Fresh start, thinking about going large format.

[FearZeus]

Hi,

After becoming serious about landscape photography in May 2007 and buying a Canon 5D with various wide angle lenses, I have come to the conclusion that my gear wasn't quite up to the task. I have therefore sold all of my digital equipment and have set a budget of £6k to £8k for a new large format system. I prefer shooting from 14mm to 200mm (35mm) and seriously thinking about the Ebony 45SU. The image below of Leigh Perry is the rig I'm after and also noticed Joe Cornish (a photographer who's work I'm particularly fond of) also used this rig. Can someone please tell me what focusing hood Leigh is using in the the image below?

http://www.leighperry.com/site/LP-field-portrait2.jpg

I would also be grateful to hear people comments regarding excellent wide angle lenses lenses for the sort of landscape shooting I do, see http://photo.net/photos/johnrobinson I have heard great things about the Nikkor-SW 90mm f/4.5

Any tips and pointers that would save any frustration before purchasing my new equipment would be greatly appreciated.

[walter23]

The Rodenstock Grandagon-N 90mm is a good wide angle lens. You can get the f/4.5 or the f/6.8 versions (the latter has slightly less coverage, but I find I get more than enough image circle for most things with my f/6.8 one). You might consider the Schneider Super-Angulon XL series if you want to go wider (up to 47mm or 52mm - somewhere in that range) or larger image circle for more extreme movements (in landscapes you don't always see such tight control of perspective, but it is nice to have). The downside is some of the Super-Angulon XL lenses can be pretty big (and expensive! And they also require expensive large-diameter filters (>100mm filter size)).

A rough conversion factor for 4x5 to 35mm is about 3.6, so a 90mm lens would be about like a 25mm lens on your 5D. The SA XL series (and a few others) can get you wider, but they can be pretty costly. The exceptions might be the f8 65mm Super Angulon (not XL), the Grandagon-N 75mm, and I'm probably missing a couple of others.

[Gem Singer]

Focusing hood is a binocular reflex, probably a Horseman.

The Nikkor f4.5 90SW is an excellent choice, although the Nikkor f9 90SW has the same size image circle and is smaller, lighter weight, and less expensive.

[Gem Singer]

Sorry for the typo. Thats f8, not f9.

[FearZeus]

Thanks,

I'm not entirely sure what accessories I will need either, such as shutter release cables (although this should be easy to work out) what about equipment needed to use quick load film? Also what accessories should I buy spares of?

I am guessing £6k to £8k is only going to buy the following

1) Ebony 45SU
2) 2 lenses
3) Shutter release cable/s
4) Other accessories that I'm probably not aware of needing (lens boards, focus hood, spare film holders? etc)
5) Colour correction filters (with digital I never needed them)

Kindly advise if you have the time, thanks.

[Aender Brepsom]

Thanks,

I'm not entirely sure what accessories I will need either, such as shutter release cables (although this should be easy to work out) what about equipment needed to use quick load film? Also what accessories should I buy spares of?

I am guessing £6k to £8k is only going to buy the following

1) Ebony 45SU
2) 2 lenses
3) Shutter release cable/s
4) Other accessories that I'm probably not aware of needing (lens boards, focus hood, spare film holders? etc)
5) Colour correction filters (with digital I never needed them)

Kindly advise if you have the time, thanks.

Hi John,

4) You'll need a light meter (a good option would be a Sekonic L-508, L-558, L-608 or L-758), a Quickload holder, maybe a ground glass loupe, a dark cloth (if you don't use the binocular viewer). Generic lens boards can be had from Robert White (www.robertwhite.co.uk) for approx. £20.
5) As you probably have kept your ND grad filters, you may just need one or two 81 series warming filters and a polarizer. A good option is the Lee Filters system.

One last thing: Do consider buying used equipment. There are many excellent deals to be found here or elsewhere and you can save quite some money.

Most of all: Do enjoy your new challenge.

[timparkin]

Hi,

I would also be grateful to hear people comments regarding excellent wide angle lenses lenses for the sort of landscape shooting I do, see http://photo.net/photos/johnrobinson I have heard great things about the Nikkor-SW 90mm f/4.5

Any tips and pointers that would save any frustration before purchasing my new equipment would be greatly appreciated.

Hi John,

Joe uses a the Mahogany version of the Ebony 45SU without rear swing and shift movements. This reduces the weight of the camera substantially. I personally bought the default 45SU as I wasn't sure how much I'd use compound movements. As it turns out I do so quite a bit. Joe does climb a few mountains with his gear so every bit of weight reduction counts. I'd also budget in for a sturdy tripod!

I don't know many UK photographers that use the reflex viewer as it's difficult to acheive critical focus using one - especially when it's dark (which judging by your pictures you like the twighlight hours).

I'd recommend either the Pextax Digital Spot or the Kenko 2100 (which Joe has started using).

Joe also uses a linhof viewer and/or a Richoh 100 to frame his shots - however, if you're like me you'll take your digital out as well and can use that to frame your shots..

Joe uses the Paramo Dark Cloth but I've found the black jacket more 'light tight' .

