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Michael Kadillak
18-Jun-2001, 00:15
Anyone try FP4 and HP5 with Kodak Xtol developer? The manufacturers literature l ists several other Kodak developers but not Xtol. Either the results were unacce ptable or it is a combination that was just overlooked. I would rather consult t he forum than dive into the unknown.

Many thanks

John Hicks
18-Jun-2001, 02:17
Xtol 1:1 works ok with HP5+, giving a bit more acutance and somewhat more graini ness than D-76/ID-11 1:1 for a gain of 1/3 stop speed.

IMHO there's more loss than gain.

William D. Lester
18-Jun-2001, 09:13
I have used Xtol with both FP4 and HP5. I have also stopped using it because of it's unreliability. I have had 3 failures also. I have to agree that it is a nice developer when it works. I felt that agitation was aproblem with Xtol and FP4. I got uneven development with both roll film and sheet film. I later read that Iford specifically recommends not to prewet as it removes a wetting agent built in to the emulsion. Anyway, I also have gone back to ID-11 with these films and had excellent and reliable results.

kthompson
18-Jun-2001, 14:39
I run both in a deep tank line set up with XTOL, and think they look great...it seems to me that alot of the trouble with XTOL comes from higher dilutions, and may be associated with pH and specific gravity of the final mix. But, in my experiences with it in the tank, it's a very long lasting & stable replenished developer. I don't know what you're set up is like, but you can get times for Ilford films in Xtol off the Kodak pro site, although you may have to look at the deeptank spec sheets.

byang
19-Aug-2012, 19:48
I've been using Xtol with PAN+, FP4+, HP5+ and other films. I never had a problem with xtol stock, 1+1 or 1+2. I worked at a photo lab that uses xtol and they never had a problem. From what I heard when I was at the lab is that xtol fails when it is not mixed properly. You have to follow the instructions exactly. You don't want to mix to fast and mix are into the chemistry and don't use hot water to try to speed things up. You have to take your time when mixing xtol be patrician and you will have rewarding results.

Brian C. Miller
19-Aug-2012, 20:07
(Old thread alert)

Welcome to the board, byang! Yes, I'm an Xtol user, too. The old 1L packets had problems with sealing, but the 5L have been good for me. I'm glad it has a long shelf life, as it can take some time for me to work through over a gallon of developer. I mix it up and store it in 1L bottles in the fridge. I've never had a problem with it.

Peter De Smidt
19-Aug-2012, 21:48
I've been using Xtol 1 + 2 since it came out without any problems. I always use the 5L packets.

Cor
20-Aug-2012, 06:16
(Old thread alert)
I mix it up and store it in 1L bottles in the fridge. I've never had a problem with it.

Brian,

I too mix the 5 ltr batches, and store them in 1ltr glass bottles in the fridge. I even go into the trouble to aliquot the stock when I open a fresh bottle (either 150ml or 250 ml) to smaller bottles and fill them to the brim with distilled water. (to be used as 1+1 either 300ml (35mm and 4*5) or 500ml (120 and 4*5).

Lately with my most fresh stock I start to notice a white fluffy white precipitate, which does not go into solution any more, so I filter off that stuff, which is a bit of a nuisance, but until now the developer has not failed on me although the precipitate is bugging me a bit. I use laboratory pure water and follow the mixing directions.

Best,

Cor

Henry Ambrose
20-Aug-2012, 06:43
Revival of a 10 year old topic and problem. Xtol was touted as robust and able to be used in water most anywhere worldwide without problems. It was supposed to be able to be used 1:3. It was a new universal developer of higher quality able to stand use in less than ideal conditions. Then apparently Kodak screwed with the original formula - and the problems began.

Very sensitive to iron in the water and other imperfections - very different from what Kodak was saying.

Not to be used very diluted - very different from what Kodak was saying and put in print in the first instructions.

Very sensitive to how you even mix it? Way different from what Kodak said.

