Sinar Norma and Sinar Mechanical shutter

[Gregory Ng]

Frankly, I am missing the circular apertures of barrel lenses that I have got mounted into new shutters. Besides, the costs were considerable. Is the Sinar Mechanical shutter compatible with the Sinar Norma 4 x 5? I like to start experimenting with the smaller format before moving onto 8 x 10.

Thanks for all advice.

Greg

[Frank Petronio]

Sure that is the ideal, they fit up and down the model range, old and new. There was a green Norma era one, and several later black/chrome then all black variations later on.

The DB lensmounts and all those variations are a huge pain in the butt. Instead get an extra standard and regular or bag 4x5 bellows. The shutter rides on the middle standard and you can mount your lenses on inexpensive flat lensboards.

Try to get the special shutter release cable with any shutter you buy, otherwise it uses a special long throw release that only Sinar sells for around $150 (or try eBay). There is another cable that can tie into the back of a Sinar to automagically close the shutter when a film holder is inserted. Pretty slick but also a bit finicky. Some people just use a long but tiny screwdriver to fire the shutter. The shutter can have a bit more of a kick than your normal Copal shutters, so practice to make it smoother and use a really solid tripod and lock everything nice and snug.

[Gregory Ng]

Thanks Frank and also for your earlier threads on this topic.

[Lngroller]

I was curious about how you mount lenses with rear elements that protrude too far. is that what most do, get another front standard and bellows to mount the shutter further back? am I understanding that correctly?



Sure that is the ideal, they fit up and down the model range, old and new. There was a green Norma era one, and several later black/chrome then all black variations later on.

The DB lensmounts and all those variations are a huge pain in the butt. Instead get an extra standard and regular or bag 4x5 bellows. The shutter rides on the middle standard and you can mount your lenses on inexpensive flat lensboards.

Try to get the special shutter release cable with any shutter you buy, otherwise it uses a special long throw release that only Sinar sells for around $150 (or try eBay). There is another cable that can tie into the back of a Sinar to automagically close the shutter when a film holder is inserted. Pretty slick but also a bit finicky. Some people just use a long but tiny screwdriver to fire the shutter. The shutter can have a bit more of a kick than your normal Copal shutters, so practice to make it smoother and use a really solid tripod and lock everything nice and snug.

[Tin Can]

Yes

[Daniel Unkefer]

I was curious about how you mount lenses with rear elements that protrude too far.

The lens with a protruding rear cell needs to be "forward mounted" so that it does not touch the shutter blades. Sinar Norma would do this at the factory for you. They could also mount "mickey mouse ears" on the board so you had a spring loaded auto aperture. The most deluxe way to go was a forward mounted lens, with a built-in shutter. This gave you the most choices in how to use the lens. If you are good with your hands, you can make something up. Or have a photo machinist make the forward mounting cone for you. In the instructions Sinar Norma indicates that the rear lens ideally should be within 1mm of the blades.

[Greg]

I was curious about how you mount lenses with rear elements that protrude too far. is that what most do, get another front standard and bellows to mount the shutter further back? am I understanding that correctly?

"Top Hat" Sinar lens boards do exist. This one I used to mount 2 different Petzval lenses in front of a Sinar shutter. The extension part is fastened to the lens board with 4 screws. I have owned 2 of them and neither was OEM. I. believe that they were offered by Horseman but have never been able to confirm that. The recessed Sinar lens boards that I have owned on the other hand are stamped? from one piece of metal and unfortunately the extension is not reversible.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51001447497_8d71c987a1_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kGPKtF)Twin Lens 4x5 Sinar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kGPKtF) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

On the top section of my twin lens Sinar Norma, is an original Sinar Norma forward mounted board from the Sinar factory. This one is a chrome Schneider 240mm f5.6 Sinar Symmar. This one does not have the built in compur shutter, it is a barrel mount with "mickey mouse" aperture controls. The lens can be set from behind the camera, no moving forward and back to set it up. The deluxe version had a spring loaded aperture mechanism that stopped the lens down and cocked the shutter when you inserted the film holder.

[Lngroller]

Thank you all for the info. Moving from calumet c400 series 4x5 to Sinar P 8x10 and just now learning the sinar system.

[Bernice Loui]

There are three basic versions of the Sinar shutter.

