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rguinter
7-Jan-2009, 19:53
Greetings. I just joined this list. I do 4x5 inch sheet film and medium format panoramics. I have a question about film storage that maybe someone could help me with. I'm scratching my head. I recently bought a 50-sheet box of Kodak Technical Pan via email from a vender. Turns out he vacuum packed the film when he purchased it (perhaps as much as 2-3 years ago) under heavy vacuum which crushed the bottom of the box. Bottom is pushed in about 3/4-inch. Evidently it was stored like this for many months (maybe years) and the bottom of the box now looks as if it was stepped on. Atmospheric pressure just did its thing. Does anyone with more experience than me think this could have damaged the film inside? I'm wondering if I should return it for a refund. Frankly I've never seen this before and wonder if it really was a proper storage technique for new film. Best regards. Bob rguinter@yahoo.com

seawolf66
7-Jan-2009, 20:36
I got a box FP-4 just same way and All is fine for , Remember with out air in there ,The has less chance of age-ing in My Thoughts !

BradS
7-Jan-2009, 20:44
I don't know about tech-pan but, all current Kodak sheet film stock is packaged in an inner, light tight envelope. The box is just so much window dressing.

Don't worry. I think it would have suffered more damage had it been stored in the freezer (a practice that baffles me).

rguinter
8-Jan-2009, 03:45
I'm most concerned about the physical damage to the box and the compression forces that would have transfered to the contents over time from heavy vacuum. Like an unopened box that comes damaged in the mail one wonders if the contents were affected. This box looks about the same as if it had been stored with a bowling ball resting on it. My concern is all the 50-sheets had to be squashed together tightly for the duration of storage which was in a deep freeze. Any additional thoughts? Bob

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 09:56
like I said above. I'd be more concerned about it having been frozen. I would never buy film that had been stored in the freezer for any period of time.

Steve Gledhill
8-Jan-2009, 10:24
like I said above. I'd be more concerned about it having been frozen. I would never buy film that had been stored in the freezer for any period of time.

I've only ever read that freezing film is ok though I have no personal experience of using previously frozen film. I do however have some sheets in the freezer for future use. This is the first I've seen anything that says otherwise. Please can you elaborate on your concerns. Thanks.

Bjorn Nilsson
8-Jan-2009, 11:36
Freezing film is a "common standard" for improving on the longevity of the film. Most of the pro camera/film shops I've seen stores/displays their film in glass door freezers, especially the color film. Most professionals used to order a large quantity from a single emulsion of chrome film and freeze it, so they only had to calibrate for that particular run once. Of course care have to be taken so that there is no moisture on the film surface when freezing it. (I.e. sealed packages of some sort, depending upon format etc.) This practice was a neccessity (sp?) for coping with emulsion differences back in the film days. (Nowadays it's more a matter of upgrading software and hardware. :( )
B/w film have much better longevity to start with and "best before" dates are years ahead as compared to 4-6 months with professional chrome film. So while b/w film have much less "issues" with change due to storage, it's still a fact that freezing will make the film fully acceptable long beyond it's best before date.

As for this tech-pan film, as long as the inner plastic bag isn't damaged, the film should be OK, but not primarily due to the vacuum packaging but more due to freezing.

Btw, Brad, why do you think freezing is such a bad thing for film? (Given sealed bags so that no moisture gets in contact with the film etc.) I had a look at the "Film storage" thread from July this year and:

That's what the bottom drawer in the 'fridge is for....FILM! :)
???

//Björn

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 12:38
Things do not freeze in the fridge. Big difference..

Bjorn Nilsson
8-Jan-2009, 13:07
Yes, but still, why is freezing such a bad thing? (Apart from the 25degC difference...) If you had a failure, what happened?

//Björn

Kevin Crisp
8-Jan-2009, 13:20
I've been freezing film for 35 years, and not just sealed boxes. If the box is open I put it in a plastic bag. I always let it thaw before I open it. I've never had a problem. So what is the downside of this?

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 13:48
It is real simple. Read the manufacturers' data sheets. They all say to store film in a cool dry place. NOT a feezing cold place. People seem to assume that if cool is good, freezing must be better. I don't. Film retailers may have the film in a fridge - never have I seen a retailer store film for sale in a freezer not once. Further, Ilford's B&W film is almost never seen in a fridge - even when the Kodak B&W film is in the fride. I suspect that this is due to the fact that the Ilford package is not airtight - Ilford does not seal the inner plastic bag containing the film (I'm talking about sheet film obviously). Further, Kodak doesn't freeze their finished goods. I dare say none of the other major film mfgrs do either. Freezing may be OK but, it is not helping and is probably worse than simply 'cool' for many reasons. The optimum is not always at the extreme. In fact, the optimal is often found away from the extreme.

