Computer help for CS3? [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

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poco

16-Dec-2008, 02:59

I upgraded to CS3 from PS6 last summer and it's always had an issue that I'd finally like to straighten out.

The problem is that CS3 is constantly writing to my hard disc during a photo editing session and it's driving me nuts. Every Single mouse click (like clicking the cloning tool while dust busting a scan) is followed by a short burst of write to disc. Even when I open a large scan with CS3 off an external drive (typically 500 megs or more), there's the normal delay as the image loads, but then even after coming up, the internal hard disc continues to whirl away for over 3 minutes ...writing something or other. If I open the same file with my old PS6 the same image will show up and the hard disc stays quiet and will stay that way even through an extensive editing session.

Here's the tech details: I'm running XP on a windows machine with (up until this morning) 2 gigs of ram. CS3 recognizes 1719 mb as available and has 70% allocated. I have my C drive as the scratch disc which has about 70 gig free space. All my files come from an external hard drive.

Thinking a move to 4 gigs of RAM might help, I upgraded this morning. After adding the memory, controlpanel/system/general shows 3.8 gigs of ram, but neither PS6 nor CS3 recognizes the additional ram -- so what's the deal with that? How do I get it to see the new RAM?

So does anyone have any ideas? The constant writing to disc of CS3 drives me friggin' nuts and makes it totally unusable to me.

RPNugent

16-Dec-2008, 05:46

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=26946

check this thread for ways to get the PC to see 3 MB of ram

Steven Barall

16-Dec-2008, 08:20

You are right in that it is a RAM issue. The problem is that 32 bit operating systems can only see 3 gig of ram. That fourth gig is just sitting there doing nothing but that's life in a 32 bit world. The 64 bit operating systems can see much more ram so if you do want a bunch of ram you have to get a computer running 64 bit Vista or that Mac Pro desktop from Apple.

You have to consider that Photoshop needs at least four times your file size to work correctly. If you are using 500 meg files Photoshop wants 2 gig or memory. On top of that you need ram for the operating system, in your case Windows XP and that needs at least half a gig. On top of that you have other little things running on your computer at the same time like virus protection and ether net and maybe your email program is open etc...

Another big drain is Bridge so if you use Bridge to search for your photos you might want to close it after you open your image.

Pretty much all of HP's desktops these days are available with Vista 64 bit. They will take and actually use 8 gig of ram and you can drive one of those babies home for about a grand depending on the processor speed and warranty. The Mac Pro desktops units can take even much more ram than that but you pay the price.

m332720

16-Dec-2008, 08:55

You can also help things out by adding a second internal drive. Set it as your scratch disk. I have a 80 gig drive in my computer that is used only as a scratch disk. It helps things out a lot.
Your computer is using the C drive as its scratch disk that is why you are seeing so much disk activity.It is running the program off of it as well as writing to it

poco

16-Dec-2008, 09:16

Kuzano

16-Dec-2008, 10:44

Thanks, guys.

The weird thing is that if I go to Help/system in photoshop, it says:

Built in memory: 3455 mb
Free memory: 2750 mb
Memory available for photoshop: 1719 mb

So why is only 1719 available, if 2750 is free?

Windows 32 bit only addresses 3 GB of RAM, even with more installed and more reported.

Photoshop may report all physical RAM, but the Windows OS cannot use it.

Constant hard drive write is a function of not enough RAM available to hold all the program files in RAM, so it is swapped back and forth to Virtual RAM Memory assigned on the hard drive, to use space on the hard drive as a substitute for the shortfall on real RAM.

