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View Full Version : 8 x 10 is another country



BarryS
6-Dec-2008, 21:35
I swear--it was much easier going from medium format to a light 4 x 5 field camera than going from 4 x 5 to 8 x 10. When I'm shooting 4 X 5 I feel like an artist, but with the 8 x 10--it's more like being in a wrestling match. It was in the 30's today and I felt so clumsy with the 'dorff--it felt like being on the brink of catastrophe. It probably didn't help that I was trying to shoot landscapes with a #4 Vitax on bridges over rushing rapids. Incidentally, I think I've discovered the largest lens you'd ever want to consider using on a V8. I had the V8, Vitax, 6 holders , tripod, meter, and darkcloth (no loupe--doh!) loaded in my backpack and it was beating me into the ground as I walked. The 8x10 negs are great and I want to do some alt-process contact printing, but 4 x 5 seems so much easier. I must be nuts because I *was* thinking about 8 x 10 wet plate in the field. Just wondering if this this going to get any easier--or blow out my joints!

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6749/dorffandvitaxwc9.jpg

David A. Goldfarb
6-Dec-2008, 21:46
For me 8x10" was more immediately intuitive than 4x5" because of the large groundglass image and the fact that I was printing at the same size as the image on the glass. I had to shoot 8x10" for a few years before I felt comfortable with 4x5".

The cold doesn't help, but I remember a winter LF outing in New York that convinced me to look a little more seriously at a carbon fiber tripod to replace my aluminum Bogen, and it looks like you've got one of those. You can probably a pound or two by replacing the tripod column with a flat plate.

My big portrait lenses, though, stay in the studio.

Tracy Storer
6-Dec-2008, 21:48
GNBN,
with wet plate, you only carry one holder.

Vaughn
6-Dec-2008, 22:46
Get yourself a Reis, you wimp!

;)

Vaughn

Jim Fitzgerald
6-Dec-2008, 22:52
Nice lens! I agree it looks to be the limit though. Move to ULF and then the 8x10 will be a piece of cake. 4x5 will be sooooooooo easy then.


Jim

Mark Sawyer
6-Dec-2008, 22:55
We all have the right format size for each of us. Some can't move from 35mm to medium format. I feel at home with the 8x10, and a bit outsized by the 11x14. And for some people, 20x24 is juuuust right...

It's all good... :)

Ron Marshall
6-Dec-2008, 23:00
Split the difference: go for 5x7 or whole plate!

Songyun
6-Dec-2008, 23:19
And you put it on a ball head and a tripod with center column....

I can hike with my 45 very easy, maybe I can hike with my 8X10 with a good backpack, but not with dorff and a huge lens like that.

John Kasaian
6-Dec-2008, 23:56
Thats a heck of a beak on your 'dorff!

FWIW it's probably best to start with an 8x10----that way it makes other formats seem lightwieght and tiny! :)

Guys who complain about how heavy some 4x5s are really crack me up! :D

Walter Calahan
7-Dec-2008, 06:47
I love my 4x5, but 8x10 rules my life.

The 8x10 ground glass is like looking through a window. A 4x5 ground glass is a viewfinder.

I have Gitzo tripods with ball heads. I'd would NEVER put my 8x10 on one.

Do yourself a favor, get a tripod made for 8x10. Preferably a wooden tripod. They work far better in the winter cold. You want a tripod head that can only move in one direction at a time. An 8x10 camera has too much mass for a ball head. With a traditional plate tripod head I can center my camera in seconds.

Finally, my Arca-Swiss compact 4x5 monorail camera weighs more than my KB Canahm lightweight 8x10 field camera.

This is what my 8x10 looks like sporting a Cooke XVa in the 476 mm configuration: http://www.walterpcalahan.com/Cheers/Info.html

Notice the snow, the wood tripod, and the smile on my face. HA!

Frank Petronio
7-Dec-2008, 06:47
It's worse to lug it and then find you can't shoot as fluidly as you really should because you have mechanical constraints and it is just such a PITA to make a subtle adjustment.... I think the problem might be that you sacrificed a lot of usabilty in the quest to go lightweight with your outfit. Just looking at it makes me shudder to think of the flesh ripping off my fingers trying to tighten everything down (those tiny knurled knobs) with that big a lens, while also trying to balance everything on a too spindly tripod. That's not even factoring in the cold or the ballhead or....

