Newbie needs film developing advice

[h2oman]

I bought my first LF camera about a year ago, and have been shooting color transparencies. Got into it because of the likes of David Meunch, Jack Dykinga, etc., but recently my tastes have changed a little, and I'm itching to give B&W a try. But here are the two problems: 1) I've never developed a single bit of film in my life and 2) I don't want to accumulate a whole bunch of stuff until I'm sure this is not just a temporary obsession!

I've been reading a lot, Steve Mulligan's "B&W Made Simple" (or something like that), Adams' "The Negative", Picker's Zone VI Workshop book, Ken Lee's site, etc. I think I have some handle on the big picture, and I'm pretty comfortable with the technical aspects. There are a (very) few people in town who might be able to help me out, but they have not been terribly forthcoming so far.

I have 100 sheets of film, have decided on a developer, and am ready to start shooting to find a film speed and developing time. At this point I think I will eventually scan (or have other people scan) negatives and print digitally. Getting ahold of an enlarger does not look promising at this point. My understanding is that my testing should be conducted from exposure all the way to print, but it just ain't going to happen that way right now, and if I wait until I have everything worked out it may never happen!

So here is my dilemma: How should I develop my film? I had originally thought trays. I have also been offered the use of these hangers that I saw in a photo in The Negative - I think they are for what is referred to as the "dip and dunk" method. The advantage of these over trays would appear to be that the dunking tanks are taller and narrower than trays, so would be easier to put in a tub of water to hold the temp constant, rather than a fairly large area of sink needed to hold 4 trays. I just read about a "taco method" used by another forum member, and that sounds appealing. He says he folds the film like a taco, with the emulsion side in, puts a rubber band around it, and puts four sheets in a daylight developing tank.

So here are the specific questions:

1. Any strong feelings/opinions about any of these methods? Really like one, dislike one?

2. What choices of simple, relatively inexpensive daylight developing tanks are available? Does anyone know of a web source of information on their use?

3. If I don't use a daylight tank, what should I do about a clock? I've looked at a few on e-bay, etc. Saw some in the B&H catalog, but they seemed pretty expensive ($150-$200) for where I am at this point.

Thanks in advance for your help. This forum has been invaluable in my LF adventure so far.

[Louie Powell]

1. I use a slosher - an insert that fits into an 11x14 tray and than holds six sheets of film in individual compartments in a way that prevents them from touching each other. While that's my preference, an easier way to start is to CAREFULLY shuffle sheets of film in a tray. If you don't have trays, you can always use those clear plastic trays that supermarkets used to package up lettuce and spinach. Of course, this is a total-darkness method.

2. The Combi-Plan tank is one of the very few daylight tanks in current production. Some people swear by them - others swear at them. The one thing that seems to be a universal comment is that they tend to leak and should be used where a little chemical won't do any harm. By the way - black and white chemistry is pretty innocuous stuff. You don't want to drink it, and sometimes it will stain, but it's not especially toxic.

3. I use a Gralab 300 timer. It has phosphorescent hands that can be seen in total darkness - and that don't generate enough light to fog film. I bought mine for $5 at a photo flea market.

[Nick_3536]

B&W isn't overly temp critical. If the room is fairly constant it'll be okay.

Jobo 2551 used with a 2509N reel. New it's not cheap but used isn't too bad. I'd add it to a Unicolor rollerbase and a Gralab 300 timer but you don't have to.

Talking clock? Tape recorder?

[Clive Gray]

I must admit I find Accurists onlinespeaking clock (http://www.accurist123.com/) useful, although I greatly prefered the original version with one accent. Anyhow just turn up the P speaker and you have 10 second interval announcements it's the relative time that matters mot the absolute after all.

I have a Combiplan and it does work well if you follow the instructions precisely, it's main use now though is as a wash tank for 5X4 as I found a useful thing called a Foto-cell GL80 it's a stainless steel water bath with four 4 litre acrylic tanks that I use for E6 dip dunk with the Tetanol kit I believe lots of people use a similar method using say food storage containers for tanks in a plastic utility container water bath which should be fine for black and white. If you do get a Combiplan the film carrier is really useful for dip dunk too.