As for lenses, a fast 90 and a good 150 will do you in the short term for the sorts of photographs your are taking (I've only seen two or three photographs taken by Joe with lenses wider than 90 - although one was his pentire head which is one of my favourites.. )

I've written quite a lot on large format at my blog (http://www.timparkin.co.uk) and feel free to ask me any questions directly if you wish..

Tim

p.s. I think the photographs where you aren't paying direct homage to Joe are pretty good.. I'd definitely try to find some views that say more about you than Joe as when you do so the results are much more enjoyable.. (for instance "stormy sky")

[Joanna Carter]

You say that you are used to using focal lengths between 14 and 200mm. Unfortunately, you are going to be slightly more restricted in LF terms as they haven't yet invented the zoom LF lens :D

When calculating lens lengths, your quick guide is to divide the 35mm lengths by 3.6. If you want to get, what might be called, a starter lens set, then you should think about a 90mm and either a 150 or 210mm; these equate to 25mm and either 42 or 58mm.

But don't forget that there is a different "feel" to the images you will see on the 4" x 5" ground glass screen when compared to peering through a small 24mm x 36mm viewfinder.

If you envisage using longer focal lengths then this will affect your choice of camera. The 45SU is limited in the focal lengths it can work with, topping out at around 300mm, unless you get "telephoto" lenses, when it can cope with up to 500mm; this is the equivalent of either 83 or 139mm.

Now, if you want to save money on a non-foldong camera, you can always go for the 45S, the difference being that doesn't have asymmetric movements on the rear standard which, although some people find them useful, are not strictly necessary. The 45S is also a little more restricted on the maximum focal length it can use; 240mm standard or 400mm telephoto.

If you want the ultimate in flexibility for focal lengths, it has to be one of the SV45 series; I use the SV45Te as it is a cheaper than the others but with a full set of movements and a massive focal length capability; the bellows will cope with up to 400mm standard and 800mm tele lenses.

Your picture shows a binocular focusing viewer which is not strictly necessary. you could more than likely get a focusing loupe and a darkcloth for less money; also, I believe the Ebony would have to be customised to take the binocular viewer. Light and Land do an excellent cloth, designed by Joe Cornish et al.

The lens hood is more than likely one of the Lee system.

The Nikkor 90mm lens is truly excellent if you can find one.

As for cable releases, Hama do a 20" "professional" http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hama-00005309-Cable-Release-Professional/dp/B00006JD44/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1220741207&sr=8-8 which I can highly recommend from personal use. The Ebony releases are also nice but do not have a lock for long exposures.

Buying an Ebony camera, don't forget that you can get matching lens boards :rolleyes: although any standard Linhof size boards will do; although you need to note that the front rise/fall is meant to be centred with an off-centre hole in the lens board, something the cheaper boards don't always have.

You have a choice of film holders; you can either get standard double dark slides or, provided you don't mind the extra film costs, the Fuji Quickload system. Quickloads have the advantage of only needing one holder as the film is in individual light-tight envelopes, and also of less dust getting on the film, as you don't have to load the films in a dark place before using it.

You don't "need" colour correction filters for tungsten or daylight as you just get the correct film for the light. However, if you want to adjust the colour temperature, then you will need a filter system. I use the Lee holders but with the (much cheaper but good) Formatt Hitech filters. You will also find a Colour meter to be of great benefit, especially if you are used to your digital getting the numbers for you :o . I would recommend the Kenko KCM 3100.

Finally, the best advice, since you are in the UK, is to join the UKLFPG discussion forums, where you can find out about our get-togethers with a view to seeing the kind of equipment you are thinking about before making any expensive mistakes :cool: We're also a nice bunch of people who enjoy helping each other. Oh, and we have "sponsors" who very kindly give us discount on film, filters and, even, some equipment.

[gary mulder]

Think about the set of lenses you eventually want to end up with. In my personal experience this can otherwise lead to buying things your not happy with.
For landscape a set will have to be portable, include your personal preferences, offer as wide as possible range.

My error was beginning with a 150 mm. I never liked a "normal" angle of view in any format, so why in 4 x 5 ? I prefer a slight roomier view as "normal". Now my set is arranged from a 120mm as starting point. Many say there super symar 110 is the most used lens. But for me a bit to expensive. Going wider from here a 80 mm will be a more logical choice instead of a 90mm. Besides a nice compact 90mm are very hard to find.

[hmf]

I know that Ebonys are the rage right now, but you also might want to look at the Canham DLC. I use mine with lenses from 65mm (Grandagon N) to 450mm (Fujinon C)with standard lensboards and bellows. Some reviews have described it as lacking rigidity at extension, but carefully locked down, my results have been excellent. I just photographed a farm from perhaps 1/4 mile (using the 450c) in 30mph gusts and can easily read signs posted on the barn wall.

The money you will save in its purchase over an Ebony folder will give you a nice start on film and lenses. And Keith Canham's customer service can't be beat.

Good luck on your transition.

[Joanna Carter]

I'd also budget in for a sturdy tripod!
From experience, the Manfrotto 055PROB is adequate, or you can splash out on the (lighter but more expensive) Gitzo 2530.