1)~Made in Switzerland with the 1/32 second on the far right hand side of the shutter speed dial. This is the original Sinar Norma shutter. Does NOT work with Sinar DB mounted lenses as it does not have the aperture scale or mechanism to drive the DB mount lens aperture.

2)~Made in Japan Copal with the flash sync (X flash sync only) connector on a short cable. Much of the metal trim is silver colored anodized aluminum. Works with Sinar DB mounted lenses, has the lens aperture scale on the edge. Note, the aperture scale is interchangeable full aperture of f4 or f5.6, The shutter opening diameter is the SAME_just the aperture scale is different.

3)~Made in Japan Copal with the flash sync on a connector side of the shutter. The short cable from the previous version is gone. Works with DB mounted lenses. Body is mostly black with silver high lighted lettering.

Shutter release cables came in essentially two versions. The Original Norma shutter cable is chrome plated wound wire with the smaller shutter release button. These expand lots to trip the shutter. Not the best, but works. The later version is all black with a larger plastic shutter release button and locking collar. This is the preferred version with insignificant expansion when the shutter is tripped.

Hold the shutter release button down for the entire duration of the shutter cycle time to prevent the shutter kick back when the shutter closes. The shutter kick back does not appear to make any difference in vibration or camera movement that might cause image blur during the shutter cycle.


4)~Sinar Digital electronic shutter. Shutter speeds from 64 seconds to 1/500 sec. Fully integrates with the Sinar Expolux system for metering back and exposure control. Reads out DB lens aperture settings, EV, number of electronic flash cycles and much more. Serious time saver for studio photographers back in the day when each sheet of film exposed makes a difference and each sheet of film should be best as possible


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

"Top Hat" lens mountings on Sinar lens boards are usually made to a specific lens and made by a machinist as needed. Have a number of lenses for Sinar mounted this way. There was a LFF post on how this is typically done:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?159521-360mm-f4-5-Schneider-Xenar-to-Sinar-board-part-1&highlight=360mm+xenar


Bernice



"Top Hat" Sinar lens boards do exist. This one I used to mount 2 different Petzval lenses in front of a Sinar shutter. The extension part is fastened to the lens board with 4 screws. I have owned 2 of them and neither was OEM. I. believe that they were offered by Horseman but have never been able to confirm that. The recessed Sinar lens boards that I have owned on the other hand are stamped? from one piece of metal and unfortunately the extension is not reversible.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50189329028_191eb124a8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jt4qX7)8x10 to 5x7 Norma Special Bellows 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jt4qX7) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Norma Special Bellows arrived from the UK, Camera Bellows Ltd made the original bellows for Sinar Norma and Keith still has all the the original bellows drawings. Pretty kewl you can still get these from the original manufacturer of Sinar Norma. This one goes 8x10 to 5x7, then the regular 5x7 to 4x5. Very Very stable. This combo is in the original Norma catalog. Shown with my 360 chrome Componon enlarging lens. Mounted to the Norma board with a Durst enlarger "mounting cup" on the back. Repair Guru Ken Ruth "Photography on Bald Mountain" suggested to me that I get all the chrome Componons, that was a really great idea. They were quite cheap at the time and quite usuable, this one very similar in use to my Sinar Norma chrome 360mm Symmar. The tripod is a FOBA C40 which is also in the original Norma catalog for use with the 8x10 Norma. You could fire a howitzer off of this tripod, but I wouldn't take it mountain climbing. :) With a closely parked car and an able assistant, I will be taking two of these out perhaps this shooting season

This particular 360 Comp has a Durst heavy metal cone threaded onto the back of it, so it's already forward mounted on a flat Norma board. All I had to do was cut the hole to fit the Durst cone, and secure it to the flat board with heavy mounting screws. Whole thing took a couple of hours to make in my workshop.

[kl2081]

Hi Bernice,
How about this shutter? It has only B and M setting, nothing else.
See photo: 213918
Is the M=1/32?

[Bernice Loui]

Possible, never seen this version. Are the shutter speed numbers on the other side of this dial?
Does not appear to have a aperture dial on the side noting this is a pre DB shutter. Could be from the end of the Norma era before the DB era due to color. Norma era shutters are typically Sinar olive green, this one is black.

Historically, M flash sync is for flash bulbs, about 20 millisecond delay to allow for the bulb burn to reach peak intensity.
During the era when the Sinar Norma was a current production offering flash bulbs with LF was VERY common due to the
intensity of light they can produce which is remarkable for their physical size.