Steve Gledhill
8-Jan-2009, 15:39
It is real simple. Read the manufacturers' data sheets. They all say to store film in a cool dry place. NOT a feezing cold place. People seem to assume that if cool is good, freezing must be better. I don't. Film retailers may have the film in a fridge - never have I seen a retailer store film for sale in a freezer not once. Further, Ilford's B&W film is almost never seen in a fridge - even when the Kodak B&W film is in the fride. I suspect that this is due to the fact that the Ilford package is not airtight - Ilford does not seal the inner plastic bag containing the film (I'm talking about sheet film obviously). Further, Kodak doesn't freeze their finished goods. I dare say none of the other major film mfgrs do either. Freezing may be OK but, it is not helping and is probably worse than simply 'cool' for many reasons. The optimum is not always at the extreme. In fact, the optimal is often found away from the extreme.

Thanks BradS - so, your view isn't based on personal bad experience or knowledge. I guess I'll take comfort from the reports by all others which give positve feedback on freezing - until I find out differently!

h2oman
8-Jan-2009, 15:41
"People seem to assume that if cool is good, freezing must be better."

Some of us don't assume that at all, but just have more room in our freezers than in our refrigerators!

Eric James
8-Jan-2009, 16:37
Things do not freeze in the fridge. Big difference..

What is it about film that is affected by water's state change?

Kevin Crisp
8-Jan-2009, 16:38
Brad: And if I followed the instructions I would always use it by the expiration date. The suggestion about cool, dark storage is to make sure that the film is still good by the date on the box. If you store it in a 90 degree F darkroom on the shelf (mine during the summer when the AC isn't on) then you won't make the date on the box. I have frozen Ilford product for years with no ill effects.

Refrigeration certainly extends the date on the box, and with black and white film, it extends it for many, many years. Other than condensation from not allowing the film to warm up (a risk with refrigerated film as well) I am not seeing why freezing it would be a bad thing. You say this is "probably worse" "for many reasons" but you provide none.

From John Sexton's newsletter re: the demise of Readyloaded TMAX:

We plan to "stock up" on the T-Max 100 film and will freeze a supply, which we will use in the coming years.

willwilson
8-Jan-2009, 17:44
It's simple science at work here, cold things slow down because they have less energy.

Anybody like strawberries? I do. But the darn things go bad so fast...enter the almighty freezer and viola strawberries year round from my garden.

It's the same with film only its takes film longer to "go bad," so this means that freezing would in turn further enhance a film's longevity.

The moisture thing is easy too. You don't want your film to get wet before processing, so be careful after you take it out of the fridge/freezer and make sure you are storing it in an adequate airtight bag.

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 18:15
It's simple science at work here, cold things slow down because they have less energy.

Anybody like strawberries? I do. But the darn things go bad so fast...enter the almighty freezer and viola strawberries year round from my garden.

It's the same with film only its takes film longer to "go bad," so this means that freezing would in turn further enhance a film's longevity.

The moisture thing is easy too. You don't want your film to get wet before processing, so be careful after you take it out of the fridge/freezer and make sure you are storing it in an adequate airtight bag.

Will, That's not science. It is only the first step - Form a Hypothesis. You haven't done science until you conduct an experiment to gather evidence to either support or reject your hypothesis. Strawberries keep longer in the fridge (and longer still in the freezer) because the bacteria that makes 'em rot is less active when cold. But other nasty things can happen to them to ruin them in the freezer...so called "Freezer Burn" comes to mind.

For example, I can play the same game...
Anybody ever put a coffee cup full of water in the freezer and leave it there over night? I have, the coffee cup breaks - every time...therefore, I could form the hypothesis that putting film in the freezer harms it in some way. No science yet.


Brad: And if I followed the instructions I would always use it by the expiration date. The suggestion about cool, dark storage is to make sure that the film is still good by the date on the box. If you store it in a 90 degree F darkroom on the shelf (mine during the summer when the AC isn't on) then you won't make the date on the box. I have frozen Ilford product for years with no ill effects.

Refrigeration certainly extends the date on the box, and with black and white film, it extends it for many, many years. Other than condensation from not allowing the film to warm up (a risk with refrigerated film as well) I am not seeing why freezing it would be a bad thing. You say this is "probably worse" "for many reasons" but you provide none.

From John Sexton's newsletter re: the demise of Readyloaded TMAX:

We plan to "stock up" on the T-Max 100 film and will freeze a supply, which we will use in the coming years.

Here too...you haven't one scrap of evidence to support your hypothesis. Only specific anecdotes. So what if John Sexton says he's gonna freeze his film...since when is he the source of all knowlege? Has he done any real experiments or, is he also operating on logic alone. Maybe he's just using the word "freeze" figuratively....who knows?