I'd recommend either the Pextax Digital Spot or the Kenko 2100 (which Joe has started using).
I use the Minolta FlashMeter VI which, since Minolta stopped making them, is now the Kenko 2100. It is a superb piece of kit that allows you to specify the range of exposure your film can cope with, measure a shadow or highlight and it will give you the correct average exposure and allow you to check that the other end of the range is not going to block/blow.


Joe also uses a linhof viewer and/or a Richoh 100 to frame his shots - however, if you're like me you'll take your digital out as well and can use that to frame your shots.
Or you can use a piece of card/plastic and a piece of string... much cheaper and lighter to carry :p


Joe uses the Paramo Dark Cloth but I've found the black jacket more 'light tight'
I tried the Black Jacket but found it too "plasticky". The Paramo cloth has the advantage of a double drawstring at the camera end which allows blocking of the gap under the camera.


I'd definitely try to find some views that say more about you than Joe as when you do so the results are much more enjoyable.. (for instance "stormy sky")
Yes, whatever you do, don't become another Joe Clone. As wonderful as his pictures are, develop your own style

[Joanna Carter]

... you also might want to look at the Canham DLC
You might also like to consider Mike Walker's cameras http://www.walkercameras.com. since you are in the UK and so is he, you would be able to get in touch both before and after purchase without the problems of the exchange rate, import duty, etc, and the inconvenience of transatlantic communication.

Also, if you join the UKLFPG, Mike is offering a discount on any cameras ordered this month; as well as on both Schneider and Rodenstock lenses.

[David Karp]

Second the idea of a Walker. Very rigid, well made, and well thought out cameras. In addition, Mike Walker is a really nice guy.

I am very happy with my Walker Titan SF.

[Sheldon N]

The Ebony 45SU is a very nice camera, one of the most well regarded for landscape field work. The Arca Swiss 4x5 Field camera (110-141 size) would be the other one to consider. Similar size/weight/lens range to the 45SU, but a more in the "technical camera" category and more rigid and precise.

However, I'd also seriously consider getting something light and simple to start, such as the Chamonix 45N-1. It's under $1k USD, will handle any of the lenses that you'd be shooting with, is nice and rigid, and is much lighter than the Ebony/Arca. It's not a bad idea to start simple rather than jumping in at the deep end. The quality of your photos will not be affected, since the camera is just a light tight box.

I'd skip the binocular viewer, and get a good lightweight focusing hood and a good loupe. I like the BTZS focusing hood, similar to the Blackjacket (perhaps a little smaller). The Silvestri 6x loupe is wonderful, compact, light and very good optically. I just use it as a straight loupe and skip the tilting base.

For a light meter, look at either the Pentax Digital Spot meter or a high end Sekonic such as the L-558 or the newer L-758DR.

For film holders and film, definitely Fuji Quickload holder/packets. No dust, lighter and more compact to carry.

For filters, a polarizer, warming filter, and a couple ND grads should cover your needs fine. If you are going to shoot B&W you can toss a couple color filters in there too.

Get one cable release for each lens, keep it attached permanently. You'll save time in setting up a shot when the light is fleeting.

DO NOT buy your lenses new. You will just be throwing away money. There are so many used lenses out there in pristine condition for 1/2 the price, and it's easy to resell a used lens if you decide it's not for you.

Choose small/compact lenses for packing around, your back will thank you and there's no difference in the end result photos. Just pay attention to the amount of coverage that a lens has.

Keep in mind that wide angle lenses are very difficult to compose and focus with. I'd start with a 80-90mm lens and work your way wider from there down the road (if needed). Joe Cornish uses a 90mm lens most of the time, based on the stuff listed on his website.

I'd put the following lenses on my short list for top tier lenses for landscape photography. There are a LOT of others that are very good, but these are IMHO the ones that stand out as being both compact and sharp, with good coverage.

Wide
Schneider 80mm XL, Nikkor 90mm f/8

Medium Wide
Schneider 110mm XL, Rodenstock 135mm APO Sironar-S

Normal
Rodenstock 150mm APO Sironar-S

Medium Long
Fujinon A 180mm f/9, Nikkor-M 200mm f/8, Fujinon A 240mm f/9

Long
Nikkor-M 300mm f/9, Fujinon-C 300mm f/10

[Gene McCluney]

If you are going to shoot color, I strongly recommend budgeting for a Fuji PA-45 instant film holder, and a few packs of their Instant film, as a test on instant film resolves all your exposure calculations for bellow factors and shutter variations, etc. I wouldn't dream of shooting transparencies without an instant film test first. And, I have to say, since I test on Instant film (used to use Polaroid until they went away) I never bracket my transparencies, and they turn out fine.

[FearZeus]

Thanks,

Looks like everything was covered in the above replies. I already have most of the gear mentioned (listed below) except for anything large format related.

1) Sekonic 758
2) Gitzo tripod
3) Geared head
4) Lee filter system with polarizer

I'm obviously willing to buy all my gear used should they become available and now know what gear I'm looking for due to reading all the replies above. There are always little things that make life easier which are often overlooked, thankfully you guys have helped point those out and have given me a clear list of things to purchase as I build my new outfit and I look to enjoy every moment of my photography using this new (to me) medium, thanks for all the help.