IF YOU ARE MULTI-TASKING, OR HAVE SUBSTANTIAL MEMORY RESIDENT PROGRAMS, LIKE YOUR ANTIVIRUS, ETC... DETACH FROM THE INTERNET AND TURN OFF ALL PROGRAMS RUNNING, EITHER ON THE DESKTOP, OR IN THE BACKGROUND. THIS EFFECTIVELY TURNS YOUR COMPUTER INTO A DEDICATED PHOTOSHOP COMPUTER. THIS MEANS TURN OFF YOUR ANTIVIRUS AND ALL OTHER SCANNERS, BACKGROUND PROGRAMS LIKE DOWNLOADERS FOR PHOTOS THAT LOAD AUTOMATICALLY WHEN YOU HOOK UP A CAMERA OR OTHER USB DEVICE... THE LIST OF STARTUP ITEMS IS FAIRLY LARGE, BUT ALL OF THEM CAN BE TURNED OFF WITH ONE SWITCH IN MSCONFIG FOR A SESSION RUNNING ONLY PHOTOSHOP (REMEMBER TO UNPLUG THE INTERNET) AND THEN TURNED BACK ON AND REBOOT. YOUR RAM, WITH ALL BACKGROUND FUNCTIONS TURNED OFF WILL ONLY RUN THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND PHOTOSHOP IF YOU DON'T OPEN ANY OTHER PROGRAMS.

The only real fix for the RAM limit on a PC using Windows is the 64 bit Vista Edition, which introduces you to all the other shortcomings of going to 64 bit processing.

These are the short answers, and the technicalities are not addressed here. The workarounds are replete with their own issues.

The other real issue is that the vast array of hardware and software configurations for the PC platform make the solutions and workarounds inconsistent. One persons Windows PC may operate somewhat differently on any configuration, given the vast selection of hardware choices on the PC platform.

Don't read this wrong. I am not a strong advocate of Apple/Mac with the exception that until recently, the hardware choices were limited (the platform was never cloned like the PC), hence Software Programmers could more consistently write stable programs for that platform. They had only to provide hardware drivers for a limited table of hardware. Add to that a stronger committment to graphics programs over a longer period of time in the Apple camp.

Perhaps Windows 7, which Microsoft is forging ahead on, will resolve your problem. However, remember that it too will be buggy for the first year, because of the pressure to get it to consumers to replace Windows Vista, the Microsoft remake of Windows Millenia.

One should reflect on the fact that almost every widely used image editing and graphics program first started out on the Apple platform (Mac), and migrated to the PC platform as Software Publishers were finally given a GUI interface to 90% of the marketplace, instead of 8% as in the case of Apple/MAC

Peter Mounier

16-Dec-2008, 11:02

poco

16-Dec-2008, 11:14

poco

16-Dec-2008, 11:25

Because you allocated only 70% to PS?

Peter

No, under edit/preference/performance, it says I only have 17195 mb available to allocate from -- be it 70% or whatever. The performance tab isn't even recognizing that I have over 2 gig of free memory.

RJC

16-Dec-2008, 12:00

Are you running with your Photoshop scatch disk as the C drive ?

As m332720 mentioned the best solution for your Windows virtual memory swap disk is to have it on a different physical drive, this not only solves problems relating to channel contention but also of fragmentation. A swap file on the C drive usually suffers from extensive fragmentation (i.e. Windows allocates small non-contiguous elements of the physical drive to hold the swap file as it grows which dramatically degrades performance).

Even if you don't have a separate physical drive, a separate partition for the swap file will address the fragmentation issue. This also applies to the Photoshop scratch disk. I run Photoshop on an XP system with 4Gb RAM with separate partitions for the Windows swap file and Photoshop scratch disk on a separate physical drive from that which holds my programs and also my data (image files) with very acceptable peformance.

poco

16-Dec-2008, 13:30

Well, I defraged my HD and have spent over an hour trying to add a partition, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to do it. It looks like I have no "unallocated" space to right click on in Disk Management window to start the "partition wizard." I've clicked and double-clicked on everything but my dick and gotten nowhere....

I hate Microsoft. I doubly hate Adobe. I'm giving up for the day.

Steven Barall

16-Dec-2008, 13:46

Don't give up. Here's how you solve your problem. Get a piece of electrical tape and cover the light that indicates that your hard drive is writing. What difference does it make if the hard drive is writing? If you can do your work why care about the hard drive?

Computers are strange things. Just do your work and make sure that you back up data often to other drives. Don't obsess over things that are just distractions. DO YOUR WORK ! ! ! Good luck.

Kuzano

16-Dec-2008, 14:00

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, Kuzano.

But you'd think there must be thousands of people running CS3 on the XP OS without these problems. I just opened a tiny 3 mb file with no other programs open and every mouse click is still followed by a short micro-burst of writing to the hard disk. This can't possibly be right.

