defects. I am sure there are those here who mathematically can prove me wrong, but seeing is believing and I make a lot of prints in any given year.

There are things that Dan teaches in LAB that go way beyond simple A B curve adjustments.

His methods of sharpening and protection of the image with Apply Image Masks are absolutely astounding and have improved all images that are moved into LAB. As well Dans use of the 10 channels , in fact double with invert , reminds me of my days doing hand photomontage with multiple masks for contrast, colour and sharpness.
Photomontage was one of the defining factors of Photoshop for those who remember spending hours over a light table with an thousands of an inch ruler.
I am now considering a separate monitor to only show the 20 channels and make them active for each image I work on. Not sure if this will be of advantage but after trying some of his protection moves I think so.

It is true that one can quickly go overboard with LAB adjustments, but thats the trick, learning how to not go to far, protecting moves , and ultimately print the images and see if indeed one has gone to far or in fact improved the image beyond what a single mode can do.

My preference is to work on the file by looking at the channels , in black and white and building up the character of the image that way.
With sharpening, Highlight Shadow , I prefer the L channel and do use masks to prevent halo's which are inherent in other sharpening methods.

Keeping a huge layer stack active is really not my desired way of working as in enlarger printing , I do not keep test strips and absolutely move forward in printmaking without looking back.
But today I am working on a particular series for a client who does not arrive until the weekend and having the possibility of moving backwards would be a good thing, in case he sees the test prints and wants to change a particular feel of the print I have introduced.

I see this a minor irritation right now and I am hoping that the Adobe folks come up with a solution as right now it is a pain .

I too have used the fade back method in RGB, but for now am very happy going into the L channel and actually do two sharpenings, and selectively sharpen areas more or less depending upon the image. For this I love seeing the image detail only , so that I can put down sharpening where I want.

anyways for now I will continue as is, and give Lobster a try with a bunch of test images that I use when trying new tricks.