[dwhistance]

Hi John

You've had lots of good advice, however I do think you should make sure you at least have a play with a number of LF cameras before reaching for your wallet. They all have their individual foibles and you may well find that you really don't like working with a camera that looks excellent in the brochures. Also don't get too hung up on buying the "ultimate" LF camera as it really doesn't exist!

Here in the UK Robert White, Linhof & Studio and Teamwork all tend to have several different 5x4's in stock at any time as well as having staff who are well able to discuss their pro's and con's with you - in some cases they might even lend you one for an hour or so. I'm sure that Mike Walker will also do the same if you visit him.

David Whistance

[Joanna Carter]

You've had lots of good advice, however I do think you should make sure you at least have a play with a number of LF cameras before reaching for your wallet.
Which is the reason why I suggested getting in touch with us in the UKLFPG http://www.lf-photo.org.uk/forum/; we have members all over the place with all sorts of different equipment, most of whom would be willing to let someone see what they would be getting into without spending any hard cash. :D

[BradS]

another nod for Mike Walker's Titan SF....wonderful camera.

[Adam Kavalunas]

I would have to agree with much of what Sheldon said. I shoot with a Cham and love it! Its super light, sets up in seconds, has all the movements I'd ever want shooting landscapes, and handles lenses from 58mm to 450mm (with a small extender). I'd think twice about shelling out for an ebony. As far a darkcloth, I used a custom made one for my first camera (Tachihara), but have just been using a black shortsleave t-shirt on the Cham and it works perfect placing the neck of the shirt around the back of the camera. Costed me 3 bucks, and is practically weightless. Which brings up my next point, if you are serious about shooting landscapes, you will be hiking, in which case, in terms of lenses, I would go light. I've totally revamped my lens line up and it now consists of a Rodi 65mm f/4.5, Schneider 120mm f/5.6, Fuji A 180mm f/9, and a Nikon 300mm f/9. All of which are extremely small and light, have 58mm filter size or smaller, and all of which were around $400 used. I agree to get a cable release for each lens and leave them on. I'd go with quickloads as well. A decent 4-6x loupe and id' say you're set.

Adam Kavalunas
www.plateauvisions.com

[FearZeus]

Thanks,

I have taken a look at the Walker's cameras and they look great for a fraction of the price of the Ebony's although they don't offer the same degree of tilt/shift, etc. But I'm not entirely sure I will need that much more for landscape work? I also like the look of the Chamonix.

The important thing is stability and quality as which ever camera I purchase will probably be my last, unless there is a major break through in the development of digital and they improve the tilt/shift lens line up.

Thanks again.

P.S Can someone recommend a high quality scanner for 4x5 format, I don't want to lose any sharpness through scanning (although some is inevitable.) Or would it be wiser to have my developer scan them and put them on a DVD?

[dwhistance]

You certainly won't use any more movements than a Walker offers in landscape photography, nor probably in any other discipline. Don't underestimate the benefits of its weatherproofing - my first LF camera was a Wista DX which like other wooden cameras tended to lock up when it got really wet.

David Whistance

[timparkin]

Thanks,

I have taken a look at the Walker's cameras and they look great for a fraction of the price of the Ebony's although they don't offer the same degree of tilt/shift, etc. But I'm not entirely sure I will need that much more for landscape work? I also like the look of the Chamonix.

The important thing is stability and quality as which ever camera I purchase will probably be my last, unless there is a major break through in the development of digital and they improve the tilt/shift lens line up.

Thanks again.

P.S Can someone recommend a high quality scanner for 4x5 format, I don't want to lose any sharpness through scanning (although some is inevitable.) Or would it be wiser to have my developer scan them and put them on a DVD?

Hi John,

As alternatives to the Ebony go, at the top end the Arca Swiss is gorgeous and about the most flexible 4x5 out there (See Jack Dykinga and his fantastic Large Format book) and the Linof Technikardan is technically one of the most stable cameras (used well by David Ward http://www.into-the-light.com).

At the more cost effective end, the Chamonix is without doubt the biggest bang per buck you will get. It's light, built on a carbon fibre base and handles most movements with ease. Lots of people have bought them and been very happy. I've only played with one (Dav Thomas' - http://www.peaklandscapes.com/)

Scanning is a minefield but after a lot of investigation I can summarise as ..

1) Epson v750 - Excellent results for the price but not great at digging into shadows
2) Imacon - very expensive but great for speed of operation and almost as good as..
3) Drum Scanner - the best by a long shot but slow and messy..

For a full comparison of a 4x5 transparency, see here http://www.timparkin.co.uk/blog/scannercomparison

For a professional photographer, the Imacon is the obvious choice.

For an amateur who only prints to 16x20, the Epson will probably do..

For the discerning (read obsessive) amateur for whom no lost grain of film can be tolerated, a drum scanner (or a top end flatbed) is essential. Oh and probably get an Epson v750 too as you'll want to scan more than a couple of trannies per month.

Hope that helps..

Tim

[timparkin]

You certainly won't use any more movements than a Walker offers in landscape photography, nor probably in any other discipline. Don't underestimate the benefits of its weatherproofing - my first LF camera was a Wista DX which like other wooden cameras tended to lock up when it got really wet.