Everyone: I realize that my opinion about film storage flys against Conventional Wisdom (look that one up)....but, so what? Neither of us has any evidence to support their position. I think feeezing is un-necessary at best and possibly harmful. It certainly is inconvenient. I haven't conducted any experiments either. Until somebody does, both sides of the discussion have only conjecture. I'm not ridiculing anybody for freezing film...don't give me shit about not freezing mine - OK?

The OP asked aboout some film he bought. I offered my honest opinion. I'm weird. I already know that.


Maybe Kodak has done the experiment...maybe, somebody should call the Kodak Tech line and ask. I'm good with the fridge and the bottom drawer of the china cabinet. Film lasts plenty long there for me. If you're concerned that you're not doing the absolute best thing...well...do something to find out what the very best thing to do is...but, don't give me hell for doing my thing...OK?

PenGun
8-Jan-2009, 18:53
Just a quick search and I find out Kodak recommends I let my 50 sheet boxes of film sit for 3 hours when bought up from -18 C. No mention of any problems.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/e30/e30Contents.shtml

It's a PDF

rguinter
8-Jan-2009, 19:59
Somehow I think this thread got off the track. When I started it I hoped that some knowledgeable individuals would comment on their experiences with damaged sheet film boxes. The issue I have is not temperature. Freezing film is a standard practice and not much of an issue for discussion. It is good for film based on the concepts of chemistry 101. The rate of chemical reactions is related to temperature and slows down when temperatures decrease... the basic issue with film chemistry. Slow down the chemical reactions that degrade emulsions. But what about physical damage to sheet film boxes? Anyone have any experience with warped film or damaged emulsions when sheet films are compressed tightly together? Essentially the issue I wanted to explore. My issue is vauum packing which compresses everything inside the package under 14.7 psi. And this could be similar to storage of a film box with a bowling ball on top of it. Anyone with experience here could really help me out. Many thanks. Bob rguinter@yahoo.com

Kevin Crisp
8-Jan-2009, 21:12
Brad: "Neither of us has any evidence to support our position." I guess my only "scrap of evidence" is 37 years of using film that has been in and out of the freezer. With no problems. And on your side, we have your dogmatic and forcefully expressed opinion based, apparently, on nothing. You have never actually tried it and have never, naturally, had a problem with it. I assume that all experience is mere inconsequential anecdote until it is in your hands. But thank you for your thoughts on the scientific method and your theory about freezer burn possibly applying to film in a sealed box. I guess salmonella should be another thing we should all be concerned about if we don't follow, to the letter, the instructions in The Darkroom Cookbook. PS: With your coffee cup difficulties, try a cup with tapered sides. Let me know how it comes out.

RGuinter: So let's get back to your question...I think the film will be fine. The film in a factory box is packed nice and tight and held that way by what I assume is Kodak's usual sealed foil/plastic opaque bag. (I have only used that film in rolls.) The truth is, you could put a bowling bowl on top of a full box and the film would still be fine, the box will just be squashed into contact with what is essentially a slab of film. In direct contact with the film is soft plastic that won't scratch it. Make sure the box is still light tight. If it is the usual Kodak inner bag, even some leakage would be OK until you tear the bag open and start using it.

I have to wonder if vacuum sealing really explains the condition of the box, however, as opposed to mechanical compression or some prior water damage. (Which still would be unlikely to affect the film in the inner bag.) The outer Kodak box in not air tight, being sealed on the two short sides, not the two long sides. (It it was air tight, they wouldn't need the inner bag.) So if I put a "sealed" (not really sealed, I mean in the condition as it comes new from the factory) box in a vacuum chamber and suck the air out, it shouldn't collapse, right? The inner sealed bag, now in lower pressure, would expand, right? Just like taking a sealed bag of chips to the mountains makes for a big puffy bag? To get the box to crush you would somehow have to take the atmosphere out of the inside of the box, with the box sealed, so that higher surrounding pressure would crush the box.

Freezing or no freezing, film does eventually fog some due to radiation, but with slow film like you've got, that would take a long, long, long time. I am still using frozen 35mm Panatomic-X that expired in the 80's. It was and still is great with skin tones. What a lovely film.

Disclaimer for Brad: Paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 are based on deduction and opinion rather than on experiments conducted on crushed boxes of obsolete film, distorted by mechanical means or atmospheric decompression. The advice may or may not turn out to be correct, though hopefully the validity of the opinions expressed will become known if (or when) the film is exposed and developed.

CG
8-Jan-2009, 21:36
Get boxes from some generous soul and transfer your film to the new old better boxes. End of issue.

On freezing ... frozen is best for long term storage. Even a ten thousand word essay won't change that. (He winces as he remembers his own long winded rants...)