Give up on backpacking 8x10 and get a jogging baby cart or hire a Sherpa. Then you can sell that Dorf and get a more comfortable camera to actually shoot with. Backpack your heart out with a 4x5 Toho or something.

Come on, really have you ever seen good 8x10s from a solo lightweight backpacker? I can't think of any... probably because they're exhausted and they could only bring a few holders (to save weight!)

Ken Lee
7-Dec-2008, 07:02
"It probably didn't help that I was trying to shoot landscapes with a #4 Vitax on bridges over rushing rapids."

Why not get a smaller, lighter lens ? The one you show, probably weighs as much as all your other equipment combined.

That being said, there are reasons why 4x5 became as popular as it did.

eddie
7-Dec-2008, 07:37
;)

keep at it. it will get easier! or if you want to speed up the process shot 11x14 for a few days...this will instantly make 8x10 seem small!

i got to shoot my friend alec's 11x14 last year. it is a wisner camera! after wrestling it up on the tripod setting it up yaddi yaddi ya.....i got ready to shoot and said this is F!@#ing stupid, i would never shoot 11x14! then i got home and developed the neg and the next thing i knew i was shopping for an 11x14! now 8x10 feels real small!

like i said keep at it. start of near the car. once you get your system down than you can add specialty lenses (big portrait lenses) and try and cram it all in a small backpack.

have you dveloped te negs? can we see them? if you have you are probably hooked! i know i do not shoot my 4x5 so much recently. i ma just enjoying 8x10 more. i should shoot more 4x5 as i am burning through huge amounts of that expensive film....

i use a 3251 tripod with a 3039 head on it. this is a great tripod because it has these little levers on it(see the pic) to allow you to adjust one leg at a time or all of them at once. hit the button and down/up you go. let off and it is locked. real easy, especially with a big camera on it. they are very cheap too. i got the tripod in new condition for $75! for my "backpacking/travel" tripod i use a 3021 with a 3047 head.

eddie

keep us posted. show some pics of that landscape vitax.

Michael Graves
7-Dec-2008, 08:03
Ha! That's why I love my 5x7. Life is made of compromises! Still, I do thoroughly enjoy taking my Toyo 810M out for a spin every now and then. I've never tried to attach a Celestron C90 to the front though. How did you do that?

Ralph Barker
7-Dec-2008, 08:39
"8 x 10 is another country"

Hmmmm. I seem to recall a recommendation in the visa application to add up the weight of the individual kit components before crossing the border. ;)

I use a LowePro backpack for my 8x10 Tachihara, but usually limit myself to one or two smaller lenses, and only a couple of film holders in the pack. That Vitax is a beauty, but it has got to weigh a ton. Plus, I tend not to go too far from the truck, since the return trek is almost always uphill (or, just seems that way).

A cart of some sort is, as suggested, another option. Plus, a cart opens up the possibility of adapting it to a Rottweiler or Mastiff. They love having a job to do. ;)

Jim Galli
7-Dec-2008, 10:12
I just told a lady last evening that your set-up with a Deardorff is impossible. That looks like V8 abuse to me. Anyway the whole point of a Vitax is to shoot near wide open. How do you shutter that brute? I took the old 2D 8X10 with me Christmas tree cutting yesterday and had 5 shots done in about 25 minutes. Ries tripod, nothing stressed. Funny that all my shots were within 15 feet of the truck though.

John Jarosz
7-Dec-2008, 10:38
This affects everyone differently. I shot 4x5 for 10 years before trying 8x10. I guess I wasn't ready for 8x10 then because I just couldn't get things to work the way I wanted them to. 10 years after that I tried 8x10 again.. I prefer it now to 4x5. A few years later I jumped into 8x20. I like the 8x20 a little better than 8x10, but 4x5 has definitely been relegated to 2nd class citizen status (for me). The contact print effect makes me forget all the troubles associated with shooting the larger formats.

Of course, YMMV - that's what makes this such a personal decision.