Some of us are careful darkroom workers - used to mixing our own chemistry down to tenths of a gram - and you think we can't control water temperature and mixing for a comercial developer?

Failures with the 5 litre packets - Three different times. Go back and do some research and you find out why a number stopped using Xtol even with great results when it worked. The stiff turned out to be the chemical equivalent of Windows computer operating systems.

Is this your direct personal experience or just a re-hash of readings from the internet?
Many have had entirely positive experiences with Xtol and have been using it for years and years.
Its not that hard to follow directions to mix and use Xtol successfully.

Andrew O'Neill
20-Aug-2012, 07:53
I've used Xtol on and off (with HP5 and FP4) since it was introduced and never had problems with it. I use it straight, and diluted up to 1:3. Michael, are you still using Xtol after all these years?

Sal Santamaura
20-Aug-2012, 08:24
...Xtol was...supposed to be able to be used 1:3...I regularly process Delta 100 sheets in XTOL 1:3 with wonderful results. In an Expert drum on a Jobo CPP-2 at approximately 45 rpm, using a 5-minute pre-soak, I get excellent negatives developing for 9 minutes 15 seconds at 75 degrees F. This also offers the option to develop for less time at high ambient temperatures without needing ice or a water chiller.


...Very sensitive to iron in the water and other imperfections...I mix XTOL using distilled water. Not water labeled "for distilled water uses" that was really just processed via reverse osmosis, but bottles marked "prepared by steam distillation." I don't know whether I'm going overboard but, since the water is dirt cheap compared to everything else related to large format photography supplies, that's what I do.


...Failures with the 5 litre packets - Three different times...That's old news. After mixing 5 liters of XTOL stock solution, I decant it into 20 250-ml glass bottles with teflon-lined caps.


http://www.capitolscientific.com/estylez_item.aspx?item=E1214-10

I've kept it for up to one year that way with results indistinguishable from when freshly mixed. A slight bit of white, filimentary precipitate does appear after a while, but simply pouring through a standard #2 coffee filter


http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brew-Rite-2-Cone-Coffee-Filter-100ct/14968035

inside a funnel


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/40127-REG/Paterson_PTP306_Funnel_4_1_4.html

eliminates that.

Unlike many other developers, XTOL requires only 100 ml of concentrate per 80 square inches of film. Therefore, using a full 250-ml bottle enables developing five 5x7 sheets in a Jobo 3005 when diluted 1+3. At the same dilution, it can process 3 whole plate or 2 8x10 sheets. If interested in maximizing quantity of sheets per Jobo run, diluting 1+1.5 enables 5 whole plate sheets in a 3005 or 4 8x10 sheets in a 3004.


...The stiff turned out to be the chemical equivalent of Windows computer operating systems.Indeed, I've never had a problem with a Windows operating system and never a problem with XTOL. Both are fine products.

Five months ago, being concerned about ongoing availability in light of Kodak's Chapter 11 status, I communicated with Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadzki, the retirees who were responsible for XTOL's product development. They kindly met, researched my questions and, although "unable to offer any guarantees," said they "saw no reason why my proposed approach wouldn't work." I then purchased 40 5-liter packages of XTOL for long term storage. They've been placed in some large anti-static zip-lock bags I had; the bags are a laminate of polyester and aluminum. Squeezing out as much excess air as possible, I zipped the bags closed to provide a redundant barrier against oxygen and moisture. Stored at cool room temperature per Dick and Silvia's suggestion, given how much film I shoot each year and how long the mixed concentrate lasts, this cache should provide sufficient developer for the rest of my lifetime.

If I accidentally live longer than actuarial tables and my family history predict, scratch mixing something from a formula will still be an option, but the numerous benefits of XTOL will have been enjoyed until then. :)

Cletus
20-Aug-2012, 12:20
Xtol and Adonal (New Rodinol) is all I ever use. Nary a problem. Even tray dev for 4x5 negs, and roll film is fine with good agitation. Store FS in full Nalgene bottles and lasts for over a year. I always prewash to get rid of antihalation and haven't had uneven development issues with good practice and consistent methods. I see no reason to use anything else. Fil
Is HP5 and FP4.