David Whistance

David isn't wrong! My Ebony has seized up under a 2 hour deluge in Scotland..

You have to be prepared to get the screwdriver out to slacken things off a little if you want a 'taught' camera and want to work in dry->wet conditions..

Tim

[jb7]

DO NOT buy your lenses new.

I'd totally disagree with this-
How am I going to pick up nice used lenses if nobody buys them new?

j

[FearZeus]

Thanks Dave and Tim,

I'm interested in the drum scanner (for prints) combined with the epson (for adding the images to my website.) I was shocked to find that I couldn't do more than 4-5 images per month. I will do some reading and see if I can find a drum scanner, although I'm already wondering if it's worth the pain. If the savings are respectable then I will purchase one, if not then maybe MPS photographic (now known as Digitalab) in Newcastle can provide quality results.

John

[Bill_1856]

If I was in GB, and spending the kind of money that an Ebony entails, I'd at least check out a Gandolfi. (Personally, I'd prefer the Gandolfi, and I'm sure that they can, unfortunately, use the business.)

[darr]

Why not start with the RSW (http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/product.asp?P_ID=977&PT_ID=163) model? I own the 45SU and the RSW. I picked up the RSW used for $1,000 US and it is my landscape camera. In my pack I have four lenses: Rodi: 65mm, 90mm f4.5, 135mm, & 180mm. Also a Horesman 6x12 pano back. Everything was purchased used except for the 6x12 since I could not find a used one. Joe Cornish at one time help designed the RSW and used it. Here is a link (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/ebony.shtml) reviewing it. You might ask yourself why don't I just use the SU for landscape work ... well I am a 50 year-old, 5'3" petite gal that cannot handle carrying a heavy load. I love Ebonies, but I also knew when it came to landscape work, I did not want all the rear movements and extra weight. When I saw an RSW used here in the US, I jumped on it -- Glad I did!! :)

Just my 2 cents.

[venchka]

Shakes his head.........

8,000 Pounds Sterling?

I know equipment in the U.K. and E.U. in general is more expensive than here in the USA. But. You can have used gear shipped to the U.K. I have never seen, let alone used, an Ebony camera. However, aren't they light tight boxes with movements? Aren't there dozens of similar cameras around on the used market? Will a new Ebony camera make better photographs than a lightly used Canham, Chamonix, Phillips, etc., etc., etc.?

Very, very nice lenses are going for a song these days. Even allowing for the latest and greatest barely used Symmar 110XL, you could put together a primo 3 lens kit for under $2,500 USD. Add another $2,500 for a camera and all the goodies. That leaves you with a big pile of Pounds Sterling for film and transportation to make wonderful landscape photographs.

With careful shopping, omitting the 110XL for the time being, you could put together a very nice 4x5 landscape kit for under $2,000 USD. Way under if you give up a few frills and concentrate on the photography aspects of the venture. Or go hog wild and buy one of Richard Ritter's new 8x10s and an extra 4x5 reducing back. And still have a lot of money left from your 8,000 Pound budget.

Am I wrong? Please tell me I'm wrong. It doesn't feel wrong. Did I miss something?

All of that said, they are your Pounds Sterling. Enjoy!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Cheers!

Wayne

[BradS]

Have to agree...I don't think I've spent that much on all of the many LF cameras I've owned over the years combined.

But, to each his own I guess.

[FearZeus]

The £6k to £8k was a budget I was willing to spend getting everything I need from the ground up and was also set without prior knowledge regarding large format equipment. It certainly looks like I will spend significantly less after reading all the helpful comments, of which are allowing me to rethink and plan carefully, exactly what I need, for that I am very grateful.

[timparkin]

Thanks Dave and Tim,

I'm interested in the drum scanner (for prints) combined with the epson (for adding the images to my website.) I was shocked to find that I couldn't do more than 4-5 images per month. I will do some reading and see if I can find a drum scanner, although I'm already wondering if it's worth the pain. If the savings are respectable then I will purchase one, if not then maybe MPS photographic (now known as Digitalab) in Newcastle can provide quality results.

John

Hi John,

You can do a lot more than 4-5 images per month but it takes about an hour to setup and clean up after plus about half an hour per scan..

Getting good scans done by third party companies is expensive!

Expect to have to pay around £1-2k for a drum scanner that will work out of the box.. You can get some for £300-£800 but you'll end up playing with old mac computers, out of date hardware, searching for scsi cards, etc..

Tim

[Frank Petronio]

If you are just starting with large format why would you commit to such an investment before actually using a 4x5? It would be like a never-ever driver popping in to buy a Lexus or maybe the better example would be a custom race car.

Using a 4x5 is an almost entirely different experience from using a DSLR -- and there is a huge, almost infinite world of possibilities inbetween. So spending $10,000 US on a system before you've even gotten your feet wet is, umm, kind of crazy.

Do a workshop or even hire a private tutor. You've save a lot of money.

[Joanna Carter]

If you are just starting with large format why would you commit to such an investment before actually using a 4x5? It would be like a never-ever driver popping in to buy a Lexus or maybe the better example would be a custom race car.