Kevin Crisp
8-Jan-2009, 22:20
Though the information probably has limited long term value, storing Polaroid instant film in a freezer will most definitely wreck it. There are liquids involved with that product.

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 23:28
... With your coffee cup difficulties, try a cup with tapered sides. Let me know how it comes out.


Kevin, It was an experiment - not a difficulty - and it so happens that the cup was tapered...and it did break. So, you see, logic and instinct do not always come to the correct answer.

And that really, is my point. You have stored your film in the freezer for 37 year without a problem...great. I have stored mine in the fridge and, once the package is opened, in the bottom drawer of the china cabinet, at room temp....also with "no problems". Granted, I've only been doing that for....twenty some odd years...still, it doesn't prove anything except that apparently, either place is acceptable. So, perhaps, one should be free to choose either based upon some other criteria...like which place has more space, which place is less of a hassle, which method presents less risk, etc....

Let's not pretend however, that either has superior knowledge on the matter. I'm not being dogmatic. I'm challenging the "Conventional Wisdom" (did you look that up?)

To anybody who says, either the fridge, the freezer or the front porch is "The BEST Place" to store film...I say, "PROVE IT". I'd like to see some empirical data from a carefully designed experiment....not anecdotes, not expert witnesses and not sophistical arguments filled with logical fallacies.

The strawberry one was especially good....

Strawberries rot in short order if left on the counter. They don't rot as quickly if kept in the fridge, and they take more than a year to rot if kept in the freezer. Can we therefore conclude that film stored in the freezer will also survive longer than film stored in the fridge? Answer: no...it does not follow. Film and strawberries are certainly not the same. The mechanism that causes each to "rot" is obviously different. We cannot make a conclusion about the survival time of film from the strawberry experiment. We can however form a pretty good hypothesis. The hypothesis must be tested with an experiment involving...film! not fruit.

Chemical reactions go slower in the cold you say...ok fine. I'll accept that as scientific "fact". It seems reasonable therefore, that film ought to degrade more slowly in the lower temperature found in the freezer. Again, we have arrived at a nice, testable hypothesis - has anybody done the experiment? - no? then we cannot draw any real conclusions from this. Our instinct tells us the freezer must be better for film survival time but is chemical reaction rate really the only, or even the dominant effect in film lifetime? I don't know. Maybe, there is a physical change that is important too...as was demonstrated by the freezing water in the coffee cup.

Again, we can do an experiment with the frozen strawberries....

Lets take some frozen fruit from the freezer - they've been in there a year. No problem - right? Let's let 'em thaw....OK, now...when they're thawed...go out to the garden and pick a bunch of fresh strawberries. Set the two groups of strawberries on a table next to each other. Now, invite the six year old into the room....do you think he can tell a difference between the two samples of strawberries? Which one do you think the six year old kid would say was "better"?

Of course, the thawed strawberries are significantly different from the fresh picked. Both are edible..."No Problem" but, there was some not so subtle physical change...again, we have another hypothesis to test...still no conclusive answers to the film survival time question.

Actually, the most rational reason for storing film in the freezer I have seen so far in this thread is that there is more space available in the freezer....

The rest is all conjecture. Conventional Wisdom.

I am only trying to challenge you all to think about the conventional wisdom. Don't just blindly conform...and ask yourself if it really matters. If you're like me, you're gonna buy fresh film from a reputable retailer and use it up befroe the expiration date....so, why bother with the freezer?


OK. Sorry for the long digression. If guess twenty years working as an engineer and a consulting engineering statistician has forced me to question the conventional wisdom and to never trust instincts. (we instinctively KNOW that things last longer in the freezer...well, except glasses filled with water :) )

BradS
8-Jan-2009, 23:35
Oh, and back to the original poster's concern....

I offer a different point of looking at the issue....you're obviously concerned about the film or you would not have posed the question in a public forum. In industry, we call that a "loss of confidence failure". You've lost confidence in the product. It is like when your car stalls at a stop light for no apparent reason....You will always be in doubt whenever you use this film. Thus, the fuilm will be of little value...you won't use it in important situations because, you'll have this lingering doubt....Is it worth it? Probably not.

I suggest that you send it back to the seller, if you can. Get your money back and buy a box of TMAX100. You be happier in the long run...you can even store the TMAX in the freezer!

PenGun
9-Jan-2009, 00:04
Good Lord. From the PDF:

"While storage in a refrigerator or freezer can be highly
beneficial, you should not rely on it to extend film life
beyond the “Develop Before” date. This is especially
important with high-speed films, which can be fogged by
cosmic and gamma radiation that is naturally present all
around us. Neither cooling nor lead-foil bags will prevent
this effect.

That's what Kodak advises. Freeze yer film.

BradS
9-Jan-2009, 00:24
...Freeze yer film.