But let me ask you this, if speed isn't an issue and one is only concerned about wear and tear on the hard disc, how much abuse can it take? If every editing session results in hundreds of short write to discs, it wouldn't take a whole lot of that abuse to trash the thing, would it?

I would suggest that there are thousands of people running Photoshop with no clue about the Software/Hardware shortcomings. I teach computer classes and you'd be surprised at how many people have never wondered what that flickering red or amber light is all about. (Certainly no one on this forum, however)

On your first query here, if you are tapped out on RAM simply by having the hardware RAM full of Operating System and Photoshop files, then the size of your data file is irrelevant. Each mouse click can cause a call for the files from the hard drive that process the function you just enacted. These files then bump the least used Photoshop files (which aren't being used at the moment) back to the Virtual RAM space on the hard drive. The system actually tracks most recent used and least recent used Photoshop files and juggles them back and forth to the hard drive. Now if you decide to check your mail while a process is occurring the click that opens Outlook, for example, calls Outlook operating files into the fray and bumps some least used Photoshop files out of real RAM to virtual RAM.

So, yes, each mouse click will be followed by either a brief, or perhaps, a long burst of hard drive write. In fact, your data file size is only a tiny part of the equation. It's the number and mass of Operating System and Photoshop files that have the vast majority of RAM full. Consider then, the plight of the poor Vista user, who is committing a bit over a gigabyte of RAM just to have Windows Vista alone sitting there with an idle desktop. In fact the thing that clued us in to the massive RAM requirement for Vista was that the rollout on Vista was done on computers running 512 megabytes to one Gigabyte. It was well over a year before Vista computers were commonly sold with 2 and 3 Gigabytes as they are now. Vista has not really improved all that much.... the computers simply have more RAM in them.\

So, if you are maxed out on RAM, there has to be constant hard drive activity for the huge amount of file swapping going on between RAM and Virtual RAM on the hard drive.

Now, regarding the wear factor. Hard drives, for the most part are far more durable than most people imagine. In networks that run 24/7, the hard drives that constantly serve up files to the work force are lit up all the time. I've seen those hard drive run 5-6 years. Of course for a long while File Server hard drives were built a bit sturdier. For the last few years, the drives in servers are often the same as sold in home PCs.

There is one exception. Systems must be configured in matching components. A fast CPU, on a Mother Board with a fast bus speed, and a fast interface to a fast hard drive will tend to be durable. It will only tend to be fast if matched with fast RAM and as much of that as possible.

What seems to be a "fly in the ointment" has been the use of USB to connect external drives. USB is a huge bottleneck. Some suggest that should not create a dependability or wear factor on the external drive. That has not been my experience in working on systems. I have seen a few more hard drive failures on externals. Therefore, while it's a great way to store files, I suggest it is a poor way to treat the drive if you are working on an image direct from a USB drive, or using external drives as scratch disks.

I know that last part was not part of your concern, but I've seen photographers work from their USB drives. If you want to see slow.....

poco

16-Dec-2008, 15:14

Thanks.

I already have tape over all my drive lights since I use the other end of this room for film loading, etc.. It's not the lights, but the noise of the hard drive (very good hearing) grinding away that makes me so aware. They don't tell you that earplugs are the ultimate Photoshop plug-in.

I came across a tech sheet on the Adobe site that said the program itself is only pushed onto ram if the virtual memory is full, so I increased the virtual memory to the max, but now wonder if that's the the wrong direction to go. If, as Kuzano suggests it's program components that are being swapped onto the HD, maybe trying to push the program onto ram by reducing virtual memory size will ...oh whatever.

I'll fool with it again tomorrow and may be back with more questions.

Thanks for all the help today, folks!

Jeff Conrad

16-Dec-2008, 15:36

Kuzano is absolutely right that the real solution is CS4 with Vista 64 bit and preferably at least 8 GB of RAM. But you still may be able to realize a slight improvement with what you have by using the 3GB boot switch.

Even though you're only able to use a bit less than half of the last MB of RAM, that half MB makes a big difference when you give applications more than the default 2 GB (and correspondingly reduce the RAM available to system processes). I'd recommend trying the 3GB switch with different values given via the userva switch. Start with something like /userva=3000; I use this value, and my system only reports 3326 MB built-in memory.