Using a 4x5 is an almost entirely different experience from using a DSLR -- and there is a huge, almost infinite world of possibilities inbetween. So spending $10,000 US on a system before you've even gotten your feet wet is, umm, kind of crazy.

Do a workshop or even hire a private tutor. You've save a lot of money.
I would agree with Frank. If it weren't for the opportunity to go on the first UKLFPG workshop, four years ago, I would have had no idea of the options available beyond getting something like a Cambo monorail.

On the workshop, I got to try out a Shen Hao, looked at a couple of Wista metal cameras and fondled an Ebony. Shortly after that, I (foolishly acquired a Sinar F1 from a photographer who was moving to digital; discovered just how difficult it could be to cart that around and, in the end, traded it in at Teamwork in London. The only reason I got an Ebony SV45Te was because Teamwork had that and a Wista wooden camera available secondhand; if the Ebony hadn't been priced at a ridiculously low £1100, I would have contented myself with the Wista and, more than likely, taken just as good pictures with that.

Having now used the Ebony for over four years, I can say that, apart from the sheer sexiness of such a wooden beast, I would just as happily go for a Walker, which I could have had for the same price... but brand new.

I shall be going to see Mike Walker shortly; I may have to be very disciplined and leave my purse at home; I am starting to get a severe attack of the wants for a Titan SF ;)

[venchka]

You might even stumble upon the Ultimate Starter Set:
Pacemaker Speed Graphic
2 lenses
5 holders

100 USD.

That's how I got back to 4x5 after an absence of several decades.

[FearZeus]

I have no worries about buying such an expensive camera to start out with as I'm 100% confident on settling into using large format for my landscape work. I'm sure it's going to be frustrating at first getting used to all the movements and viewing my results will probably have me nutting my steering wheel in the car outside the lab, but knowing me better than anyone else, I know that I will adjust quickly produce some stunning landscapes with the Ebony 45SU. The Titan SF and Chamonix did catch my eye but I decided on the Ebony for it's extra versatility.

[timparkin]

I have no worries about buying such an expensive camera to start out with as I'm 100% confident on settling into using large format for my landscape work. I'm sure it's going to be frustrating at first getting used to all the movements and viewing my results will probably have me nutting my steering wheel in the car outside the lab, but knowing me better than anyone else, I know that I will adjust quickly produce some stunning landscapes with the Ebony 45SU. The Titan SF and Chamonix did catch my eye but I decided on the Ebony for it's extra versatility.

I can't fault the decision.. I would try to budget as much money on your tripod and head as possible (i.e. get a big gitzo and a b3/BH55 or 410)

Tim

[John O'Connell]

I know that I will adjust quickly produce some stunning landscapes with the Ebony 45SU. The Titan SF and Chamonix did catch my eye but I decided on the Ebony for it's extra versatility.

Judging by your folder on photo.net, you're making the right choice in getting a camera that can handle a 47mm SA-XL.

Your original question, however, noted that you use focals up to 200mm in 135 format. You should be aware that the 45SU will not really handle normal lenses longer than 300mm, which is about 80mm in 135 format. If you choose a telephoto lens, you could focus a 400mm lens with ease, but I find Ebony's recommendation of a 500mm lens kind of iffy with only 365mm of extension---the Nikkor 500mm requires 350mm of bellows for infinity.

Ebony makes a 90mm bellows extension for the camera, which I think would be mandatory to use a 500mm telephoto, but that lens is still only a 135mm equivalent on 135 format. If you really do intend to use longer lenses on 4x5, I would consider getting either an extra camera or a modular Arca Swiss instead of the Ebony.

[Bruce Watson]

...sold all of my digital equipment and have set a budget of £6k to £8k for a new large format system. I prefer shooting from 14mm to 200mm (35mm) and ...

Changing from 35mm (or DSLR) to LF is sorta like changing from trumpet to saxophone. What you know about music carries over, but what you know about how to play the trumpet is of very little help in learning to play the sax. What I'm saying is, LF isn't DSLR and you aren't going to be able to treat it the same no matter how much you want to.

I persist in pointing this out to newbies because I think people making this transition need to hear it. Not because I think you'll pay the slightest bit of attention. I mean, I didn't when I made the transition myself. But the price paid for ignoring this advice can be steep; I'm just trying to save you months of frustration is all.

First off, you aren't likely going to use equivalent lenses. It's hard to believe that, but it's true. Second, your workflow will be radically different. The big difference is you won't approach the scene with your camera stuck to your face and "frame with your feet" like most small formatters do. The far more normal LFer way is to walk the scene without the camera, find the perspective that works for what you want, then setup your tripod, setup your camera, and pick the lens that gives you the appropriate angle of view for what you want to capture. With LF you'll make one exposure where the DSLR guy will make 100+. It's a completely different way of working.

It's sufficiently different that I *strongly* urge you to learn to use a view camera with a "normal" lens. I wish I had -- it would have saved me a lot of time and a lot of film. Pick a nice used 150mm, or even something in the 135-210mm range. It's *much* easier to learn to focus and use movements when you can clearly see what you are doing. Learning with a normal lens will cut months off your learning curve.