NO. I won't. I won't. I won't!

:):p :rolleyes:

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 03:57
Brad: Thanks for you comments about loss of confidence. Yes that exactly describes my point. I am an industrial engineer with a graduate degree in these sciences. No manufacturer ever takes the time, effort, and cost to add unnecessary packaging. The triple nested boxes used for sheet film are required to protect the contents against physical damage. And when the unopened box is placed in a vacuum sealer and all the air is sucked out, yes the box does crush from atmospheric pressure. That is what I have. A box dented in about 3/4-inch or about 30% of its original thickness. There is no doubt that this process squashed all 50-sheets of film tightly together inside their original bag for the duration of this storage. Film emulsions are based on (nearly) dry solutions of chemicals in gelatin. But not completely dry. I am wondering if this crushing (highest psi in the center because of box construction) may have either warped the film itself, or thinned the emulsion layer in the center. These are the two physical phenomena I could see happening. I have experience with processed sheet film and 120 that are warped. When the images are scanned the warpage (caused by residual strain in the film) causes diffraction patterns that degrade the image. Even drum scanning cannot remove this effect. So yes my basic issue is I paid a lot of money for rare film, with extremely fine resolution (much finer than TMX), that I would like to be able to use for extremely large enlargements, and vacuum packing forces during storage may have ruined it for this purpose.

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 10:31
Although no-one had any real experience with this to share, many thanks for all who answered and posted opinions. I just received an answer from Kodak about vacuum packing sheet film for storage. The essence of their answer: Yes it can change the characteristics of the emulsion based on the physical forces that are applied to the film and this could be noticeable as artefacts in image density if the forces were applied unevenly during the storage period.

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 13:19
Film costs more than a current top end Fugi Finepix! Kind of why I'm so concerned. Highly experienced large format photographers would certainly understand..........

Kevin Crisp
9-Jan-2009, 15:11
Bob: It is just curiosity at this point, but how could putting a box of film in a vacuum crush the box? The inner envelope, if sealed, would puff up inside the box, wouldn't it? Even if the box on the outside is sealed (someone added tape or whatever) wouldn't putting it in a vacuum cause the box to bulge out, not crush? A sealed box could be crushed by being in a suddenly pressurized atmosphere, that part I can understand. I suspect what Kodak is thinking is that the film was taken out of the box and put in an open envelope that could be put in a vacuum machine and then sealed while under negative pressure. That would squash the film together.

Mark Sawyer
9-Jan-2009, 17:09
Jumping in for Bob to answer you, Kevin... Kodak tapes its boxes at two of the four edges where air can escape, so a sealed box is not airtight, and will compress along with everything else under negative pressure.

Regarding film storage, I'll note that freezing unexposed film has been the near-universal standards for decades. I've used 30+ year-old Tri-X that was kept frozen with very little fog, and unfrozen twelve-year-old Tri-X that was heavily fogged. It's worth noting that for processed film, freezing is the recommended long-tern storage recommendation by the Image Permanence Institute, and the Center for Creative Photography keeps the vintage negatives in its archives frozen, including the negatives of Edward Weston and Ansel Adams.

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 17:34
Kevin: if you would like me to send you a photo of the box I took several. Can shoot me an email address and I'll show you. These types of vacuum packing devices use heavy gage plastic and suck the air out down to as close to zero as they can get before sealing them off. Some I've seen use an RF sealing device to melt the plastic all the way around the item. The vendor may have had access to a commercial model. Very powerful. They are used for packaging all kinds of things that store better without air but usually things that are much stronger than a cardboard box full of film. Yes you are right about the residual air in the inner bag. That would protect the film some. But the way this box is crushed I believe the film stack was crushed also. I have decided to keep it and give it a try even though I paid several hundred for it. There is nothing quite like TP for recording fine detail. And it is no longer made since about 2006. Regards. Bob

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 17:48
P.S. Mark is right. Everyone should freeze their film if they intend to keep it a while. No-one debates this anymore. I have a separate refrigerator I bought just for film storage. No beer or other things in there. The other thing that will degrade film emulsions over many decades is radiation. Cosmic radiation or other sources. But I never thought to try and lead-line my refrigerator. Maybe that is next with the way classic films are being discontinued. Oh how I miss my PKR-120. Cheers. Bob

Robert A. Zeichner
9-Jan-2009, 18:06
Oh how I miss my PKR-120. Cheers. Bob

I have a brick of it..... frozen. Problem is no place in world can process it. Truly a shame.

rguinter
9-Jan-2009, 18:42
Yes a shame it is. Anyone who's ever seen Ansel Adams' original sheet-film Kodachromes can understand that.......