[Tim Povlick]

If you expect to get into B&W I'd suggest jumping right to the Jobo Expert 3010 drum. I have used the Combi-Plan tank with good success and some failures. The failures were probably my error on the learning curve.

The Jobo is very easy to load and (once loaded) is a daylight tank. It uses small amount of chemicals and for development. I have found using the developer as a one shot has made for more consistent results. I added a simple motor / giant o-ring to mine and it now spins with consistency which improves results. The motor contraption was easy and cost about US$30.

I personally think you are going in the right direction, image, develop, scan, photoshop and print.

_ .. --
TiM

[mcfactor]

I'll second the jobo, except without the motor base. that way you can agitate any way you want.

[Brian Ellis]

I prefer the BTZS tubes or your own home-made version of them. You can buy a set of six tubes, 12 caps, and a water jacket tray for about $120 from The View Camera Store. Once you have the film loaded in the tubes everything from there through washing can be done in room light. Each tube takes only 2 ounces of working developer solution so you save on chemicals. And once you get into serious testing and know your normal, plus and minus development times you can develop different sheets for different times in the same run (which can't be done with a Jobo drum). I process six sheets at a time in the tubes though you could probably do up to about 10 if you had the tubes. But if you really want to go inexpensive, get four or five 5x7 or 8x10 trays and tray develop, see how you like b&w. If you want to pursue it get the tubes or a Jobo drum later.

[Tim Povlick]

Here is an image of my homemade motor base for the Robo. Adding the electronics to reverse direction and speed would be trivial. The I've spun the 3005 drum with a full liter and the motor only got warm.

_ .. --
TiM

[horanginy]

on BTZS tubes: Once you have the film loaded in the tubes everything from there through washing can be done in room light.

Not true. You must screw in the developer-filled cap in darkness. Also, I know that some people sink the BTZS tubes in stop bath with the lights on, but I think this is terrible technique.

[blevblev]

I ended up using the technique in this article:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/

which is a dip-n-dunk method using 3 combi tanks and one combi hangar. My problem was space, and the fact that my 'darkroom' is not all that dark. I bring my tub with the 3 tanks with chemicals loaded into a dark closet, and sit in there like an idiot for however long it takes to do a batch until I get the film fixed. Then I bring it out into the light for washing.

I tried using the Combi straight, but it takes forever to pour the chemicals into and out of the tank, and it leaks pretty badly. They shouldn't be too upset, though. I did end up buying 3 of them.

[Brian Ellis]

Not true. You must screw in the developer-filled cap in darkness. Also, I know that some people sink the BTZS tubes in stop bath with the lights on, but I think this is terrible technique.

I'm not sure what's "not true." I thought it was self-evident that after putting the film in the tube you had to cap the tubes. Surely nobody would think you could put film in open tubes with no caps and turn on the lights.

Could you tell us why you think it's "terrible technique?" I've been doing it for 14 years, it works fine.

[Robbie Shymanski]

Go with trays. They will be your most inexpensive and simple route. After a few times you will master getting around in the dark. It is a cheap way to get started and it you hate it, you will appriciate the Jobo or daylight tanks even more. Although I like the old school notion of getting your hands in the chemistry and moving the sheets by hand.

And as for a timer, I processed hundreds of sheets of film before I finally picked up a Gralab at a photo-swap for $20. What I used was the stopwatch function on my iPod. It's illuminated so I had to keep it covered and out of contact with my trays, but I could also listen to tunes while I worked. Added that I was processing Tri-x in HC-110 so I was only in the dark for 10 or 12 minutes (7 min HC-110, 1 min stop, 2 min fix, then I hit the lights to see how badly they turned out while they finish in the fix).

[horanginy]

I'm not sure what's "not true." I thought it was self-evident that after putting the film in the tube you had to cap the tubes. Surely nobody would think you could put film in open tubes with no caps and turn on the lights.