John

climbabout
7-Dec-2008, 10:39
Barry - I steeped up to 8x10 a few years ago from 5x7 and have never looked back - the first few times were awkward, but after a few outings it should become more manageable. As Ken suggested - lightweight lenses are the way to go if you travel far from the car as I tend to do. My lens kit is a 159wolly, a 240 fujinonA, a 14" artar in an acme shutter(my only moderately heavy lens) and a 450c Fujinon. I've got all the lenses, the V8, a spare groundglass, pentax meter, 3 filters, loupe, some step up rings, darkcloth and 4 holders in an osprey porter 46 and I'm a tick under 30 lbs. So don't let anyone tell you a lightweight 8x10 kit isn't possible - just needs a bit of planning. Strap on the Gitzo CF with 3way head and it's not bad.
Keep at it.
Tim

Merg Ross
7-Dec-2008, 10:42
I agree with what others have suggested. Retire the ball-head, you will have a better field experience with the 8x10. Be patient, with a little more practice you should be ready for an 11x14 in six months to a year.

Larry Menzin
7-Dec-2008, 10:58
I dragged my Arca 8x10 around yesterday on a great sunny day. I do use an Arca B1g ballhead and have a couple of heavier lenses. My most recent purchase (on its way) is a 155mm Grandagon-N. That will add anotheer 4lbs to my load!

BarryS
7-Dec-2008, 17:08
Thanks everyone for the great advice and encouragement. I'll be soldiering on with 8 x 10--hopefully with a more reasonable setup. Some of these things I suppose I already knew, but I've got a stubborn streak. I hear everyone on the tripod and head--maybe I can find a bigger carbon fiber pod and use that nice Ries head. This was my first outing with the Vitax and I probably overestimated both my and the V8's ability to handle the thing gracefully. I do have some smaller plasmats, but I got the Vitax in anticipation of wet plate where I'll need the speed. I'm also very interested in a the looks of older lenses for a series I'm doing. Maybe I'll look for a slower smaller petzval in the meantime. The V8 was also a little ornery in the cold. I've posted one of the photos below. The sky is a little funky, but this was my first try with APHS film (so I could use a lenscap as a shutter) and I still have to nail down the development.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/4679/greatfallsvitax1ajs1.jpg

Drew Bedo
8-Dec-2008, 19:31
Hello Barry,

Have you tried a large wheeled stroller for hauling your LF kit around.? There have been a few threads on this and many feel that a jogging stroller works out pretty well.

I myself have attached a back-pack frame to a golf bag cart and strapped on my LowePro pack. Takes the weight off your shoulder and it will go over about any footpath; folds up too.

John Powers
8-Dec-2008, 19:57
[QUOTE=BarryS;418365]I When I'm shooting 4 X 5 I feel like an artist, but with the 8 x 10--it's more like being in a wrestling match. It was in the 30's today and I felt so clumsy with the 'dorff--it felt like being on the brink of catastrophe. /QUOTE]

Like most equipment, the more you use it in diverse situations the better you will become. If not it will become painfully obvious that you should be doing something else or using something else.

At age 68 I found carrying the gear then setting up completely exhausting and that was a 4x5. I read about someone using a babyjogger, another a cart. I use this one. http://babyjogger.com/performancesingle.htm

I carry the camera set up on the tripod with the spikes through the foot pad. I set up the tripod on site, open the camera, and add a lens from the bag in the seat. The film holders go on the rail under the seat.

The jogger has allowed me to use the 4x5, then move up to 8x10, then up to 7x17. It also allows me to go out two miles from the car on trails or across fields. The right tools do help.

Keep the faith and keep on trying.

John

goamules
8-Dec-2008, 20:51
I'll tell you what weighs a lot with wetplate; the darkbox or tent and the 5 gallons of water you have to have with you! That's why I have mules! But seriously, landscape lenses work fine for WP, you don't need speed if you have a steady tripod, and your subject isn't moving. 10 sec exposure is typical, even at f16 or so. I do like 5x7 for carry though.

Dominique Cesari
9-Dec-2008, 06:00
Buy a 300 mm Nikkor M or Fujinon C, replace the ball head by a Sinar pan/tilt on a levelling base, and enjoy.

BarryS
9-Dec-2008, 15:04
I *knew* someone would bring up the stroller. :) Honestly, something with wheels sounds good--especially once I start doing wet plate. Maybe some sort of rolling darkbox with a camera compartment. The mules are a good suggestion--do you think they'd be happy in a townhouse?