One caveat, though--if you're running many other applications, you may find that the 3GB switch doesn't leave the system with enough resources to run everything. Because of that, it's a good idea to keep the default entry in boot.ini and boot with the 3GB switch only when you plan to concentrate on PS (if boot.ini has more than one entry, you get a menu of choices at boot time; after a brief delay, the system boots using the first entry if no choice is made).

SergeyT

23-Dec-2008, 20:05

Windows 32bit OS can and does work with 4GB of memory.
Evenhtough the actual system can be set up with 4GB of physical RAM the amount of accessible by Windows physical RAM will be always less then that (in 2.x-3.xGB range depending on the Motherboard design and installed boards).
Some links to the insight on the memory management and the /3GB param are here http://support.microsoft.com/kb/291988.

When Windows performs access to the HDD with no user application actually reading or writing to a file it is likely doing a relocation of pages from physical RAM to HDD and in opposite direction. This process is also known as swapping.

On systems with 4GB of physical RAM running Windows 32 it makes sense to disable the page file feature and prevent Windows from doing the swapping (or accessing the HDD on background).

I use one of my PCs with XP SP2 for Photoshop CSx exclusively and in order to gain the max performance I have done the following:

1. Uninstalled all the bundled software that I never use
2. Disabled all the system services that are not going to be needed in my day-to-day work.
3. Set up the /3GB param
4. Disabled the swap file:
My Computer-->Properties-->Advanced-->Performance-->Advanced-->Virtual memory--> No Paging File --> Selected

Now CSx works super-fast and has never been slowed down by the Windows swapping. The only issue is that as soon as CSx reaches 3GB in size it starts complaining about not enough memory. But I have to have multiple 1GB files loaded simultaneously for that to happen. So not a big deal for me to restart the CSx once in a while (I need breaks anyway). But the benefits of increased performance and significantly reduced access to the HDD are obvious!

If the noise of the HDD is still an issue then you may wish to consider replacing the older HDD with a newer one (non-SCSI :)). The newer ones are almost silent.

poco

24-Dec-2008, 05:28

Thanks, Sergey

After reading a bit about the 3gb switch I've chickened out. I'm one boot failure away from total computer disaster since I'd never know how to fix it.

I tried turning off the paging file and it made no difference. Nor were any suggestions offered by Adobe Help of any ...help.

I'm going to continue using PS6 until I can afford an upgrade to an entire new machine that will hopefully make CS3 work for me.

I'm done with the hassle of trying to make this work.

Happy holidays to you!

-Michael

SergeyT

24-Dec-2008, 10:31

Michael,

Disabling the paging file requires a computer re-boot to take effect.

If you think about Vista - think twice :)
A friend of mine has a newer PC with 8GB and Vista Ultimate 64 bit and the way Vista works with HDD (the HDD led is constantly on even if PC IDLEs) could drive just about anyone crazy.

In my opinion, upgrading just the HDD on your PC to some newer 1TB Seagates (either SATA or ATA) will make you system as silent (and fast) as it gets. This should cost you about $100 and you will be able to enjoy all the benefits of CS3 on your exiting machine( with 4GB RAM , /3GB switch and disabled paging file :))

BTW, the /3GB switch is not all that scary as it might seem. In the worst case scenario you can always re-boot the Windows in safe mode (F5 or F8 at startup) and get rid of the switch if you do not like what it did.

Happy Holidays !

aphexafx

10-Jan-2009, 02:45

Well this is an interesting thread for sure. I have 4GB installed in my system, running XP SP3 (32-bit), and I just took the total plunge: I've turned off the page file and added a /3GB switch boot option, which I am now running. Photoshop CS3 opened up with more memory in the performance prefs, and I have adjusted that to 85%.

So far everything is still very smooth and I have no issues.

I will add that an even safer option for trying the 3GB switch is to add a new boot parameter with the switch, instead of modifying the existing one, so you can choose whether to boot with it at startup. [I see now that Jeff Conrad has already suggested this!]

Thanks for the info, SergeyT et al. :)