Could you tell us why you think it's "terrible technique?" I've been doing it for 14 years, it works fine.

I think it's self-evident to most people familiar with BTZS but not necessarily to newcomers or people who have come from JOBO or other methods which have a pour-through system for chemistry that is done apart from canister loading.

I've always been taught never to turn on the lights until at least after the stop bath or else risk fogging the film. Maybe I've been too cautious but I'm not about to attempt fate in my own developing area, which is very brightly lit.

[MIke Sherck]

I agree with Robbie; if you aren't sure that this is for you, investing in equipment you may not use seems wasteful. For 4x5 film processing you need four 8x10 trays; developer, stop, fix, and wash. If you use water as stop then you really only need three trays. You don't need photo trays; cheap dish washing tubs are fine for your experimental purposes, although flat-bottomed trays may make it difficult to pick up film. Also, trim your nails! Wet film scratches easily.

The danger for tray development is scratching the negative; the secret is to process the film emulsion side down, don't hurry, and place the film you just took from the bottom of the stack on top of the stack level, without digging one of the corners into the back surface of the film below. Start by developing one sheet at a time, until you've practiced the movements in the dark. Once you get your exposure and developing times to the point where you can reliably get a printable negative, start processing two films at a time, then four, then eight, if you stay with it that far. Just remember that this isn't a race; faster shuffling or more sheets won't get you into heaven any sooner!

Timer; I have an old Gralab on a shelf above and to the right of my line of trays, at about the height of my head. I have a very small darkroom I built mostly from scraps for very little money. The trays sit on a small table I built; water is one of those utility tubs made for washrooms. $20 from Menard's. The shelf is eight inches deep and from the level of the trays below, you can't see the clock's face. I cover the face of the timer with a piece of old mat board when loading or unloading film and uncover it when the film is in the developer. I've never had a problem. I was fortunate to find my timer at a garage sale, many many moons ago. Alternatives could include a metronome or any other clock with a second hand. You can wrap it in light-proof fabric so the face doesn't shine on the film in an emergency (or just to try it.)

Good luck!

Mike

[kev curry]

I've always been taught never to turn on the lights until at least after the stop bath or else risk fogging the film. Maybe I've been too cautious but I'm not about to attempt fate in my own developing area, which is very brightly lit.

Part 1: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY&feature=related
Part 2: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KGv_SqbzU&feature=related

Horanginy,

You might question the basis of your caution regarding development after watching Fred Newman demonstrating his method for using the BTZS tubes...I imagine that he must have developed negatives numbering in there thousands with this method without any problems with fogging.

kev

[Brian Ellis]

I think it's self-evident to most people familiar with BTZS but not necessarily to newcomers or people who have come from JOBO or other methods which have a pour-through system for chemistry that is done apart from canister loading.

I've always been taught never to turn on the lights until at least after the stop bath or else risk fogging the film. Maybe I've been too cautious but I'm not about to attempt fate in my own developing area, which is very brightly lit.

If anybody who posts here thinks they can turn the lights on with film in an open tube they're going to have far more problems in life than ruining some film.

What you've been taught about turning on the lights is wrong when using the BTZS tubes.

[h2oman]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Just yesterday a guy gave me a bunch of trays, a Gralab timer, and some chemicals that he says never go bad. Give me your opinions on this last one - the things he gave me are

glacial acetic acid

indicator stop bath

Arista universal Hypo- Wash

photo flow

I had never heard of the BTZS tubes before posting, but I found the video after posting and before it came up here. That system has some appeal. I got a bit lost here in the discussion about when to turn the lights on, but I got the impression from the You-Tube video that the film should be loaded in the dark and the developer-filled caps screwed on in the dark (that is obvious to me), BUT the film tubes can be opened and quickly put in the stop bath in the light? For this question I'd prefer answers only form those who have successfully used the tubes.

More generally, if a person is tray developing, when can the lights be turned on? After the film has been in the stop bath long enough? Wait until after the fixer? I'm a bit confused because in "The Negative" Ansel says the lights can go on after the first couple minutes in the fixer, but in the BTZS video the guy says that that lights can be on while moving the film from the stop bath to the fixer or even sooner.