Sal Santamaura
20-Aug-2012, 12:29
...mine was a personal experience...Yes, it happened and is not repeating something I heard...Wasn't your personal experience well over a decade ago, like around the time of post #2 in this thread? Aren't many of the "readings from the Internet" that Henry referred to posts by you knocking XTOL? With proper mixing and storage of today's XTOL, is any of that relevant?

Cor
21-Aug-2012, 00:00
I've kept it for up to one year that way with results indistinguishable from when freshly mixed. A slight bit of white, filimentary precipitate does appear after a while, but simply pouring through a standard #2 coffee filter


http://www.walmart.com/ip/Brew-Rite-2-Cone-Coffee-Filter-100ct/14968035

inside a funnel


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/40127-REG/Paterson_PTP306_Funnel_4_1_4.html

eliminates that.




Thanks Sal, for confirming my exact experience with the white precipitate, it is reassuring that I am not the only one experiencing this, and more importantly: that it has no effect on the working of Xtol!

best,

Cor

Sal Santamaura
21-Aug-2012, 09:03
...With proper mixing and storage of today's XTOL, is any of that relevant?Bold added for emphasis.


...it is relevant in that it happened. Kodak may well have all the problems sorted out now but that does not change the past...If the problems are sorted out now and, especially, if one mixes and stores as I described, it doesn't seem at all relevant.

While many of us are frustrated with the "Yellow Peril" (as you've frequently described Kodak), discouraging others from using a developer that offers so many advantages while it's still available is negativity without purpose. I strongly support Ilford, purchasing a lot of its products and recommending them to others, but Ilford doesn't offer an XTOL work-alike developer. If it did, I'd buy it instead of stockpiling XTOL. Especially since I don't expect Kodak to exist by this time next year.

spacegoose
21-Aug-2012, 09:33
I have better luck with D-76 1:1 and HP5+. For some reason when I use XTOL the grain (among other things) is usually not to my liking. I also dislike the mixing regimen and package size of XTOL.

My lab (LTI Lightside) uses XTOL for all their B&W jobs which is probably why I think twice before giving them B&W.

I've occasionally seen wonderful results elsewhere with XTOL but have not normally been able to achieve them myself.

LTI's use of XTOL while competent convinces me to do it myself with D-76 more often than not.

I also like TMAX RS for TMY & Efke and Rodinal for Ilford Delta & Foma sometimes. HC110 and XTOL less so.

LaurentB
21-Aug-2012, 11:22
Five months ago, being concerned about ongoing availability in light of Kodak's Chapter 11 status, I communicated with Dick Dickerson and Silvia Zawadzki, the retirees who were responsible for XTOL's product development. They kindly met, researched my questions and, although "unable to offer any guarantees," said they "saw no reason why my proposed approach wouldn't work." I then purchased 40 5-liter packages of XTOL for long term storage. They've been placed in some large anti-static zip-lock bags I had; the bags are a laminate of polyester and aluminum. Squeezing out as much excess air as possible, I zipped the bags closed to provide a redundant barrier against oxygen and moisture. Stored at cool room temperature per Dick and Silvia's suggestion, given how much film I shoot each year and how long the mixed concentrate lasts, this cache should provide sufficient developer for the rest of my lifetime.

If I accidentally live longer than actuarial tables and my family history predict, scratch mixing something from a formula will still be an option, but the numerous benefits of XTOL will have been enjoyed until then. :)

IF this can help, I recently used some VERY expired XTol "kit" (the 5 liter version, which was about 10 years older than expected). It was a bargain and I got it while buying Rodinal so I gave it a try. One pack was unusable ("A" part a solid block), the other ones gave me no trouble. So I guess proper storage of the recent packs (mine was packaged in a kind of paper+aluminium foil) should be OK for many tears.

OF COURSE I run tests before using such old stock.