I also advise you to *not* get the binocular reflex viewing attachments. At least not at the beginning. Learn to use the ground glass. It's actually very beneficial, especially in composition, to see your image upside down and backwards. After you've done it a while you'll find that your brain adjusts and you only see it upside down when you will it.

You asked for "any tips and pointers that would save any frustration..." and those are mine. Use them how you will.

[Frank Petronio]

Shhhhh, inexpensive barely-used Ebony cameras have to come from someplace Bruce. Even though your advice is spot-on, he seems determined.

Don't anyone mention that 8x10 is even better -- and easier -- than 4x5 ;-)

[Michael Chmilar]

I bought an Ebony (sv45u) as my first and only LF camera, and I've never had a second thought about it.

[BradS]

Changing from 35mm (or DSLR) to LF is sorta like changing from trumpet to saxophone. What you know about music carries over, but what you know about how to play the trumpet is of very little help in learning to play the sax. What I'm saying is, LF isn't DSLR and you aren't going to be able to treat it the same no matter how much you want to.

I persist in pointing this out to newbies because I think people making this transition need to hear it. Not because I think you'll pay the slightest bit of attention. I mean, I didn't when I made the transition myself. But the price paid for ignoring this advice can be steep; I'm just trying to save you months of frustration is all.

First off, you aren't likely going to use equivalent lenses. It's hard to believe that, but it's true. Second, your workflow will be radically different. The big difference is you won't approach the scene with your camera stuck to your face and "frame with your feet" like most small formatters do. The far more normal LFer way is to walk the scene without the camera, find the perspective that works for what you want, then setup your tripod, setup your camera, and pick the lens that gives you the appropriate angle of view for what you want to capture. With LF you'll make one exposure where the DSLR guy will make 100+. It's a completely different way of working.

It's sufficiently different that I *strongly* urge you to learn to use a view camera with a "normal" lens. I wish I had -- it would have saved me a lot of time and a lot of film. Pick a nice used 150mm, or even something in the 135-210mm range. It's *much* easier to learn to focus and use movements when you can clearly see what you are doing. Learning with a normal lens will cut months off your learning curve.

I also advise you to *not* get the binocular reflex viewing attachments. At least not at the beginning. Learn to use the ground glass. It's actually very beneficial, especially in composition, to see your image upside down and backwards. After you've done it a while you'll find that your brain adjusts and you only see it upside down when you will it.

You asked for "any tips and pointers that would save any frustration..." and those are mine. Use them how you will.

OMG! What Bruce said....

[timparkin]

Changing from 35mm (or DSLR) to LF is sorta like changing from trumpet to saxophone. What you know about music carries over, but what you know about how to play the trumpet is of very little help in learning to play the sax. What I'm saying is, LF isn't DSLR and you aren't going to be able to treat it the same no matter how much you want to.

I persist in pointing this out to newbies because I think people making this transition need to hear it. Not because I think you'll pay the slightest bit of attention. I mean, I didn't when I made the transition myself. But the price paid for ignoring this advice can be steep; I'm just trying to save you months of frustration is all.

First off, you aren't likely going to use equivalent lenses. It's hard to believe that, but it's true. Second, your workflow will be radically different. The big difference is you won't approach the scene with your camera stuck to your face and "frame with your feet" like most small formatters do. The far more normal LFer way is to walk the scene without the camera, find the perspective that works for what you want, then setup your tripod, setup your camera, and pick the lens that gives you the appropriate angle of view for what you want to capture. With LF you'll make one exposure where the DSLR guy will make 100+. It's a completely different way of working.

It's sufficiently different that I *strongly* urge you to learn to use a view camera with a "normal" lens. I wish I had -- it would have saved me a lot of time and a lot of film. Pick a nice used 150mm, or even something in the 135-210mm range. It's *much* easier to learn to focus and use movements when you can clearly see what you are doing. Learning with a normal lens will cut months off your learning curve.

I also advise you to *not* get the binocular reflex viewing attachments. At least not at the beginning. Learn to use the ground glass. It's actually very beneficial, especially in composition, to see your image upside down and backwards. After you've done it a while you'll find that your brain adjusts and you only see it upside down when you will it.

You asked for "any tips and pointers that would save any frustration..." and those are mine. Use them how you will.

Wise words..

Especially the bit about not using equivalent focal lengths.. strange but true..

It took me about a month or two before I could move the camera around fluidly upside down (when I first did it my head exploded and made a mess of the ground glass).

About three to four months in I had the occasional - OMG it's not upside down! moments..

Now I can flip fairly easily between seeing right way around and upside down.. What is interesting is that when you do see upside down, it seems like your 'lizard brain' doesn't do the same instinctive processing and hence you end up *looking* at the picture and not just experiencing it.. I'm sure this actually makes a difference in how you compose (for the better).

As far as lenses go. I use my 110, 150 by far the most.. 240 & 80 occasionally ..and very rarely use the 360/500..

The only thing I disagree on is that I still use a finder when wandering around (I've not reached that instinctive virtual framing ability yet - I need a finder or a card to frame).

It is a lot more pleasurable to only take two or three photos on a trip - you spend a lot more time looking because of it and each photograph has more invested in it too.. And finally you can ditch the 'infinite (chimping) monkeys' approach to photography.