I think I understand what all the different solutions (developer, stop bath, fixer, etc.) do, and it seems that the greatest margin of error would be obtained by leaving the lights off for as many of the processes as possible, but I am also curious as to how far people have pushed the limits of this without problems.

Thanks again for all the help, and in advance for further input. I know I'll have to figure some of this out by experience, but I like to be as informed as possible!

[Nathan Potter]

h2oman. Per your original questions - yes it is best to do film exposure calibration all the way from film to print. So you select the film type and print paper type you want to use based on say an intuitive feel for what you want to achieve. You likewise would choose a film developer and print paper developer suitable for use with your chosen film and paper. Then you go through a determination of an exposure index followed by a zone test as described by many using various techniques. But since you are just starting out you may want to simplify all this.

Work with just the film first. Pick a simple film development scheme (tray as suggested above) and stick with it for some time. Try to control temperature of the developer within at least several degrees so you can achieve some modicum of process control. Do the exposure index test as suggested by any of many publications.
For normal development look for a negative density of say 1.3 in the highlights (darkest regions of the negative). Don't worry too much if you end up with say 1.1 to 1.4 you'll still eventually be able to print the negs by choosing a paper grade that fits.

I'd recommend that you need a negative step wedge for determining your negative density. (Stouffer Industries Inc.). Simple comparison between the Stouffer and the neg. should suffice. This format has threads that tell how to do this. From this point on you can go into expansion and contraction development times as you choose and refine the whole process as time permits.

You may want to drift away from tray development to more sophisticated drum technique but don't worry about that yet. I still do the dip & dunk stuff on occasion but with 4X5 in a stainless conventional tank one uses quite a bit of chemistry. For intermittent use a one shot scheme is more economical.

Best of luck!

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Bjorn Nilsson]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Just yesterday a guy gave me a bunch of trays, a Gralab timer, and some chemicals that he says never go bad. Give me your opinions on this last one - the things he gave me are

glacial acetic acid

indicator stop bath

Arista universal Hypo- Wash

photo flow

I had never heard of the BTZS tubes before posting, but I found the video after posting and before it came up here. That system has some appeal. I got a bit lost here in the discussion about when to turn the lights on, but I got the impression from the You-Tube video that the film should be loaded in the dark and the developer-filled caps screwed on in the dark (that is obvious to me), BUT the film tubes can be opened and quickly put in the stop bath in the light? For this question I'd prefer answers only form those who have successfully used the tubes.

More generally, if a person is tray developing, when can the lights be turned on? After the film has been in the stop bath long enough? Wait until after the fixer? I'm a bit confused because in "The Negative" Ansel says the lights can go on after the first couple minutes in the fixer, but in the BTZS video the guy says that that lights can be on while moving the film from the stop bath to the fixer or even sooner.

I think I understand what all the different solutions (developer, stop bath, fixer, etc.) do, and it seems that the greatest margin of error would be obtained by leaving the lights off for as many of the processes as possible, but I am also curious as to how far people have pushed the limits of this without problems.

Thanks again for all the help, and in advance for further input. I know I'll have to figure some of this out by experience, but I like to be as informed as possible!

First, these chemicals listed will last "forever".
Next, why you can expose a developed film to light is that the more the film is developed, the less it's sensitive to light. Now, noone recommends that you should use a flashlight and shine directly on the film. Most advice says that you can do the "manouver" in subdued light. It's always good to be careful.
The same rules applies for tray processing. Now, it was a long time since I did tray processing, but I remember that I made a "lid" out of cardboard for the stop bath tray, so that there was no direct light pointed at the film. This bought me some time to catch my bearings in the light and to prepare for the fixing etc. When I had moved the film over to the fixer I still had subdued light on (I think I was using my yellow-green printing light.) until the film had cleared (i.e. half the total fixing time).
A few years ago I did do the same thing when using a CombiPlan (which is a squarish 1 liter (1 quart) tank which takes forever to drain and refill). So, in darkroom light I lifted one short side of the rubber lid to quickly drain the developer and then pour in the stop bath. Then I took off the rubber lid completly and continued with the processing. There was no fogging of the sheets whatsoever.
When comparing tray processing vs. BTZS tubes there is no difference when it comes to light sensitivity. As thousands of users are using BTZS, there is no reason to doubt what they are saying. Just remember to move the very last sheet from the developer over to the stop bath before you turn on any light. ("Oh no, there was one sheet left!!" :) )