Colin Graham
9-Jan-2009, 18:47
I started salt-curing all my film. Looks like hell, but smells like bacon! :)

Seriously, I just found a forgotten box of efke film that had been though many freeze thaw cycles in a garage freezer (our power goes out alot) It had been jammed up behind the icemaker and stuck there out of site, so the ziplock bag was torn and the box was crushed. I shot some last week, you'd never know it had been stored for 3-4 years.

Don7x17
9-Jan-2009, 23:07
Here too...you haven't one scrap of evidence to support your hypothesis. Only specific anecdotes. So what if John Sexton says he's gonna freeze his film...since when is he the source of all knowlege? Has he done any real experiments or, is he also operating on logic alone. Maybe he's just using the word "freeze" figuratively....who knows?
?

Brad - I can't help but say that this post speaks more words than you can possibly write about your lack of experience in large format photography.

John was one of Ansel's assistants, and has been involved with Kodak on development of B&W materials since that time. He has frozen lots of film, with no effect. If you knew him, you would know that he does a lot of testing (sensitometry and film testing) to determine how best to use and store film. (I will also say that John and Anne are personal friends. I've spent quite a bit of time with them on the river, at workshops, and during visits here and at their place near Carmel Valley, so I know John's testing quite well).

As for me, I've been freezing film since 1979.

I've never experienced any issues surmised by you or the others on this thread....

Nope, never seen any vacuum collapsed boxes of 12x20, 7x17, 8x10, 5x7 or 4x5. Kodak or HP. Those ten sheet Tri-X 12x20 boxes would have collapsed or blown up years ago if that had been a problem.

Nope, haven't seen any effects due to stacking pressure in the centers of the film, but I would expect, if anywhere, I'd see it in 12x20 boxes stacked 12 high in the chest freezer. That bottom box gets rotated over time...when I buy new film the newest boxes get put there, so I'd see it if it were really a problem. And the 12x20 (sometimes 16x20 boxes with 12x20 in them) don't have good center-of-the-box support to take weight off the film so they'd be most susceptible.

Nope, never saw any freezer burn on stored film. However I've frozen lots of raspberries and blueberries - but they suffer from cell wall breakdown and that's a whole lot different than film.

Nope, never saw any aging of film that was attributed to freezing.

Yes, Ilford sheet film, like all the other film boxes, go into double layered 6 mil thick ziplock bags (industrial).

Yes, I have seen higher speed film that is very old get a little extra B+F. HP5 is particularly susceptible. But that's whether frozen, refrigerated, or stored in ambient temperature (I have seen all three).

And I've frozen color sheet film (mostly 8x10) as well as 120/220 rollfilm as well. No ill effects there either.

And I've never frozen a coffee cup of water in the freezer - either vertical or sloped walls. Never seen the purpose. (although a roommate in college froze a can of pepsi once by accident -- and that expanded and blew out; Still I don't draw any conclusions to film on this)

And yes, I have used B&W and Color sheet film that is way beyond its expiration date. Hey, if anyone wants to throw out film past its expiration date that has been frozen, put it onto the sale section and see how many want it. You'd be surprised...

So, what's your experience level with film? How about freezers?

Bjorn Nilsson
10-Jan-2009, 06:34
...
No-one debates this anymore.
...
Shouldn't that read "One" instead of "No-one"? ;)

//Björn

rguinter
10-Jan-2009, 09:58
Moving on... anyone have any thoughts (or preferably real experience) with taking film through the airport x-ray scanners these days? They keep pumping up the energy in these machines. I usually try to have them hand-inspect my 120 and sheet films but it is getting to be a problem at some airports. Some can't or won't do it. I usually will let my unexposed film go through the scanners once or twice but no more. And on longer trips with several connections can get to be a problem. My return trip from Anchorage last year they refused to hand inspect.........

Brian Ellis
10-Jan-2009, 10:58
So should I be freezing or refrigerating the compact flash cards I use in my digital camera?

Sal Santamaura
10-Jan-2009, 11:31
...If guess twenty years working as an engineer and a consulting engineering statistician has forced me to question the conventional wisdom and to never trust instincts...OK Brad, from someone (me) who has spent amost 34 years working as an engineer, here's some wisdom for you to question:

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/subzero/MMG_Allowable_Temp_and_RH.pdf

Knock yourself out!

Personally, I store unopened boxes of sheet film in the freezer compartment of my frost-free refrigerator/freezer. If it's Kodak film, which comes from the factory sealed within an inner envelope, I place the box in a single ziploc plastic bag to protect it from any liquid water that might drip during a defrost cycle, then directly into the freezer compartment. If it's Ilford film, I first place it in double ziploc bags that aren't closed, give it several days to equilibrate in the very low RH refrigerator compartment, then close the bags and move to the freezer compartment.