Bernice



Hi Bernice,
How about this shutter? It has only B and M setting, nothing else.
See photo: 213918
Is the M=1/32?

[Daniel Unkefer]

This is also for me the first time I have seen this vintage of shutter. Just aren't many around. I do know for sure that very early Sinar Normas (prototypes and such) were all black, and I don't see those hardly ever, either. But Catlabs has a black early Norma standard frame right now so a few are around I guess. Production Normas were grey green

Why don't you put it on shutter tester, if the springs and/or escapements are tired it could be kinda off anyway. Dosen't matter as long as it is consistent

[kl2081]

Hi Bernice,
Thank you for your reply, really appreciate.
See the other side of the shutter attached.
213961

[interneg]

How about this shutter? It has only B and M setting, nothing else.
See photo: 213918
Is the M=1/32?

Resurrecting this thread as this is an example of the 'Simple Shutter' that Sinar made for the Norma, along with the more common one with full speed range.

'M' = 1/25

It's effectively a Sinar system compatible version of a Packard/ Studio shutter. I'd hope the M mode is a bit quieter than a regular Sinar shutter's attempt at making a Pentax 6x7's mirror return seem quiet and gentle. If it is, then I fear it's something I'll need to start looking for.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I suspect because it's black, it's a very early (possibly prototype) shutter. First Norma cameras -were- all black, then became Olive Green when put into production. Arca Swiss made a lot of the parts. Maybe something just available in the showroom. A few of my Normas have been repainted, they look good. 95% original good enough.

Hmmm None of my catalogs show the Simple Shutter. Interesting. Kind of limiting, though.

Some of my Norma Shutters are louder and some more gentle than others, none of them vibrate at all. A few have escapements that have had a hard life, George Brown says "change speeds slowly and gently" with those. Mac at Camtronics has helped me a lot getting the bugs out of these units. The sync cords into the shutter frequently break off, I have all kinds of repairs in my collection.

[interneg]

I suspect because it's black, it's a very early (possibly prototype) shutter. First Norma cameras -were- all black, then became Olive Green when put into production. Arca Swiss made a lot of the parts. Maybe something just available in the showroom. A few of my Normas have been repainted, they look good. 95% original good enough.

Hmmm None of my catalogs show the Simple Shutter. Interesting. Kind of limiting, though.

Some of my Norma Shutters are louder and some more gentle than others, none of them vibrate at all. A few have escapements that have had a hard life, George Brown says "change speeds slowly and gently" with those. Mac at Camtronics has helped me a lot getting the bugs out of these units. The sync cords into the shutter frequently break off, I have all kinds of repairs in my collection.

I really doubt it's a prototype, the thing that's slightly puzzling is that the paint texture almost looks more like the later black paint than the Norma paint texture.

More importantly however, most of the Sinar Norma catalogues that can be found easily are from at least the end of the 1950s if not later, by which point the escapement had been stuck into the shutter unit that had initially been innovated by one of the Oschwalds (interesting that Arca never seem to have done their own shutter unit) for Koch in 1951. What is unclear is when the escapement etc was first added to the basic shutter - the 1/25 speed 'M' is not incidental, it's the correct sync for the most powerful class of flashbulbs of the era - which when the standard colour film of the early 1950s was E1 Ektachrome (ASA 10 +/- 1/3 stop) was probably seen as essential (and we must not forget that quite a lot of the original target market also probably had barrel lenses or older non synchro shutters, each of which would have needed its own solenoid - we forget that the Synchro Compur was bleeding edge tech at that point in time), but by the advent of E3 Ektachrome at the end of the decade (never mind the huge changes in B&W emulsions) will have been seen as hopelessly archaic - by which point Sinar was really starting to become a truly major force in the world of commercial photography. Some of the old Linhof manuals (sales propaganda if you want to be unkind) go into considerable detail about how to light vast industrial spaces with truly voluminous amounts of seriously large flashbulbs to impersonate 'natural' lighting (never mind the often significant amount of retouching done).

Either way, the common Sinar shutter is pretty loud - and if you've ever been inside one, you can see why. On the other hand, I wonder if you can get the pin mechanism in the camera backs to talk to Prontor Professional or Copal Press shutters...