So, in short, the advice given about when you can turn the lights on is correct. But this is just a matter of convenience, nothing else. So see to that you are comfortable with working in the dark, even though you will have to wait until everything is in the fixer. It is also a good thing to practice over and over again, i.e. to shuffle and move the sheets from tray A to tray B to tray C etc. in the dark. I think you agree that it's more important that everything is really safe before you start to investigate any "shortcuts".

//Björn

[Brian Ellis]

"BUT the film tubes can be opened and quickly put in the stop bath in the light? For this question I'd prefer answers only form those who have successfully used the tubes."

Yes

[Bob Salomon]

I ended up using the technique in this article:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/

which is a dip-n-dunk method using 3 combi tanks and one combi hangar. My problem was space, and the fact that my 'darkroom' is not all that dark. I bring my tub with the 3 tanks with chemicals loaded into a dark closet, and sit in there like an idiot for however long it takes to do a batch until I get the film fixed. Then I bring it out into the light for washing.

I tried using the Combi straight, but it takes forever to pour the chemicals into and out of the tank, and it leaks pretty badly. They shouldn't be too upset, though. I did end up buying 3 of them.

They should not leak. If they do send us the tops and we will replace them.

The fill and empty times are the same so that presents no problem.

[ki6mf]

I used Jobo, Open Tanks in dark rooms, Yankee Dalignt, and the HP Combi tank. All work fine. My personal choice is the HP Combi tank. I do use a diluted developer, D 76 1:3 with a 14 minute normal (N) development time. Use of a diluted developer while creating longer development times tends to help solve problems with streaking and avoids pre-soaking!

Some don't like the slow pour times on the HP. As long as your are consistent with your agitation technique this doesn't matter. The Jobo is tends to have less spillage too. However for daylight adgitation your choices are limited to HP Combi, JOBO, or the Yankee Daylight tank. The Yankee daylight is the lease expensive however is not an inversion tank like the Jobo or HP Combi. If you get a bit of spillage in the HP you probably forgot to tighten the drains on the tank. One other thing the HP has a drain at the top and the bottom side this lets your flush your chemicals in final wash by putting water in at the top and draining out the bottom!

[scrichton]

I use the near free taco in the twin 120 daylight tank.

Providing you use bands of a good size and face all the tacos in a similar way there is no scratching and all the other woes people talk of. Pre-soak helps remove most of the issues with streaks etc.

For agitation use a swirl method. Pick the tank up with one hand and rotate like a powerball or stirring soup.

But the total cost of this would be less than £10 ($15) on ebay for an old paterson tank. So thats a full £300 less than a jobo expert tank!

[scrichton]

Oh and stay away from the Jobo Sheet Film Reels like the plague. I have had too many problems over successes to ever recommend one to anyone.

[sanking]

From someone else who has developed several thousand sheets of film with the BTZS method, yes. Once development is complete, and with the room light on, you remove the end cap of the tube and quickly plop it into an acetic fixer bath. After a few seconds, you can remove the film from the tube and leave it in the tray with room lights still on.

"No problema" at all.

Sandy King



"BUT the film tubes can be opened and quickly put in the stop bath in the light? For this question I'd prefer answers only form those who have successfully used the tubes."

Yes

[Paul Kierstead]

Oh and stay away from the Jobo Sheet Film Reels like the plague. I have had too many problems over successes to ever recommend one to anyone.

Hmm. I've done about 100 sheets on them without incident. They are fiddly, though. Clearly YMMV.