Tim

[Bruce Watson]

It is a lot more pleasurable to only take two or three photos on a trip - you spend a lot more time looking because of it and each photograph has more invested in it too.. And finally you can ditch the 'infinite (chimping) monkeys' approach to photography.

Absolutely. One of the joys of using a view camera is that using it teaches you how to see. Which makes everything more enjoyable from hiking to just looking out the window and watching it rain.

"The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see
without a camera." -- Dorothea Lange

[Joanna Carter]

...Don't anyone mention that 8x10 is even better -- and easier -- than 4x5 ;-)
Now stop that Frank!!! I'm having enough trouble with GAS. At present I'm fighting the urge to get a Mamiya 7II... or should it be a 120mm Schneider Apo Summar L for the Ebony 4x5... or should it be a 180mm lens for the RZ...

Heeeelllpppp!!! :eek: :rolleyes:

[Steve Hamley]

Joanna,

Forget the 120mm lens, you ant the 110mm Super Symmar XL! Superb in every way.

And the Mamiya 7II is nice too - it's my scouting camera for when I don't carry the 4x5, and it will do critical work too within the limitations of a rangefinder. My holiday lens was a 65mm for mine.

:D

Cheers,

Steve

[timparkin]

Joanna,

Forget the 120mm lens, you ant the 110mm Super Symmar XL! Superb in every way.

And the Mamiya 7II is nice too - it's my scouting camera for when I don't carry the 4x5, and it will do critical work too within the limitations of a rangefinder. My holiday lens was a 65mm for mine.

:D

Cheers,

Steve

I have to agree about the 110 ... seriously nice, light, but not that cheap...

I do like th 80,110,150 ratio .. it seems more 'usable' than a 70, 90, 150 (70 seems a LOT wider than 80).

Tim

[Frank Petronio]

You know, the more I look at that heroic portrait Leigh Perry, the more I want an Ebony... and a cashmere sweater. What great marketing....

[Robbie Shymanski]

It landscape is going to be shot, why not 4 x 10? or 5 x7? Especially if you have a sizable budget and are looking to shoot color!

[arca andy]

Hi John
Here's my two penny worth....I am sure what ever LF system you get you'll master it pretty quickly. My point is that if you are going to shoot colour, and I assume not going to process the film yourself, are you prepared for the hassle of trying to find a decent lab, spending your time getting the film there, waiting for it to be processed etc... when you could be out taking photos. One of the advanages of digital is that it is immediate.
From your photonet portfolio I guess you live in the North of England, I only know of one Lab in Leeds processing E6. I heard that there are none in Manchester now.
Just a thought

[Joanna Carter]

... I guess you live in the North of England, I only know of one Lab in Leeds processing E6.
I use Leach Colour in Huddersfield; excellent quality and good prices with bulk discounts. £1.73+VAT for single sheets, down to £1.30+VAT for quantities greater than 20, and intermediate breaks.


I heard that there are none in Manchester now.
Just a thought
Unfortunately true; I used to use Pro2Col but, when they closed, I changed to Leach and found that I was not getting the same "underexposed" look as I was with Pro2Col :confused:

[FearZeus]

Fortunately there is an excellent lab right on my doorstep http://www.digitalab.co.uk/index.html

Regarding the differences between film (cost, waiting for results, etc) and digital, I think the final print quality of large format not to mention just how well the system lends itself to landscape photography justifies my decision. I have been there already in my 35mm film days and although I do find it a pain playing the waiting game I think I can adjust again. My funds won't allow the sort of digital setup that I would settle for anyway, sadly :D

[Joanna Carter]

Fortunately there is an excellent lab right on my doorstep http://www.digitalab.co.uk/index.html
Wow £3.25 per sheet for E6 4x5 !!! It must be my Yorkshire heritage but that's one heck of a price compared to either Leach Colour or Peak Imaging.

[arca andy]

I use Leach Colour in Huddersfield; excellent quality and good prices with bulk discounts. £1.73+VAT for single sheets, down to £1.30+VAT for quantities greater than 20, and intermediate breaks.


Unfortunately true; I used to use Pro2Col but, when they closed, I changed to Leach and found that I was not getting the same "underexposed" look as I was with Pro2Col :confused:

Wow that is a good price, I pay £3.60 per sheet, but then I do live down in the Smoke. Did you want the underexposed look?
Oh I feel a E6/lab/price thread coming on.

[Joanna Carter]

Did you want the underexposed look?
Not really. Pro2Col were only the second lab I had used after a disastrous episode with a lab in Liverpool that fogged 6 sheets of film :mad: I used to wonder why it was so difficult to scan the shadows in, what I thought were, properly exposed trannies; as soon as I got my first sheets back from Leach after Pro2Col had closed, I realised that there was a lot more detail in the shadows and they were a lot easier to scan.

[Joanna Carter]

Oh I feel a E6/lab/price thread coming on.
Well, you could always start that one in the UKLFPG groups, otherwise we'll only get those darn Yanks recommending labs in Birmingham, Alabama or somewhere :D

[jonsmith]

I would also suggest to spend your money on lenses over the fancy camera. When it's all said and done it's just a light-tight box.