Once opened and partially used, a box with its remaining sheets is placed in a single ziploc and stored in the refrigerator compartment. In all cases, film is removed from cold storage and warmed naturally to room temperature before the ziploc bags are opened.


...But I never thought to try and lead-line my refrigerator...It would require quite a few thousand feet of earth to attenuate cosmic radiation enough to avoid film fogging. That's why Kodak reportedly stores its coated but not yet cut/finished master rolls of TMAX 3200 in an abandoned mine. Don't waste your time on refrigerator lead. :)

BradS
10-Jan-2009, 12:20
So should I be freezing or refrigerating the compact flash cards I use in my digital camera?

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or if this is a serious question...but, I'll assume it is serious. After all, the physics involved would seem to indicate that the electron drift would tend to slow down with lower temperatures...but, of course, there are the mechanical considerations to think about too. So, it is a good question.

I worked for the biggest flash memory card mfgr for four and a half years...I actually wrote the code that controls their environmental chambers - among other things. It turns out that an ordinary household refrigerator / freezer will have no effect (neither positive nor negative) on the flash memory cards. BTW: This mfgr tested their products to much, much higher temperature extremes.

Good question though. :)

Andrew O'Neill
10-Jan-2009, 12:52
I've been freezing my film for years. One of the boxes is TMY 400 that expired in 2000. I use a few sheets and stick the box back in the freezer. I've noticed no difference, even with my primary films, HP5 and FP4...



Some of us don't assume that at all, but just have more room in our freezers than in our refrigerators!

My wife freaks if I store film in our fridge :) .

rguinter
10-Jan-2009, 13:43
Sal: Good note. No I wasn't planning to try anything with lead lining my refrigerator. But the idea of buying an old mine for storing my film sounds intriguing. Unless of couse it was a old uranium mine.............

Don7x17
10-Jan-2009, 15:43
It would require quite a few thousand feet of earth to attenuate cosmic radiation enough to avoid film fogging. That's why Kodak reportedly stores its coated but not yet cut/finished master rolls of TMAX 3200 in an abandoned mine. Don't waste your time on refrigerator lead. :)

Kodak uses a former salt mine near Rochester.

They age emulsions in bulk prior to coating, and store(d?) the worlds largest collection of silver (at least back in 1982) there.

rguinter
10-Jan-2009, 16:33
Good grief. What about my question about airport x-ray scanners? Anyone have any experience with sheet-film making multiple passes through these things. I let mine go for 2 passes max. But getting more and more difficult to actually have the neanderthals do a hand check without calling in the SWAT team. They would much rather bombard everything with heavy doses of X-radiation. And I had to strip down to my shorts once (while looking down the barrel of an assalt rifle) when the buttons on my Levis set off the personal scanner. Combine that with carrying 120-rolls and sheet-film boxes and one doesn't get much sympathy...........

Kirk Gittings
10-Jan-2009, 16:56
Do a search. This has been discussed many many times.


Good grief. What about my question about airport x-ray scanners? Anyone have any experience with sheet-film making multiple passes through these things. I let mine go for 2 passes max. But getting more and more difficult to actually have the neanderthals do a hand check without calling in the SWAT team. They would much rather bombard everything with heavy doses of X-radiation. And I had to strip down to my shorts once (while looking down the barrel of an assalt rifle) when the buttons on my Levis set off the personal scanner. Combine that with carrying 120-rolls and sheet-film boxes and one doesn't get much sympathy...........

rguinter
10-Jan-2009, 17:45
Kirk: Well yes I've downloaded some of the technical reports early last year and read them carefully. But the upgrades are continuing and the power levels are increasing all the time. And the scanner operators will not hesitate to keep something under the beam for many seconds. Even with that I always have to open my Fugi 617 under guard and show them the insides. When feasible I've resorted to shipping things ahead of time when I can but there are risks there too depending on the shipping company and city.

Bjorn Nilsson
11-Jan-2009, 02:48
I recon Kirk means you can do a search on this site for the term "Xray". If you want more opinions do the same search at Apug.org. If you havn't fallen asleep by then there should be lots and lots of similar stuff on Photo.net. :)
As the world of photography goes more and more digital, I recon that very few of the security personell wants to remember what film is. Also, the way the world in general is going, paranoid seem to be a normal state of being and behaving.

Btw, good on'ya Kirk for cleaning up the mess.

//Björn

Kevin Crisp
11-Jan-2009, 10:05
Bob: Of all the threads that would set off a string of deleted inflammatory responses, I never thought yours would do it. Yes, you can find many, many discussions of the subject of airport scanners since this topic comes up and gets discussed at great length every couple months. If I may dare to summarize, I do it as follows:

1. Never put your film in checked baggage. It may be subjected to high dosage x-rays that will leave it looking lightning-scarred. The effect is kind of like a static mark but about 100 times worse. Some have reported sharp lines through the film. Some people think the lead lined bags will protect it in checked luggage, others think the radiographically opaque shape of the bag will draw attention and then scrutiny and more exposure and make it worse. A "Scotty I need more power!" kind of situation.