In the meantime, I'll see if I can find a lens that has a similar feel to the Vitax at 1/4 of the weight. Unfortunately, I'm way too happy with the look of the Vitax, but maybe a smaller Petzval will do the job.

Jim Galli
9-Dec-2008, 16:12
The sky is a little funky, but this was my first try with APHS film (so I could use a lenscap as a shutter) and I still have to nail down the development.



Pretty impressive picture for a 1st try with the ortho film. congrats.

Drew Wiley
9-Dec-2008, 16:21
As I got older I discovered how important it was to keep my knees strong. So after
loading the pack with the 8x10 and Ries tripod, I'd strap on a full 5-gal water jug
(jerry can) too, and sometimes also an iron machinists vise. Then I'd go find the steepest hill around. Then at the top of the hill I'd dump out the water, usually on myself. The problem was, the backpack straps kept breaking. I was also afraid of being seen by the wrong kind of person and getting committed to an asylum. So now I just carry the pack with the 8x10 and the Ries. People still think I'm insane. Maybe
they're right.

Frank Petronio
9-Dec-2008, 17:04
A few thumbtacks in your shoes will toughen you up too. No socks.

BarryS
9-Dec-2008, 21:25
Pretty impressive picture for a 1st try with the ortho film. congrats.

Thanks. I used your advice to develop for 4X the time from when the image first appears and that worked pretty well for density. I developed a single sheet at a time in an 11x14 tray with a lot of agitation, but the sky was still a bit streaky, so I'm going to see if drum development on a roller is an improvement. I used HC-110 replenisher 1:200, and that also may not be ideal. I'll try your Rodinal mix or LC-1 and see if that also helps.

Drew--I'd say the Vitax is a pretty good stand-in for the iron vise. Maybe ULF should be an Olympic event?

Frank--I was cursing the devil that designed those front standard screws on the Deardorff--they're normally a pain and friggin ridiculous in the cold.

Gene McCluney
11-Dec-2008, 09:58
Regarding your sky streaks. Are you doing a water pre-soak before going into the developer? This will usually help eliminate defects such as this. Also, for tray development, you should do nice even rocking motion, lifting the tray along one side, and lowering it, creating a wave motion in the developer. (for one sheet at a time developing.) I would go with a 3 minute water presoak, though as the main problem solver.

BarryS
11-Dec-2008, 11:18
Gene--I did a 2 minute pre-soak--which removed most of the anti-halation dye, and developed a single sheet at a time with constant agitation. My development time was 5-6 minutes, so maybe I need to dilute more and develop longer. I tried the HC-110 replenisher as a lark because I haven't had a chance to get the chems for LC-1 yet.

Mark Sampson
12-Dec-2008, 12:14
High-contrast film in a low-contrast developer is a recipe for unevenness and streaking.
Those problems can be cured but it's going to take some careful practice.

jon.oman
12-Dec-2008, 12:46
High-contrast film in a low-contrast developer is a recipe for unevenness and streaking.
Those problems can be cured but it's going to take some careful practice.

Has anyone tried to use a rotary processor like the Jobo CPE-2? Would that help with the unevenness, or would it bring in other issues?

Jon

BarryS
12-Dec-2008, 12:59
Has anyone tried to use a rotary processor like the Jobo CPE-2? Would that help with the unevenness, or would it bring in other issues?

Jon

I started with tray processing because without APHS experience, I wanted to develop by inspection. This weekend I'll be trying rotary processing with a drum roller.

Vaughn
12-Dec-2008, 13:12
I started with tray processing because without APHS experience, I wanted to develop by inspection. This weekend I'll be trying rotary processing with a drum roller.

I'd love to hear of your results! thanks! Vaughn

BarryS
12-Dec-2008, 13:35
Sure Vaughn, I'll definitely be posting my results--good or bad. I have a 36 cm Heliar I'll be trying out this weekend and like the Vitax--it doesn't have a shutter.

jon.oman
12-Dec-2008, 15:51
I started with tray processing because without APHS experience, I wanted to develop by inspection. This weekend I'll be trying rotary processing with a drum roller.

I too would like to know how it goes. I'm planning on using my Jobo for this as well.

Jon