2. You will be OK putting your exposed or unexposed sheet and roll film through the carry on scanner for many, many passes with no evident ill effects. Personally I've put tri-x through up to 8 times on an international trip and it was fine.

3. If you still have concerns about #2 you can ask for hand inspection, put the film in a clear plastic bag in the case of roll film. The downside of this is that you may bring yourself to the attention of someone who wants to open a film holder, who wants to open a sealed box of film, etc. etc. I haven't personally had a problem when asking for hand inspection but then I later started just running it through the carry on scanner since it was less hassle and the film is fine.

Kevin

rguinter
11-Jan-2009, 17:35
Kevin: Yes I am doing essentially the same thing. I haven't noticed any ill effects from 1-2 scans but I haven't had any film with more than that. In Anchorage when I asked for hand inspection they gave me such grief that I simply let it go through. I am not sure why they did that but they wanted to take all the sheets out of sealed boxes and open the packaging on 120 rolls. My last trip was to Quebec City and the Canadians had no problem with hand inspection and were happy to do it. So go figure. I didn't read the other replies yet so not sure what was inflammatory. I get that no matter where I go so it seems par for the course. Cheers. Bob P.S. I also make sure I put the film in one of the airport plastic containers with routine things like keys pens and wallet instead of letting it go through in my backpack. With the fugi 617 and other medium/large format gear they always keep the pack under the scanner for a long time. Then make me open it anyway............

bvstaples
11-Jan-2009, 22:02
Somehow I think this thread got off the track. When I started it I hoped that some knowledgeable individuals would comment on their experiences with damaged sheet film boxes.

I store my film in the freezer; have for decades, never been an issue.

I also put film I will not immediately use in vacuum seal bags, remove the air (or as much as I can), seal, and put in the freezer. When I vacuum seal the bags, they have a tendacy to "crush up," that meaning the black lower section tends to bow in. In all the years I have done this, I have never once had an issue with the film.

If in doubt, shoot a test sheet or two.


Brian

rguinter
12-Jan-2009, 04:16
Brian: You may want to think twice about putting your sheet-film in a vacuum sealer. With what I just went through I contacted tech support at Kodak and they recommended against it saying the physical forces crushing the box can put pressure on the film stack inside and damage the emulsion layers. These layers are delicate and not made for heavy physical forces. That part is my opinion. Some commercial sealers I've seen are very powerful sucking essentially all the air out. This will leave your sheet-film box with essentially 14.7 psi applied for a long period of time. Definitely not good in my opinion. So do this at your own risk. Inner bags of sealed sheet-film are already protected from atmosphere. No need to vacuum seal. For what it's worth. Bob

mandoman7
16-Jan-2009, 22:34
As one who worked in the film era, and shot thousands of dollars worth of vps, I can say that buying film in bulk, particularly color, was very much the standard practice in working studios. Local stores weren't priced for pro's, usually, and you really had to find a supply someplace.
So you'd buy a big supply, test it for color and density, and then freeze it to hold it in that condition. The only thing that really messes it up is moisture and heat.
I stopped shooting b/w for about 10 years for a variety of reasons, but I did store a lot of film in the freezer. I just had a nice shoot this morning with my 4x5 and the 1999 dated film performed perfectly, no fog in particular. I had about $500 worth of b/w in there, and I'm glad I'm not having to buy it now.

rguinter
17-Jan-2009, 16:06
mandoman7: Absolutely. Buying film in bulk seems even more important now. Films are being phased out fast these days. One of my favorites is fugi RDP II and I bought a large supply a while back and keep it in the freezer. Both 4x5 and 120 rolls. Frankly this thread is the only place I've seen anyone debate the issue of cold storage for film in a long time. Makes me wonder about some that write in. But beware. I've seen some bulk sellers on auction sites recently saying that they will ship film to the buyer on dry ice. I don't think this is a good idea. Cold storage retards the inevitable chemical reactions that go on in the emulsions over time and slowly degrade them. Normal freezer temperatures can slow the reactions sufficiently to give the film many decades of storage life without worry of damage. But dry ice is -109F and I suspect this low of a temperature can cause trouble with the film base and emulsions. Especially since there would likely be a significant temperature gradient throughout the shipping package; e.g., temperature would not be even everywhere. Could make emulsions and film-bases brittle and subject to chipping and cracking. I wouldn't recommend it. I've shot film outdoors at -20F and kept both film and camera under my coat until the moment of each shot. But -109F is not something I've wanted to try. Bob